Worldbuilding Realism Consultation Thread Mk. 4

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Disadvantages of issuing cops a flashlight with a hard handle as a baton?

what would the benefits be

you can do it but i don't see why you wouldn't just be issuing both a flashlight and a baton

it would probably make your (main) flashlight bigger and bulkier than you'd need/want it to be.

what i do is i issue a chest/anglehead flashlight just like this



it can probably fit just fine into or clip onto a chest pocket on a police uniform, or just put in/clip in to a MOLLE pouch or w/e - this way you can have practically a handsfree light which lets you do whatever else with your hands (like using a weapon or tool or w/e) without having to pull out your pistol (with light) and it's more elegant than wearing a headlamp or using a helmet w/ flashlight (if and when you do have it on).

in addition to this you can have a regular small flashlight as well i guess for pointing at stuff/people

in any case i'm not saying your idea is bad as it's basically already been done IRL i think just that it wouldn't necessarily be the best idea for your main and especially not for your ONLY flashlight

just my 2 cents doe

[Allanea]

Everything I know about police suggests to me you should have at least two flashlights. Or maybe three.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Everything I know about police suggests to me you should have at least two flashlights. Or maybe three.

Well come to think about it my police would essentially have at least 4 at any given time:

• the chest-mounted flashlight (which could also be pulled out and used like a regular flashlight)
• a regular flashlight
• the light on their duty pistol
• the light on their taser

[Purpelia]

Disadvantages of issuing cops a flashlight with a hard handle as a baton?

what would the benefits be

you can do it but i don't see why you wouldn't just be issuing both a flashlight and a baton

it would probably make your (main) flashlight bigger and bulkier than you'd need/want it to be.

what i do is i issue a chest/anglehead flashlight just like this



it can probably fit just fine into or clip onto a chest pocket on a police uniform, or just put in/clip in to a MOLLE pouch or w/e - this way you can have practically a handsfree light which lets you do whatever else with your hands (like using a weapon or tool or w/e) without having to pull out your pistol (with light) and it's more elegant than wearing a headlamp or using a helmet w/ flashlight (if and when you do have it on).

in addition to this you can have a regular small flashlight as well i guess for pointing at stuff/people

in any case i'm not saying your idea is bad as it's basically already been done IRL i think just that it wouldn't necessarily be the best idea for your main and especially not for your ONLY flashlight

just my 2 cents doe

Why are you issuing police with infantry webbing? Are they supposed to be policing a war zone / america?

[Taihei Tengoku]

Operators on the streets of Londonabad, capital of al-Bion

[Purpelia]

But like england is a nation under siege by a terrorist threat. That's basically policing a war zone.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

But like england is a nation under siege by a terrorist threat. That's basically policing a war zone.

they didn't just get them out of a sudden though i think.



if you're going to give your police what are essentially utility/tactical vests (if not even stab/bullet-proof) you might as well just make them MOLLE as well. or not. whatever.

these are less tactilol than the other brit cops



but you can see there's pouches and a place to put their radio . you could just have the flashlight on the other side.

[Purpelia]

Basically don't even issue my officers with firearms. And generally I don't like the idea of police looking militaristic.

[Crookfur]

Basically don't even issue my officers with firearms. And generally I don't like the idea of police looking militaristic.

Vests are just very handy ways of carrying stuff. Even when UK police aren't wearing stab proof vests they still use light mesh vests for carrying stuff that needs to be got at regularly, cheifly thier radio but other handy things like pens, small torches, latex gloves etc.

Depending on the cut and style of the vest they could easily look more "out doors activity" than "storm trooper".

[The Akasha Colony]

Basically don't even issue my officers with firearms. And generally I don't like the idea of police looking militaristic.

Vests for police use predate the use of vests in the military. They're very functional garments and depending on cut and style can be favored by a wide range of different groups. The modern MOLLE plate carrier is actually a pretty recent phenomenon, historically troops used various webbing ensembles that resembled suspenders and a large belt more than anything else. But I suppose these are also out of favor in Purpelia? Along with other such "militaristic" things as shirt pockets?

[Allanea]

But like england is a nation under siege by a terrorist threat. That's basically policing a war zone.

No.

It's just not.

England is meaningfully safer than the majority even of West European countries.

[Purpelia]

But like england is a nation under siege by a terrorist threat. That's basically policing a war zone.

No.

It's just not.

England is meaningfully safer than the majority even of West European countries.

In practice certainly. But not in perception. In practice most western police forces don't need firearms, stab proof vests or anything like that either. But when it comes to many things, police equipment included perception shapes appearance.


Anyway, my ideal look for a police officer is actually closer to that soldier TAC posted than to the british police vests C did because it looks less military and overtly threatening and because Purpelia seriously has a thing about the police not being allowed to have a M of militarization due to political reasons. TLDR the army is federal but the police forces are not and so they are literally not even allowed to own firearms so as to ensure no duke can backdoor in a ducal army by arming his police force. And like even if they were issued body armor it would have to look reasonably civilian.

[Tekeristan]

No.

It's just not.

England is meaningfully safer than the majority even of West European countries.

In practice certainly. But not in perception. In practice most western police forces don't need firearms, stab proof vests or anything like that either. But when it comes to many things, police equipment included perception shapes appearance.


Anyway, my ideal look for a police officer is actually closer to that soldier TAC posted than to the british police vests C did because it looks less military and overtly threatening and because Purpelia seriously has a thing about the police not being allowed to have a M of militarization due to political reasons. TLDR the army is federal but the police forces are not and so they are literally not even allowed to own firearms so as to ensure no duke can backdoor in a ducal army by arming his police force. And like even if they were issued body armor it would have to look reasonably civilian.

Terrorism's intention is to change the perception.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

No.

It's just not.

England is meaningfully safer than the majority even of West European countries.

In practice certainly. But not in perception. In practice most western police forces don't need firearms, stab proof vests or anything like that either. But when it comes to many things, police equipment included perception shapes appearance.

no. this is dumb because it either implies that responding to threats in a proportional manner, as in, with proportionally well-armed/protected police in like a tiered system where you have beat cops, armed response units and finally one or two levels of SWAT or whatever you want to call it, is doable, and the base level run-off-the-mill coppers have none of the "firearms, stabproof vests or anything like that" as you've said - OR - you face no threat more serious than a rowdy soccer moms or 12 year olds listening to loud music and smoking weed on the street or "tagging up the hood", or at least, your base level copper shouldn't run into anything more serious than those

We both know implying the second variant being true is intellectually dishonest. Exactly your "base level" copper, either by themselves, in a pair or small group, will run into and have to handle themselves in situations involving anything from drunken brawls at your local pub to people high off PCP or bath salts or w/e who just shrugged off 2 TASER shots, 3 pepper sprays, 7 baton strikes to the peepee and 14 blows to the head (if you even have the aforementioned equipment) and still actively seek to gauge your cops and anyone else's eyes out to get rid of the "demons", to having to fight/immobilize anything ranging from individuals up to gangs/small mobs armed with anything varying from bladed or blunt "instruments" to firearms, depending on where you live.

the frequency of such events, where equipment that is more than "not firearms, stab-proof vests or anything liek that" would become useful or even necessary, would of course vary by country, neighborhood, and socioeconomic climate among other things, but i get the sense that you assume it to be rarer than it actually is, even for :developed western nations: , irl

either that or your police will become glorified neighborhood watch and meter maids, as they will now have to (immediately) call in for back up 85% of the time anyone attacks them with anything more than bad words - or you will have martyr cops where signing up for the force comes with an implied increase of 9001% of chances to die on the job compared to average work, because you now have to fight knife and gun wielding assailants or mobs with :fists: because stabproof vests or firearms or anything like that is 'not needed'

the problem is that even as a "beat" cop, you can get surprised, ambushed, have to defend yourself before backup arrives or even before you get the chance to call in for backup, and you can find yourself amidst a situation that the "policing engineers" designed your uber-tactilol SWAT for , but lol i guess too bad for you. (you need to at least survive)

[Allanea]

It is in fact extremely rare in most countries.

If violent armed attackers on UK cops were even a semi-regular occurence, we'd see a lot more cops being killed there. ('Back-up' being available won't really help if you're getting stabbed or shot right now).

In a country where crime levels are low like they're in the UK or Canada, the average beat cop doesn't need a gun at all.

[It's worth saying that killing a cop is something that serves no value for the average criminal, and is likely to increase exponentially the chance they'll get caught (and put in prison for life, most likely) or killed.]

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

It is in fact extremely rare in most countries.

If violent armed attackers on UK cops were even a semi-regular occurence, we'd see a lot more cops being killed there. ('Back-up' being available won't really help if you're getting stabbed or shot right now).

In a country where crime levels are low like they're in the UK or Canada, the average beat cop doesn't need a gun at all.

[It's worth saying that killing a cop is something that serves no value for the average criminal, and is likely to increase exponentially the chance they'll get caught (and put in prison for life, most likely) or killed.]

the West isn't just UK/Canada.

ask your run-off-the-mill American cop how many times they've had to deploy/actually use their Taser for example (you cannot use one as a deterrent as long as you don't have it on you, either)

Something tells me the answer you'd get would lead to the conclusion of it being at least a "semi-regular occurence"

edit: it doesn't even have to be a "semi-regular occurence" for stuff like tasers or stab vests being "justified" or whatever you want to call it, either.

you don't wear a hard hat on a construction site because shit regularly falls from above or buildings regularly collapse in it

you don't have fire extinguishers in a school because there's a fire every day/week/month

[Chinese Peoples]

It is in fact extremely rare in most countries.

If violent armed attackers on UK cops were even a semi-regular occurence, we'd see a lot more cops being killed there. ('Back-up' being available won't really help if you're getting stabbed or shot right now).

In a country where crime levels are low like they're in the UK or Canada, the average beat cop doesn't need a gun at all.

[It's worth saying that killing a cop is something that serves no value for the average criminal, and is likely to increase exponentially the chance they'll get caught (and put in prison for life, most likely) or killed.]

the West isn't just UK/Canada.

ask your run-off-the-mill American cop how many times they've had to deploy/actually use their Taser for example (you cannot use one as a deterrent as long as you don't have it on you, either)

Something tells me the answer you'd get would lead to the conclusion of it being at least a "semi-regular occurence"

edit: it doesn't even have to be a "semi-regular occurence" for stuff like tasers or stab vests being "justified" or whatever you want to call it, either.

you don't wear a hard hat on a construction site because shit regularly falls from above or buildings regularly collapse in it

you don't have fire extinguishers in a school because there's a fire every day/week/month

Hooray American exceptionalism?

[Costa Fierro]

Disadvantages of issuing cops a flashlight with a hard handle as a baton?

You might break the flashlight.

[Allanea]

the West isn't just UK/Canada.

ask your run-off-the-mill American cop how many times they've had to deploy/actually use their Taser for example (you cannot use one as a deterrent as long as you don't have it on you, either)

Something tells me the answer you'd get would lead to the conclusion of it being at least a "semi-regular occurence"

edit: it doesn't even have to be a "semi-regular occurence" for stuff like tasers or stab vests being "justified" or whatever you want to call it, either.

you don't wear a hard hat on a construction site because shit regularly falls from above or buildings regularly collapse in it

you don't have fire extinguishers in a school because there's a fire every day/week/month

The US has an unusually high level of violent crime. This is not fully explicable by 'lol guns' because even non-gun violent crime is very high in the US compared to most Western countries.

Most cops in a modern society - indeed most cops even in the US - will never ever need a firearm.

So while it's possible to issue firearms to cops, therer's no needs.

[Gallia-]

If you are a monocultural/"high-trust" nation-state you can get away with unarmed cops. Why you would bother to do it is an enigma, though, considering only the UK, Iceland, Ireland, and Norway bother to do it in Europe IRL.

It is a highly unusual decision by any metric, rooted in philosophical decisions rather than common sense, since common sense suggests that all policemen should be armed to prevent or dispense of banditry. Considering even historical monocultures like Sweden, Finland, and Denmark have armed police, it's not really related to crime rate either, so that's a non-starter as an argument. Otherwise, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland would have no armed police at all because they aren't multicultural/violent societies like the USA or Russia, and that is clearly false.

It's not even really related to trust reasons or predictability of groups. Low trust/multicultural societies, which are heterogeneous (as a result they generally have problems interpreting future actions of other groups) and typically quite violent (cf. USA, Russia, South Africa, etc.), have armed police almost as a rule. But it's not limited to those countries, of course. Countries which face substantial outside threats also tend to have armed police (cf. Israel, West Germany). Yet, countries which have neither of these problems, historically or presently, also have armed police (cf. Denmark, Sweden, Japan). Very few countries lack armed police, actually, and I can only think of four off the top of my head, which I've mentioned.

So if we suppose that armed police are somehow related to crime rates (a highly plausible link as any), then countries like Denmark, Sweden, and Japan should not have any armed police. Well, at least Japan shouldn't, since its crime rate isn't just low but also dropping. Except all of those countries have armed police. Probably more for the reasons of "everyone else does it" than anything else, or the very pragmatic reason of "letting police officers die for the cost of a handgun is a bit over the top".

It's quite hard to imagine a reason why you wouldn't arm police outside of simply copying Peel's Principles, which itself is an extremely Anglocentric historical artifact, because almost every country in the world has armed police. Regardless of the conditions of law and order in their respective land. Regardless of the amount of violence committed in their countries.

[Purpelia]

It's primarily for political reasons as I said. Although Purpelia most definitively is a low crime high thrust monocultural nation with basically no foreign migration. So that helps as well. And there is a federal level organization that handles actual armed policing and works as a combination of SWAT and gendarmerie for those few situations when someone holds up a bank. But like they hardly ever get called in for obvious reasons.

Purpelia just isn't america.

[Gallia-]

It is in fact extremely rare in most countries.

If violent armed attackers on UK cops were even a semi-regular occurence, we'd see a lot more cops being killed there. ('Back-up' being available won't really help if you're getting stabbed or shot right now).

In a country where crime levels are low like they're in the UK or Canada, the average beat cop doesn't need a gun at all.

[It's worth saying that killing a cop is something that serves no value for the average criminal, and is likely to increase exponentially the chance they'll get caught (and put in prison for life, most likely) or killed.]

the West isn't just UK/Canada.

ask your run-off-the-mill American cop how many times they've had to deploy/actually use their Taser for example (you cannot use one as a deterrent as long as you don't have it on you, either)

Something tells me the answer you'd get would lead to the conclusion of it being at least a "semi-regular occurence"

edit: it doesn't even have to be a "semi-regular occurence" for stuff like tasers or stab vests being "justified" or whatever you want to call it, either.

you don't wear a hard hat on a construction site because shit regularly falls from above or buildings regularly collapse in it

you don't have fire extinguishers in a school because there's a fire every day/week/month

Allanea just goes to the dentist when his tooth aches.

VSL outweighs the paltry cost of equipping and training police officers with firearms. Especially if they're expected to pay for the training themselves, since you can write that off under paychecks instead of training expenses.

[Allanea]

The countries that don't have armed police don't refuse to have armed police because they are trying to save the $400 per cop in the costs of a pistol. They typically do so for ethical or cultural reasons. They're not however 'stupid' for refusing to do so, because they're evidently not paying any serious price for this refusal.

The total amount of police officers killed by guns, knives, or any other such violence in the UK is less than one a year. (In the past 17 years, 10 were shot or stabbed dead, including two who were led into a grenade ambush). The British believe that , given the circumstances in their country, the desire to not have an armed police force for traditional and ideological reasons (especially given most UK police oppose the proposals) is worth the risk of losing one or two men in as many years.

Purpelia has virtually no violent crime, so it could either arm police, or not, based on its philosophical outlook.

[Allanea]

Just so we're clear, the Value of Statistical Life in the UK is approximately between $4 and $6 million.

If you could - through issuing every cop in the UK with a gun - save every single one of these ten people - you'd need to somehow manage to arm and train all of the UK's cops at a cost of less than $60 million over 17 years, which I am quite sure is impossible.

[I didnt vote for Trump]

The countries that don't have armed police don't refuse to have armed police because they are trying to save the $400 per cop in the costs of a pistol. They typically do so for ethical or cultural reasons. They're not however 'stupid' for refusing to do so, because they're evidently not paying any serious price for this refusal.

The total amount of police officers killed by guns, knives, or any other such violence in the UK is less than one a year. (In the past 17 years, 10 were shot or stabbed dead, including two who were led into a grenade ambush). The British believe that , given the circumstances in their country, the desire to not have an armed police force for traditional and ideological reasons (especially given most UK police oppose the proposals) is worth the risk of losing one or two men in as many years.

Purpelia has virtually no violent crime, so it could either arm police, or not, based on its philosophical outlook.

There is also a political aspect relating to how the government of the day is perceived as standing on crime, because nothing says "tough on crime!" more so than police with fancy guns standing on every corner. Even though dis-arming police in certain circumstances might actually have a lot of promising benefits, this tends to be political suicide in the west due to how other groups seize upon and interpret it. Opposition parties use it as easy fodder by proclaiming proof that the current government isn't concerned with reducing crime level, and police unions would predictably be outraged.

Take the current situation in the UK; everybody is well aware that placing soldiers on every corner will never totally deter a terrorist but only send them to another location whether they'd like to admit it or not. But they make the public feel inherently safer when they see them and that irrational, emotional response is just enough to justify their current purpose for the masses.