Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Type 6

[Anacasppia]

Frankly, this gives rise to yet more questions - why two containers of five instead of one container of ten? So that it would be less serious if either container was hit and set off, perhaps?

Also, how are the containers reloaded? From within the tank or externally? In combat does the loader take rounds from hull stowage and load them into the bustle containers?

Well, the ready rounds in the IV are stored in two rotors of 5 tubes because of space concerns. They have room to go sideways, not vertically. As each tube is itself protected, there is less of a concern of them all going.

It is reloaded from inside the tank.

My understanding is the AMX-40 had a similar, manually cranked version of this.

Could one hope to fit a single, Meggitt-style continuous magazine of, I don't know, 20 rounds perhaps in the Merkava? As it is the bustle seems rather narrow towards the rear end...



Edit: muwahaha top page again - have some relevant Merk pr0n

[Stahn]

I do often wonder how ineffective anti tank missiles are now that Passive and Active anti missile defense systems are so common. :/


I was thinking of dealing with this by using salvo's of missiles from anti tank platforms.

(When I am not using a gun)

[Canuckland]

Found this tank, any major flaws before I make a write up? (FT)

[Dostanuot Loj]

Well, the ready rounds in the IV are stored in two rotors of 5 tubes because of space concerns. They have room to go sideways, not vertically. As each tube is itself protected, there is less of a concern of them all going.

It is reloaded from inside the tank.

My understanding is the AMX-40 had a similar, manually cranked version of this.

Could one hope to fit a single, Meggitt-style continuous magazine of, I don't know, 20 rounds perhaps in the Merkava? As it is the bustle seems rather narrow towards the rear end...



Edit: muwahaha top page again - have some relevant Merk pr0n

Why a Meggit style? They are rather bulky for what you get.
Rather, just make an updated AMX-13 style two-drum autoloader.

[Spirit of Hope]

Found this tank, any major flaws before I make a write up? (FT)

(Image)

Why those wheels on the side? Strait armor would be more effective since I can see the tracks. Turret doesn't look big enough to fit people.

[Gallia-]

You mean austere, cut down versions of MBT-70?

MBT-70 would have been a MASSIVE flop especially today people. Passive and Active anti missile defense systems people. It uses a missile launcher...
Next thing: No composite armor. It was designed to face the T 62 and the T 55...
And finally overcomplicated.
The Abrams and the Leopard are much better then it.

Shillelagh was a Lalfest.

What makes you think MBT-70 wouldn't have received drop-in Special Armor inserts? XM815 didn't have composite armour initially.

There are other problems you could address besides protection, which was superior to all Western MBTs of its era including the Chieftain.

What was overly complex about it? Replacing in-arm hydropneumatic suspension is easier than replacing a torsion bar. MBT-70's most complicated features were the 20mm cannon and driver's capsule, besides Shillelagh. Most automotive ideas were retained (except the suspension) in XM1, such as a high power-to-weight ratio and the Leopard II used a development of the same 1,500 HP diesel. Clearly overcomplicated. Spaced armour of the MBT-70 was replaced by Chobham style armour when it became available in XM815/XM1 prototypes, too.

Seems like it wasn't a "MASSIVE flop", but actually quite a well-thought out main battle tank using the technology of the era to its fullest, with clever use of protected volume to reduce the weight, and had a serious influence on the succeeding designs.

Both M1 and Leopard 2 have inferior operational mobility to MBT-70 due to their higher weights, although whether this is relevant or not (MBT-70 would have required a new series of support vehicles and bridges, it was still pretty heavy) is debatable tbh. Aside from that, the MBT-70 had superior cross-country mobility, similar situational awareness, and hunter-killer capability during day and night (not seen on Abrams until M1A2).

It was also cost-prohibitive, inferior in terms of protection (of debatable usefulness, ~speed is armour~), had a really silly idea about commander's armament, had a few more points of failure (although the driver's capsule had a mechanical locking feature and manual backup in case the hydraulic system failed), and a few more man-hours of maintenance per day.

Against T-55s and T-62s (the only tanks the West ever fought), it would have been no worse than M1 Abrams. Against T-72Ms, it would have been equal or slightly better. Against better, Soviet tanks, it would have lacked in the protection department but with the 120mm L/44 it would have been sufficient to defeat them too. Just try not to get hit.

ODS would have turned out the same with MBT-70s replacing Abrams, but look 100x cooler.

[Canuckland]

Found this tank, any major flaws before I make a write up? (FT)

(Image)

Why those wheels on the side? Strait armor would be more effective since I can see the tracks. Turret doesn't look big enough to fit people.

I think I've highlighted the treads. In red.

The turret? Hmm...I might have to hand-wave that if I find it even more inadequate.
EDIT:
Never mind, I thought you said you couldn't see the treads. But I'd put those wheels there to fake out the enemy, or maybe just blow away disks to fake the enemy AND have active ERA.

[The Akasha Colony]

Why those wheels on the side? Strait armor would be more effective since I can see the tracks. Turret doesn't look big enough to fit people.

I think I've highlighted the treads. In red.

The turret? Hmm...I might have to hand-wave that if I find it even more inadequate.
EDIT:
Never mind, I thought you said you couldn't see the treads. But I'd put those wheels there to fake out the enemy, or maybe just blow away disks to fake the enemy AND have active ERA.

Those wheels seem to give the tank a rather low ground contact length relative to the vehicle's total length, which won't do wonders for your ground pressure. It also seems to be rather short on electronics and sensors, and lacking a commander's weapons station of any kind.

[Canuckland]

I think I've highlighted the treads. In red.

The turret? Hmm...I might have to hand-wave that if I find it even more inadequate.
EDIT:
Never mind, I thought you said you couldn't see the treads. But I'd put those wheels there to fake out the enemy, or maybe just blow away disks to fake the enemy AND have active ERA.

Those wheels seem to give the tank a rather low ground contact length relative to the vehicle's total length, which won't do wonders for your ground pressure. It also seems to be rather short on electronics and sensors, and lacking a commander's weapons station of any kind.

Electronics and sensors? Hm, of what kind? I mean, there might be a laser rangefinder on the other side, at least I think I see one.

A commanders weapon? Like an AA roof mounted machine gun?

[The Akasha Colony]

Electronics and sensors? Hm, of what kind? I mean, there might be a laser rangefinder on the other side, at least I think I see one.

A cupola for all-around vision, a gunner's primary sight, ideally a commander's independent sight, plus all the bells and whistles like a softkill jammer and other detection systems.

A commanders weapon? Like an AA roof mounted machine gun?

Roof mounted, but not necessarily for AA use. A machine gun, light autocannon, or automatic grenade launcher, to supplement the main and coaxial weapons.

[Canuckland]

Electronics and sensors? Hm, of what kind? I mean, there might be a laser rangefinder on the other side, at least I think I see one.

A cupola for all-around vision, a gunner's primary sight, ideally a commander's independent sight, plus all the bells and whistles like a softkill jammer and other detection systems.

A commanders weapon? Like an AA roof mounted machine gun?

Roof mounted, but not necessarily for AA use. A machine gun, light autocannon, or automatic grenade launcher, to supplement the main and coaxial weapons.

A cupola for all-around vision, a gunner's primary sight, ideally a commander's independent sight, plus all the bells and whistles like a softkill jammer and other detection systems.

That's what I was afraid of, the first three. A soft kill jammer? Excuse me if I'm being rather stupid, but what are those?

Roof mounted, but not necessarily for AA use. A machine gun, light autocannon, or automatic grenade launcher, to supplement the main and coaxial weapons.

I was close enough. But I was also afraid of this, which is why I planned to have an MBT-70 style 20mm autocannon in the turret. Problem: Small turret, again. So that's at least six things I need to hand wave. It seems I might have to go back looking.

[Lydenburg]

A cupola for all-around vision, a gunner's primary sight, ideally a commander's independent sight, plus all the bells and whistles like a softkill jammer and other detection systems.



Roof mounted, but not necessarily for AA use. A machine gun, light autocannon, or automatic grenade launcher, to supplement the main and coaxial weapons.

A cupola for all-around vision, a gunner's primary sight, ideally a commander's independent sight, plus all the bells and whistles like a softkill jammer and other detection systems.

That's what I was afraid of, the first three. A soft kill jammer? Excuse me if I'm being rather stupid, but what are those?

Roof mounted, but not necessarily for AA use. A machine gun, light autocannon, or automatic grenade launcher, to supplement the main and coaxial weapons.

I was close enough. But I was also afraid of this, which is why I planned to have an MBT-70 style 20mm autocannon in the turret. Problem: Small turret, again. So that's at least six things I need to hand wave. It seems I might have to go back looking.

I'd recommend a co-axial machine gun next to the main cannon. It'll function well as a secondary weapon, and solves the issue of the missing MG/commander's weapon.

[Canuckland]

That's what I was afraid of, the first three. A soft kill jammer? Excuse me if I'm being rather stupid, but what are those?


I was close enough. But I was also afraid of this, which is why I planned to have an MBT-70 style 20mm autocannon in the turret. Problem: Small turret, again. So that's at least six things I need to hand wave. It seems I might have to go back looking.

I'd recommend a co-axial machine gun next to the main cannon. It'll function well as a secondary weapon, and solves the issue of the missing MG/commander's weapon.

It appears that the coaxial is either under the weapon, or I could say it's on the other side.

[The Akasha Colony]

That's what I was afraid of, the first three. A soft kill jammer? Excuse me if I'm being rather stupid, but what are those?

Active protections are either hardkill (where some kind of munition is physically fired at incoming ordnance to destroy or deflect it) or softkill (which tries to jam or otherwise distract or misguide incoming ordnance without physical impact). A jammer is one of these and can be used against certain kinds, but not all kinds, of missile.

[Lydenburg]

That's what I was afraid of, the first three. A soft kill jammer? Excuse me if I'm being rather stupid, but what are those?

Active protections are either hardkill (where some kind of munition is physically fired at incoming ordnance to destroy or deflect it) or softkill (which tries to jam or otherwise distract or misguide incoming ordnance without physical impact). A jammer is one of these and can be used against certain kinds, but not all kinds, of missile.

Is there any way to defeat a hardkill APS?

[Riysa]

Active protections are either hardkill (where some kind of munition is physically fired at incoming ordnance to destroy or deflect it) or softkill (which tries to jam or otherwise distract or misguide incoming ordnance without physical impact). A jammer is one of these and can be used against certain kinds, but not all kinds, of missile.

Is there any way to defeat a hardkill APS?

Double-tap, and jamming the MMW radar it uses are your best bets

Also, I think there's a disposable RPG-series MANPATW that fired both a shaped charge and a radar decoy, although it was only direct fire and unguided.

[Lydenburg]

Is there any way to defeat a hardkill APS?

Double-tap, and jamming the MMW radar it uses are your best bets

Also, I think there's a disposable RPG-series MANPAT that fired both a shaped charge and a radar decoy, although it was only direct fire and unguided.

Define double-tap. Not really possible with a large-calibre gun, unless we're talking ARES 75/heavy autocannon class here.

Jamming the MMW radar? How would one go about this?

[Questers]

I do often wonder how ineffective anti tank missiles are now that Passive and Active anti missile defense systems are so common. :/


I was thinking of dealing with this by using salvo's of missiles from anti tank platforms.

(When I am not using a gun)

They are good because combined arms is good.

[The Soodean Imperium]

Also, I think there's a disposable RPG-series MANPATW that fired both a shaped charge and a radar decoy, although it was only direct fire and unguided.

Ah! That would be the RPG-30.

[Lydenburg]

Also, I think there's a disposable RPG-series MANPATW that fired both a shaped charge and a radar decoy, although it was only direct fire and unguided.

Ah! That would be the RPG-30.

A double-barreled RPG. Well, now I've seen everything.



I really imagined more of a double round which split after being fired, or some such thing.

[Riysa]

Double-tap, and jamming the MMW radar it uses are your best bets

Also, I think there's a disposable RPG-series MANPAT that fired both a shaped charge and a radar decoy, although it was only direct fire and unguided.

Define double-tap. Not really possible with a large-calibre gun, unless we're talking ARES 75/heavy autocannon class here.

Jamming the MMW radar? How would one go about this?

Are we talking about KEPs or missiles? KEPs are harder to defeat by APS systems, so there's that - when it comes to KEPs, what the APS tries to do is destabilize it in order to reduce penetration. Either way, what I mean is fire two shots at the same time, probably from different launchers/vehicles, to confuse the system.

You jam it like you jam other radar sets.

Also, I think there's a disposable RPG-series MANPATW that fired both a shaped charge and a radar decoy, although it was only direct fire and unguided.

Ah! That would be the RPG-30.

Oi, thanks! Its a pretty neat concept, although the problem is that it only works for unguided direct LOS systems.

[Zeinbrad]

Hmm..How effective would you guys say a 20x118mm Autocannon with a 15-20 round magazine be against early-to-late WW2 tanks?

[Gallia-]

Define double-tap. Not really possible with a large-calibre gun, unless we're talking ARES 75/heavy autocannon class here.

Jamming the MMW radar? How would one go about this?

Are we talking about KEPs or missiles? KEPs are harder to defeat by APS systems, so there's that - when it comes to KEPs, what the APS tries to do is destabilize it in order to reduce penetration. Either way, what I mean is fire two shots at the same time, probably from different launchers/vehicles, to confuse the system.

You jam it like you jam other radar sets.

Ah! That would be the RPG-30.

Oi, thanks! Its a pretty neat concept, although the problem is that it only works for unguided direct LOS systems.

A bigger problem is that it doesn't work.

[Connori Pilgrims]

Hmm..How effective would you guys say a 20x118mm Autocannon with a 15-20 round magazine be against early-to-late WW2 tanks?

Useful against early-war vehicles, all but worthless against anything else unless you can get the gun to hit the engine deck.

[Spirit of Hope]

Hmm..How effective would you guys say a 20x118mm Autocannon with a 15-20 round magazine be against early-to-late WW2 tanks?

Against early WW2 tanks it would probably work fine, it would start to drop off during the war, and would probably be less than useful against any type of tank by the end of the war. However you could still put it to use against armored are, halftracks, as a sniper, etc.