Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Type 6

[Ragnarum]

Rifled or smoothbore tank gun?

Or does it depend?

[Spirit of Hope]

Rifled or smoothbore tank gun?

Or does it depend?

Almost all are smoothbore, rifled takes away from APDS and HEAT.

[The Greater Luthorian Empire]

Rifled or smoothbore tank gun?

Or does it depend?

Almost all are smoothbore, rifled takes away from APDS and HEAT.

Slip rings let you fire APFSDS, and you can put grooves into the liner to counteract the spin for HEAT. You lose some effectiveness, but not much. I will likely use rifled guns on my medium tanks because they aren't specialist tank killers.

[Ragnarum]

Aren't rifled guns more accurate over range?

And I heard somewhere they handle HESH better.

[Dostanuot Loj]

Alright, thoughts on this, instead of the Leopard 1 series.

Main tank of Sumer is a Sumerian locally designed and produced tank, with heavy input/help from Vickers, which is effectively notVickers Mk.3i. Thousands produced, much upgrades, etc. In use by the Armoured Corps of the Land Forces, also forms the basis of lots of other vehicles. Replaces, late 1960s/early 1970s mix of other tanks, mostly Shermans. Produced forever.

The Cavalry Corps uses M-41s until the 1980s when it purchases a variant of the MB-3 Tamoyo, modified to mount a 76mm gun (Oto Melera ammunition compatible) for its heavy units. Mid-1990s purchases 76mm variant of Rooikat for light units, the two work side by side.

Imperial Guard imports, initially, heavy tanks post war, replaces with M48 Pattons which are upgraded throughout their service life. M48 replaced in service by AMX-40 as early adopter in early 1980s. Augmented by Leopard 2A4 purchases in mid-1990s.

Naval Infantry's one tank regiment runs AMX-40 handed over from Imperial Guard stocks in early 1990s to replace M-41 tanks it has been using. Very happy finally has non-crap tank.

Single airborne tank regiment operates AMX-13 from formation post-war until getting Vickers VFM-5 early 1990s.

That leaves me with a fun assortment of stuff to fill my need for many types of tanks. I still have Temple Guard regiments to fill out, and they may be quirky, but the bulk will be Vickers/AMX-40/Leopard2A4 in order of numbers.

Going to work this out tonight.

I don't really think I can comment on this without knowing how your military is structured? What does your Imperial Guard do, are they an elite formation, a specialist formation, a ceremonial formation? Also, what do temple guards do? I mean I like the idea, being able to use so many tanks, but I am wondering what exactly goes on with your military.

I just threw up something on this on the realism thread. To finally tag it partially.

The idea is this, my military is structured with many many checks and balances. There is the Army and Navy, which are conventional, and contain their own air services (No independent air force). There is the National Guard, which is a Gendarme/Internal Troops/National police service. There is the Imperial Guard, which are "elite" in that they are meant to counter the main forces in the (unlikely) event of a civil war, but normally act the same as say, Iraqi Republican Guard, just better troops, smaller force though. Temple guards are, simply, religious armies. Small size, technically regiments, but they vary. None are very big, but they act primarily to ensure the existence of the religious institutions regardless of what happens (10,000 year history of occasional civil war, invasions, etc., the temples have decided they need insurance).

Two sides to the armed forces structure, administrative and combat. Combat formations are brigades, formed of battalions. Brigades are non-permanent, and are combined arms formations. Battalions are, generally, single-type formations. Battalions are administered by Regiments, which are themselves part of a Corps, neither regiment or corps are combat formations.

My updated list taking this into account:
Royal Land Forces:
- Armoured Corps: Vickers Mk.3i/XXX/Vickers Mk.3i/Vickers Mk.3i
- Infantry Corps: Vickers Mk.3i/XXX/Vickers Mk.3i//XXX
- Cavalry Corps: MB-3 Tamoyo/Rooikat/M-41/M-41
- Airborne Corps: Vickers VFM-5/AMX-13/AMX-13/AMX-13
Royal Maritime Forces:
- Maritime Security Corps: MB-3 Tamoyo/XXX/XXX/XXX
- Maritime Infantry Corps: AMX-40/M-41/M-41/XXX
Internal Forces:
- Emergency Response Corps: Vickers Mk.3i/XXX/XXX/XXX
- Armoured/Mechanized Corps: Vickers Mk.3i/XXX/XXX/XXX
Imperial Guard:
- Armoured Corps: Leopard 2A4/AMX-40/XXX/Leopard 1A5
- Infantry Corps: Leopard 1A5/XXX/XXX/Leopard 1A5
- Cavalry Corps: MB-3 Tamoyo/Rooikat/XXX/M-41
- Airborne Corps: Vickers VFM-5/XXX/XXX/AMX-13

Temple Guard units who use tanks I will flesh out eventually. This list is circa~2000, which is when I think I will set my RP-ness. Format is: First Line/Second Line/Reserve/Storage. First and second line are active troops, where first have the latest and second do not have the latest yet. Reserve are part time, reserve troops. Storage is, well, storage for surplus. Anything with "XXX" in it means there is nothing for that category, for example there are no Imperial Guard reserve troops, or all tanks of a particular corps are the same as first line.

Also of note, All Vickers Mk.3i, are going to be introduced in the late 1960s/early 1970s, rather then the RL 1980s, as a private agreement between Sumer and Vickers, which led to its development quicker, as the Vickers Mk.1-3 regular were not enough. This is not really stretching anything though. Production of the tank, in Sumer, from say 1974-the end of time. So they are the bulk of my tanks. Cavalry units employ the Rooikat as well as MB-3, and are both first line.

Or, the short list:
- Vickers Mk.3i
- Leopard 1A5
- Leopard 2A4
- Vickers VFM-5
- AMX-13
- AMX-40
- MB-3 Tamoyo
- M-41

For even more lulz. Starting mid-1990s major cross-implementation plan, which is a pan-services upgrade program which involves standardizing lots of parts/details. For example, widespread introduction of a TC cupola like the AMX-40 has to all Vickers/MB-3. Widespread adoption of a EMES-15-copy FCS, or EMES-12 for the 120mm tanks, or a derived version for 76mm for those.

Going to have to come up with numbers. But it will be a lot of Vickers, and not as many of the rest.

[Spirit of Hope]

Almost all are smoothbore, rifled takes away from APDS and HEAT.

Slip rings let you fire APFSDS, and you can put grooves into the liner to counteract the spin for HEAT. You lose some effectiveness, but not much. I will likely use rifled guns on my medium tanks because they aren't specialist tank killers.

Yes, but why would you add something to your gun that then forces you to add something to your ammo?

Aren't rifled guns more accurate over range?

And I heard somewhere they handle HESH better.

Your gun is more accurate than the computers that help you aim it. And riffling does help HESH, but HESH isn't that effective against modern armor do to modern armor lay outs.

[The Greater Luthorian Empire]

Slip rings let you fire APFSDS, and you can put grooves into the liner to counteract the spin for HEAT. You lose some effectiveness, but not much. I will likely use rifled guns on my medium tanks because they aren't specialist tank killers.

Yes, but why would you add something to your gun that then forces you to add something to your ammo?

Because it allows you to fire more types of ammunition like HESH and plain HE.

[Spirit of Hope]

Yes, but why would you add something to your gun that then forces you to add something to your ammo?

Because it allows you to fire more types of ammunition like HESH and plain HE.

You can fire both of those, with accuracy, from a smoothbore. The only improvement you get from rifling is for HESH, which isn't better at penetrating than HEAT or APDS.

[The Greater Luthorian Empire]

Because it allows you to fire more types of ammunition like HESH and plain HE.

You can fire both of those, with accuracy, from a smoothbore. The only improvement you get from rifling is for HESH, which isn't better at penetrating than HEAT or APDS.

Good thing you aren't using it to kill full fledged tanks, you use it against light vehicles like APCs and trucks, or against bunkers. Also who the fuck uses APDS anymore? APFSDS is better.

[Spirit of Hope]

You can fire both of those, with accuracy, from a smoothbore. The only improvement you get from rifling is for HESH, which isn't better at penetrating than HEAT or APDS.

Good thing you aren't using it to kill full fledged tanks, you use it against light vehicles like APCs and trucks, or against bunkers. Also why the hell uses APDS anymore? APFSDS is better.

Why add HESH when you can just use HEAT for those same roles. And your right APFSDS is better, and it doesn't work as well with riffling. So why add riffling? It only adds to HESH, which doesn't have much place with HEAT HE and APFSDS all existing.

[Dostanuot Loj]

Yes, but why would you add something to your gun that then forces you to add something to your ammo?

Because it allows you to fire more types of ammunition like HESH and plain HE.

This is really a function of the gun, and development.

Take the 105mm L7 rifled gun, and any gun based on, or compatible with it, versus the 120mm German guns (?44, ?55, M256, etc) and all their versions. The 120mm gun, despite being smoothbore, has only a fraction of the available ammunition types of the rifled L7. There could be more types for the 120mm, but there is not, because development need is not there, whereas the 105mm L7-derrived rifled guns are still the most prolific Western tank gun in the world, still in use as first or second line almost everywhere, and crammed into so many supporting roles it needs the ammo diversity. Whereas for, say the M256, you need what, two or three types? APFSDS, HEAT-MP, and maybe a GLATGM or smoke round. There are more available for it, but not as much as you can get for the L7.

The same story goes for Soviet-derived guns, although it is not as bad for the 125mm smoothbores, as they have taken up a lot of the roles the L7 fills in the West.

[The Kievan People]

Aren't rifled guns more accurate over range?

And I heard somewhere they handle HESH better.

More accurate when firing shells. But the only shells tanks commonly fire are HEAT, HE and HESH. HEAT is incompatible with rifling, HE does not require a direct hit (especially when a proximity or time fuze is used) and HESH is not particularly effective against modern armor. APFSDS meanwhile are the most accurate projectiles of all.

[Kalumba]

(Image)

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Hondo Mutyovha-82 'Shumba' - Main Battle Tank

Designation:
Numerical Designation: HM-82
Name: "Shumba"

Key Data:
Crew: 4 (Commander, Gunner, Loader, Driver)
Designer: Salisbury Arms Manufacture
Cost: $2,000,000

Dimensions:
Length:
- Hull: 7.65m
- Gun forwards: 10.16m
Height:
- Turret roof: 2.74m
- Incl. .50 cal: 3.14m
- Chassis: 1.62m
Width:
- Hull: 3.45m
Weight:
- Base combat: 56,005kg


Propulsion:
Engine: Rema Mutyovha Injini Model XV12-C, 36L, turbo charged direct injection diesel, 10 cylinder multi-fuel engine
Power: 840hp (625kW, steady state)
Power/Weight ratio: 17.5 hp/tonne
Transmission: Rima Giya-446 Hydromechanical, 4 forward/2 reverse gears
Suspension: Torsion Bar, with 7 telescopic hydro-gas shock absorbers
Wheels: 7 road wheels, rear drive (12-tooth sprocket), front idler with 4 return rollers

Performance:
Speed:
- Road: 34mph road speed (mechanically governed)
- Reverse (road): 18mph
- Cross-country: 22mph
Operational Range: 260 miles (internal fuel, road)
Acceleration: 0 to 20mph in 9.4 seconds

Armament:
Main Armament: 105mm L7A1 52 calibre solid propellant rifled cannon, fitted with thermal sleeve and bore extractor
- Ammunition: 41 rounds, stored in turret
- Elevation: -15/+10 deg
- Elevation rate: 22 deg/sec
- Traverse: 360 deg
- Traverse rate: 30 deg/sec
Coaxial station (right): 7.62 Rema Kikiridzamm RK-74 (removable in case of vehicle loss)
- Ammunition: 600 rounds (7.62x51mm NATO)
Loader's weapon: .50 cal M2
- Ammunition: 800 rounds
- Elevation: -15/+40 deg
- Elevation rate: 35 deg/sec
- Traverse: 360 deg theoretical, 140 deg practical
- Traverse rate: 45 deg/sec

Protection:
Armour: Multilayered Steel and Ceremic mix
- Base: 210mm
- Turret: 320mm
- Additional Armour: 25mm modular armour, ERA available
Sensors: Laser Illumination Warning System linked to flare and smoke launchers
Fire: Automatic Foam Extinguishing System (crew compartment), CO2 Extinguisher, Self-Sealing Fuel Tanks (engine block)
Smoke: 12x40mm grenade launchers, 6 on each side of the turret, fuel injection into engine exhaust
Flare: 8x57mm launchers, 4 on each side of the turret

Sights:
Primary Gunnery Sight: Telescopic 12x Periscope, with integrated Laser Rangefinder and electronic reticle
- Laser rangefinder: Adjustable from 200m to 5200m
- Gunnery aids: -Chembera Ziso Rimwe-Apundura (CZR-A 88) Fire-Control Computer, plots 95% accurate ballistic data at 2200m, 75% accuracy at 3400m
- Nyoka Ziso Thermal Vision Device, operating at wavelengths between 3 and 5 μm
-Computer Aided Stabilising system for the main gun, coupled with roller bearings in the turret
Additional Sights:
- Gunner: Auxiliary 4x telescope
- Commander: 8 individual periscopes, covering 360 deg
- Driver: Observation slit (single periscope for 110 deg vision, integrated passive night sight)

Communications:
Radio: Reba Chinhambwe Redhiyo 66 (RCR-66)

This looks considerably more sophisticated than the Tembo. Are you going to keep the older one, or are you adopting 'Shumba' full-time?

Edit: Come to think of it, considering the amount of armour and the electronics you've added, $2,000,000 is far too cheap. It costs about $2,000,000 RL to buy a Panhard ERC scout car - much less something of this class and weight!

The Tembo's will still be in service, but now more in the secondary/reserve role to the Shumba. ICly the Tembo's were in service under the minority regime but were replaced with T-55s when majority rule came in. The Shumba is a modernised version of the original T-55s, which have been enlarged and fitted with more modern equipment. The majority of the equipment is local rips of Norvenian kit from the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The price was more a rough estimate than a definate figure, what would you suggest as an improved price?

[The Kievan People]

Because it allows you to fire more types of ammunition like HESH and plain HE.

Every type of round can be fired from both types of guns. Either by adding fins or a slip ring.

[Lydenburg]

This looks considerably more sophisticated than the Tembo. Are you going to keep the older one, or are you adopting 'Shumba' full-time?

Edit: Come to think of it, considering the amount of armour and the electronics you've added, $2,000,000 is far too cheap. It costs about $2,000,000 RL to buy a Panhard ERC scout car - much less something of this class and weight!

The Tembo's will still be in service, but now more in the secondary/reserve role to the Shumba. ICly the Tembo's were in service under the minority regime but were replaced with T-55s when majority rule came in. The Shumba is a modernised version of the original T-55s, which have been enlarged and fitted with more modern equipment. The majority of the equipment is local rips of Norvenian kit from the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The price was more a rough estimate than a definate figure, what would you suggest as an improved price?

Since this is a heavily upgraded T-55, you're looking at slightly over $4,000,000 per tank. That's not counting maintenance costs or add-on armour.

$4,000,000 per vehicle sounds quite hefty for the likes of Kalumba's GDP, especially when the Tembo is already capable of dealing with BAPL insurgents or the casual threat posed by Songhian T-72s. How many do you foresee in service?

[Kalumba]

Since this is a heavily upgraded T-55, you're looking at slightly over $4,000,000 per tank. That's not counting maintenance costs or add-on armour.

$4,000,000 per vehicle sounds quite hefty for the likes of Kalumba's GDP, especially when the Tembo is already capable of dealing with BAPL insurgents or the casual threat posed by Songhian T-72s. How many do you foresee in service?

The idea behind these is the 20 odd Tembo's in service under minority rule were pretty worn out come independence, and only 12 remained servicable with the rest scrapped for parts. This left the new Kalumban Security Forces lacking in armoured support and thus 40 T-55s were aquired in 1974 using Norvenian restructuring money. With the sudden surge in BAPL activity in 1986 the government authorised the modernisation of 20 of these, with the rest scrapped for parts. I see 8 Tembo's still in service and 12 Shumba's with the rest in storage.

[Scocialist Provinces]

For an AP-dedicated tank, should one go 90mm rifled or 125mm smoothebore?

[Spirit of Hope]

For an AP-dedicated tank, should one go 90mm rifled or 125mm smoothebore?

125mm smoothbore, it works better for HEAT and APFSDS, which are the two primary antitank rounds.

[Scocialist Provinces]

For an AP-dedicated tank, should one go 90mm rifled or 125mm smoothebore?

125mm smoothbore, it works better for HEAT and APFSDS, which are the two primary antitank rounds.

Hm, I was told that a 90mm would be more effective due to the fact that with a strong enough charge, you'd be going through any armor.

[Macedonian Grand Empire]

125mm smoothbore, it works better for HEAT and APFSDS, which are the two primary antitank rounds.

Hm, I was told that a 90mm would be more effective due to the fact that with a strong enough charge, you'd be going through any armor.

hmmm Who said that? If that was the case most tanks would be using 90mm not 120 mm guns.

[The Akasha Colony]

125mm smoothbore, it works better for HEAT and APFSDS, which are the two primary antitank rounds.

Hm, I was told that a 90mm would be more effective due to the fact that with a strong enough charge, you'd be going through any armor.

A 125 mm gun would provide you a larger charge and more muzzle energy, ceteris paribus.

[Novorden]

"In an attempt to get people to start linearting more and because I know from personal experience that the tracks are often the hardest bit to get right, I have decluttered my tracks (not the best but they work) and they are now free to use, You don't even have to ask."

Any modifications big or small are fine.

I have redone my "free tracks" sheet into a "Free parts" sheet, so it is now allot neater.

Click for full size

Just as a reminder, all my stuff is free to use/modify, most of which can be found in the "Newer Designs" link in my Sig.
(I do like being linked to the work once you've done it so that i can judge you)

[Zeinbrad]

Let me try my hands at this.

Kanzar 3 Vehicle fighting tank (VFT)


The Kanzer 3 of the 24th Tallur armored regiment"
Operators-Empire of Germnia and her puppet states
City of Origin-Karz.
Crew-1 commander/radio operator , 1 driver, 1 main gunner, 1 main gun loader, 1 Sponson mounted gun gunner, 1 sponson mounted gun loader.
Powerplant- HVP-12 gasoline engine.
Weight- 30 tons.
Length-7.02 meters
Width-4.84 meters
Height-4.42 meters
Max speed: 41 km/h
Main armament-L/44 75mm tank gun.
Secondary armament-L/33 90mm tank gun and 7.92mm MG-12 machine gun on pintle mount.
Ammunition-Main gun- 60 rounds.
Sponson mounted gun-40 rounds.
Machien gun-1,200 rounds.
Number built-82,344
Years of Service(In human years)-1934-1967.


Oh, in the Ragon world (Bellum) this was one of the most effective tanks during the 1900's, this may be do to the other countries tank forces and Anti-tank forces being incompetent.

[Riysa]

My second try at linearting. Does the hull look good enough? I know its a bit long, but that's on purpose.

[The Akasha Colony]

My second try at linearting. Does the hull look good enough? I know its a bit long, but that's on purpose.

It looks to be over 9 meters long by my count, is that correct? Assuming you're still using RB's scale. I'm not sure how much higher the structure on the tank will go, but I assume there will be one since it's quite short, especially for a front-sprocket tank.

IMO, it's easiest to start without the skirt, draw just a basic hull box for the wheels if you intend to cover it later, but start with at least a basic hull outline so you know how much room you have in the hull itself for the driver and such. Nothing worse than going all the way through the design to realize in the end you don't have enough space to actually fit the crew or basic components.