NATION

PASSWORD

Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Type 6

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

Advertisement

Remove ads

Who will OP the next MGVoYN[NM] thread?

Imperializt Russia
39
25%
Anemos Major
52
33%
Questers
8
5%
Dragomere
21
13%
Dostanuot Loj
5
3%
The Kievan People
22
14%
Oaledonia
12
8%
 
Total votes : 159

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:17 pm

The Democratic Republic of Davida wrote:
Often when I read or watch video's about how no Challenger 2's were lost in the 2nd Iraq war and like how that is such an amazing accomplishment, it gets up my nose.

First of all, the only tanks it faced were T54's and secondly, the claim is false.
No it isn't; only Challenger 2s destroyed were from friendly fire.

Why the Challenger 2 is extremely formidable.

1. Mobility. It has a superior suspension system to almost all main battle tanks out there today. The hydrogas is many times easier to maintain than torsion bar and the Challenger also has manually adjustable track tension that makes that job much easier. People talk about how good at mobility the Leopard is but for all intents and purposes, it has no clear advantages over Challenger except road speed (again, designing tanks for competitions doesn't work.) In terms of fording depth and trench crossing, they are equals. They can get over obstacles of almost (we're talking a few centimetres) the same size. They have roughly the same ground pressure (around .9kg/cm2.)

Except Challenger has hydrogas suspension, which makes the ride over rough terrain - i.e. terrain you want to take a tank over - much better, more accurate on the move, and easier on the crew. Yea, Challenger can't go 70kph on a road. But it can match the Leopard 2 over rough terrain and shoot more accurately while doing it.

2. Firepower. Oh but Rheinmetall!! The difference here is minimal. There's nothing that will resist a CHARM 3 but not a DM-63 or an M829A3. At the time of development, CHARM 3 was superior to the US/German munition, but it has since been marginally overtaken; the problem is that rifled guns are always something like 10-15% less muzzle velocity than other guns, but it doesn't really matter. That has something of a low effect: KEP construction is more important. Mass is also pretty important. Just remember it was the L11 rifled gun of the Challenger 1 - not even the upgraded L30 in the Challenger 2, but a gun that was almost 30 years old - that holds the record for longest tank to tank kill in world history. At 5,000 metres. Beyond the stated range of KEP munitions deployed on Leopard and Abrams. With HESH: a notoriously inaccurate munition.

3. Armour. Hard to say - it's all classified. The problem with Challenger is its weaker glacis, comparatively. Also, most of its kit is stored internally, which reduces the risk of a fire on the tank exterior. Anyway, it has since been upgraded with ridiculous quantities of armour, so there's almost no contest here, it's one of the best protected tanks in the world.

4. Fire control. Challenger doesn't have the bad fire control everyone says it does. It has a truly hunter killer capacity, the only problem was that the TOGS kennel was on top of the gun which made it hard to see after firing. Nonetheless, it doesn't stop this Challenger from making 8 hits in 60 seconds on a range. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpJdkoLw5B0&t=5m15s

I may have forgotten some things. It also has a kettle and a toilet :)
Last edited by Questers on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:21 pm

Which APHE rounds you're discussing?
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 pm

Questers wrote:Which APHE rounds you're discussing?


BR412 the best tank shell in WT.

In actuality it would probably be hit by APDS like 3BM8, which is comparable to M728 and other 105mm APDS.
Last edited by Gallia- on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:33 pm

Here's some data by Paul Lakowski.

NB this is pre-armour upgrading of Challenger.

Challenger 2
Lower hull: 590mm KE, 860mm HEAT
Glacis: 660mm KE, 1000mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 100mm KE, 470-90mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 550mm KE, 830-1070mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 150mm KE, 500mm HEAT

Rear hull: 100mm KE, 500mm HEAT
Side hull: 100mm KE, 470-90mm HEAT
Mantlet: 920mm KE, 1700mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 950mm KE, 1600mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 960mm KE, 1450mm HEAT
Side turret: 340mm KE, 520mm HEAT

Leopard 2A5:
Lower hull: 620mm KE, 750mm HEAT
Glacis: 620mm KE, 750mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 190mm KE 670mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 370mm KE, 660mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 90mm KE, 400mm HEAT

Rear hull: 70mm KE, 400mm HEAT
Side hull: 170mm KE, 520mm HEAT
Mantlet: 920mm KE, 2000mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 970mm KE, 2000mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 860mm KE, 1720mm HEAT
Side turret: 290mm KE, 460mm HEAT

M1A2:
Lower hull: 590-650mm KE, 800-970mm HEAT
Glacis: 560-590mm KE, 800-1050mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 160mm KE, 900mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 300mm KE, 480mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 90mm KE, 410mm HEAT

Rear hull: 100mm KE, 500mm HEAT
Side hull: 90mm KE, 680mm HEAT
Mantlet: 880mm KE, 1620mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 900mm KE, 1500mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 880mm KE, 1310mm HEAT
Side turret: 300mm KE, 480mm HEAT

Conclusion: Challenger weak side armour, but less vulnerable to ATGM on turret. M1 Abrams ridiculous side armour protection against HEAT. Leopard critically vulnerable against glacis/lower front hull because of munitions storage, but turret very well protected against ATGM, but much worse against KE. In some areas turret vulnerable to KEP.

Abrams > Challenger > Leopard
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Fordorsia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20431
Founded: Oct 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Fordorsia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:37 pm

Questers wrote:Here's some data by Paul Lakowski.

NB this is pre-armour upgrading of Challenger.

Challenger 2
Lower hull: 590mm KE, 860mm HEAT
Glacis: 660mm KE, 1000mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 100mm KE, 470-90mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 550mm KE, 830-1070mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 150mm KE, 500mm HEAT

Rear hull: 100mm KE, 500mm HEAT
Side hull: 100mm KE, 470-90mm HEAT
Mantlet: 920mm KE, 1700mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 950mm KE, 1600mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 960mm KE, 1450mm HEAT
Side turret: 340mm KE, 520mm HEAT

Leopard 2A5:
Lower hull: 620mm KE, 750mm HEAT
Glacis: 620mm KE, 750mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 190mm KE 670mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 370mm KE, 660mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 90mm KE, 400mm HEAT

Rear hull: 70mm KE, 400mm HEAT
Side hull: 170mm KE, 520mm HEAT
Mantlet: 920mm KE, 2000mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 970mm KE, 2000mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 860mm KE, 1720mm HEAT
Side turret: 290mm KE, 460mm HEAT

M1A2:
Lower hull: 590-650mm KE, 800-970mm HEAT
Glacis: 560-590mm KE, 800-1050mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 160mm KE, 900mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 300mm KE, 480mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 90mm KE, 410mm HEAT

Rear hull: 100mm KE, 500mm HEAT
Side hull: 90mm KE, 680mm HEAT
Mantlet: 880mm KE, 1620mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 900mm KE, 1500mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 880mm KE, 1310mm HEAT
Side turret: 300mm KE, 480mm HEAT

Conclusion: Challenger weak side armour, but less vulnerable to ATGM on turret. M1 Abrams ridiculous side armour protection against HEAT. Leopard critically vulnerable against glacis/lower front hull because of munitions storage, but turret very well protected against ATGM, but much worse against KE. In some areas turret vulnerable to KEP.

Abrams > Challenger > Leopard


But the Leopard has a cooler name.
Pro: Swords
Anti: Guns

San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad

Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.

Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.

Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:39 pm

Areas colour coded in red that can definitely be penetrated by 3BM46, and in blue probably/possibly, and green not at all.

Inb4 T-80U shoots through lower front or glacis of Leopard 2 and detonates all ammunition.

Challenger 2
Lower hull: 590mm KE, 860mm HEAT
Glacis: 660mm KE, 1000mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 100mm KE, 470-90mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 550mm KE, 830-1070mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 150mm KE, 500mm HEAT

Rear hull: 100mm KE, 500mm HEAT
Side hull: 100mm KE, 470-90mm HEAT
Mantlet: 920mm KE, 1700mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 950mm KE, 1600mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 960mm KE, 1450mm HEAT
Side turret: 340mm KE, 520mm HEAT

Leopard 2A5:
Lower hull: 620mm KE, 750mm HEAT
Glacis: 620mm KE, 750mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 190mm KE 670mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 370mm KE, 660mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 90mm KE, 400mm HEAT

Rear hull: 70mm KE, 400mm HEAT
Side hull: 170mm KE, 520mm HEAT
Mantlet: 920mm KE, 2000mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 970mm KE, 2000mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 860mm KE, 1720mm HEAT
Side turret: 290mm KE, 460mm HEAT

M1A2:
Lower hull: 590-650mm KE, 800-970mm HEAT
Glacis: 560-590mm KE, 800-1050mm HEAT
Front 1/3rd side hull: 160mm KE, 900mm HEAT
Front side turret, side turret: 300mm KE, 480mm HEAT
Upper front turret:
Rear turret: 90mm KE, 410mm HEAT

Rear hull: 100mm KE, 500mm HEAT
Side hull: 90mm KE, 680mm HEAT
Mantlet: 880mm KE, 1620mm HEAT
Weakened zone: 900mm KE, 1500mm HEAT
Front turret corners: 880mm KE, 1310mm HEAT
Side turret: 300mm KE, 480mm HEAT


If Challenger shoots to front armour of Leopard 2, it will either kill driver or blow up tank. If Leopard 2 shoots to front armour of Challenger 2, it will kill driver.

GG germany
Last edited by Questers on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:40 pm

Armor isn't all. Otherwise the Maus would be the ultimate tank of the world. Speed is armor.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:41 pm

Purpelia wrote:Armor isn't all. Otherwise the Maus would be the ultimate tank of the world. Speed is armor.
Yeah good luck with your torsion bars getting you through rough terrain. Enjoy being mired in the 20th century.
Last edited by Questers on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Fordorsia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20431
Founded: Oct 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Fordorsia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:45 pm

Purpelia wrote:Armor isn't all. Otherwise the Maus would be the ultimate tank of the world. Speed is armor.

The Maus' armour is negated by the fact that the crew couldn't do any maintenance on it.
Pro: Swords
Anti: Guns

San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad

Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.

Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.

Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:48 pm

My point was that there is a lot more to comparing tanks than just counting off millimeters of armor.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
The Democratic Republic of Davida
Diplomat
 
Posts: 607
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Democratic Republic of Davida » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:48 pm

I shouldn't continue this discussion. Shouldn´t really have started one in the first place.

I am terrible at it. As soon as I get the feeling people are being more argessive and abusive than they need to be, I get upset.

This is not an accusation directed at anyone else but me.

User avatar
Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:49 pm

Questers wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Armor isn't all. Otherwise the Maus would be the ultimate tank of the world. Speed is armor.
Yeah good luck with your torsion bars getting you through rough terrain. Enjoy being mired in the 20th century.


Torsion bars only cry when you put mine plows on them.

User avatar
Kouralia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15122
Founded: Oct 30, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kouralia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:50 pm

The Democratic Republic of Davida wrote:Except for how it has stood up against (not state of the art) infantry anti tank weapons.

IIRC it was an RPG-29 hitting the lower frontal armour (i.e. a part specifically able to be noted as weaker than the rest of the tank).

Image
These are RPG-29s. As you can see, they bear little similarity with an RPG-7.
Kouralia:
Me:
20s, Male,
Britbong, Bi,
Atheist, Cop
Sadly ginger.

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:52 pm

Purpelia wrote:My point was that there is a lot more to comparing tanks than just counting off millimeters of armor.
You mean like how many extremely powerful countries with very strong military traditions, such as Greece, Norway and Spain have bought the tank?
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:53 pm

Questers wrote:
Purpelia wrote:My point was that there is a lot more to comparing tanks than just counting off millimeters of armor.
You mean like how many extremely powerful countries with very strong military traditions, such as Greece, Norway and Spain have bought the tank?


So have Canada and Sweden, tbf.

Leopard 2 was just dirt cheap and modern.

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:53 pm

Questers wrote:
Purpelia wrote:My point was that there is a lot more to comparing tanks than just counting off millimeters of armor.
You mean like how many extremely powerful countries with very strong military traditions, such as Greece, Norway and Spain have bought the tank?

That's not a good benchmark either since we all know arms sales are as much about politics if not more so than they are about performance. Especially with items which are this close.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:54 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Questers wrote: You mean like how many extremely powerful countries with very strong military traditions, such as Greece, Norway and Spain have bought the tank?


So have Canada and Sweden, tbf.

Leopard 2 was just dirt cheap and modern.


When was last time Sweden fought a war?
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:54 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Questers wrote: You mean like how many extremely powerful countries with very strong military traditions, such as Greece, Norway and Spain have bought the tank?

That's not a good benchmark either since we all know arms sales are as much about politics if not more so than they are about performance. Especially with items which are this close.
So here's a good benchmark: Can the tank's ammunition load be easily penetrated from the front?

M1: No
Challenger: No
Leopard 2: Yes
Last edited by Questers on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Restore the Crown

User avatar
The Democratic Republic of Davida
Diplomat
 
Posts: 607
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Democratic Republic of Davida » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:56 pm

Kouralia wrote:
The Democratic Republic of Davida wrote:Except for how it has stood up against (not state of the art) infantry anti tank weapons.

IIRC it was an RPG-29 hitting the lower frontal armour (i.e. a part specifically able to be noted as weaker than the rest of the tank).

Image
These are RPG-29s. As you can see, they bear little similarity with an RPG-7.


That was supposed to be a compliment to the tank, not a critisism.


User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:59 pm

Questers wrote:So here's a good benchmark: Can the tank's ammunition load be easily penetrated from the front?

M1: No
Challenger: No
Leopard 2: Yes

Not really a good one either since you are assuming the tank will be hit and penetrated on its strongest armored point.
After all, we could just as easily ask if the driver can be easily killed by a front penetration leading to a yes on all of them. But it kind of ignores the elephant in the room.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
Questers
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13867
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Questers » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:01 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Questers wrote:So here's a good benchmark: Can the tank's ammunition load be easily penetrated from the front?

M1: No
Challenger: No
Leopard 2: Yes

Not really a good one either since you are assuming the tank will be hit and penetrated on its strongest armored point.
After all, we could just as easily ask if the driver can be easily killed by a front penetration leading to a yes on all of them. But it kind of ignores the elephant in the room.
It's not its strongest armour point. I don't think you even looked at the figures (or know anything about tanks if you think the glacis is the strongest point.) Latest Russian KEP can penetrate it.
Last edited by Questers on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Restore the Crown

User avatar
Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:01 pm

It's a big deal if 40% of your frontal arc being penetrated results in a total loss of crew and vehicle.

Tanks can (and have) survived multiple penetrations with fairly minimal damage.

User avatar
Premislyd
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10456
Founded: Feb 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Premislyd » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:02 pm

Questers wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
So have Canada and Sweden, tbf.

Leopard 2 was just dirt cheap and modern.


When was last time Sweden fought a war?


They're in Afghanistan and Iraq, fwiw
Just a heads up, I suffer from [insert stereotypical internet illness here], and will use it as an excuse instead of taking responsibility for my actions.
~Transgendered, bisexual, transsexual, metrosexual, homosexual, Japanophile, heterosexual, transvestite asexual and proud~
Pimps Inc wrote:Swastikas are not allowed in nationstates unless your are RPing as Nazi Germany or sumthing

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:03 pm

Questers wrote:It's not its strongest armour point. Latest Russian KEP can penetrate it.

In theory. If we assume the tank just gets hit in the first place and does not have ERA or anything.

Really, comparing who can kill whom in an ideal one on one fight on a flat glass surface is kind of pointless. Would you not agree?


PS. I am not actually defending it so much as I am saying your methodology of comparison is all wrong.
Last edited by Purpelia on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Factbooks and National Information

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Chava Cal, Dtn, HarYan, Ord Caprica

Advertisement

Remove ads