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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #5

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Thread Author #6 Poll

Questers
41
34%
Gallia-/Kampala-
12
10%
Velkanika
8
7%
The Kievan People/Kyiv
29
24%
The Akasha Colony
5
4%
Spirit of Hope
4
3%
Lamoni
5
4%
Lyras
10
8%
Lubyak
5
4%
 
Total votes : 119

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Samozaryadnyastan
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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #5

Postby Samozaryadnyastan » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:41 am

This thread is devoted to the presentation and discussion of military technology, tactics and concepts in a realistic setting, as well as the development, deployment and discussion of general military technology. Images are welcome, though we ask that excessively large images (to be determined at presentation) be spoiler'd.

There's something that should definitely be noted here. Seriously.
If you're unwilling to take this point to heart, stop before posting.
If you post something in this thread, whether for critique explicitly, or just to post - you have basically submitted it for critique. If it seems... in some way or other peculiar, it will be critiqued.
Take this as it is, a critique, and not as an insult or a slight.

Further, players are encouraged to ask questions, and answer questions to the best of their ability. The adage "Better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt" is apt. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post. If you don't know, ask. Someone will tell you. Try to learn from what the more experienced players have to say, and use that knowledge to improve your understanding. As always, to the veterans, this is not an excuse to flame, troll or otherwise act in an insulting way towards posters. Finally, while some people believe there "is no such thing as a stupid question", posts which are judged by moderation to be made with the express intent to anger, upset or other wise piss off the regular posters of the thread will be treated as trolling.

Useful links to basic concepts will be added to this OP from time to time, but for now, a FAQ:

Nuclear Warfare Primer
Afraid we're waiting on this. A board member is writing such a primer, but it's not yet ready. In the meantime, have some open source information :)
Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Federation of American Scientists)
EMP Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Federation of American Scientists)
Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Princeton University [pdf])
That third link is a lecture given at Princeton University. It's amazingly in depth and pretty impressive.

How should I organise my force?
So, organisation. Organisation's an interesting one.
Possibly the most key point will be supporting elements. It's a very easy mistake to form up even entire divisions from simply stacking platoons into companies, into battalions, into regiments and up to divisions.
Supporting elements can range from something as basic as the headquarters of a formation, to an anti-tank unit, to an entire artillery regiment in a division and a field bakery.
To wit, here's a couple of images of a Russian Battalion, Regiment and Division from the Cold War-era. Click the images for full size.
Image
Image

Let's look at the Battalion (first image, right). It's made up of three companies, of three platoons each. Describing the BMP armament as a 76mm gun and the rifle as an AKM, it's clearly an old diagram. But still fine.
Note, on the right of the diagram, supporting elements. A mortar battery and an anti-tank platoon - and a series of units described as "tail". Tail, in military parlance, is primarily logistical supporting formations. The Battalion has a relatively "light" tail, of an ambulance, a technical support vehicle and five fuel and cargo trucks.

The Regiment? It features three Battalions, still with their subordinate supporting elements. But it adds even more supporting elements. A battalion of tanks. A reconnaissance company. An artillery subformation with anti-tank, field artillery and anti-air units. A "special troops" subformation of chemical defence and sappers (engineers). An expanded-size tail, with field kitchens, expanded medical section, expanded fuel and cargo section (forty vehicles in addition to the five each of a rifle battalion and those of the tank battalion)
The Division is much the same story. Several of the smaller formation, supporting arms, supporting logistics. It continues up beyond this level and further.

Here are some more Federation of American Scientists links, to American Field Manuals on organisation. The FM-100-2-3 and FM-100-60 manuals, to be precise.
https://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm100-2-3.pdf
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... 100-60.htm

From Akasha's #4 thread, also all marvellous points:
The Akasha Colony wrote:Frequently Asked Questions

  • How big should my military be?
    Before you just fire off that question in this thread, think about a few things, namely what the military's strategic role is supposed to be and how you plan to use it. A small home defense force not expected to be deployed will need fewer men and less money than a big expeditionary military or an enemy-at-the-gates Israel-like mmilitary. It seems common to compare militaries as a percentage of population, so it should be pointed out that in real-life, nations with a military population greater than 1% are exceptionally rare. In fact, out of the top six defense spenders globally, only one (Russia) has an active-duty strength greater than 0.5% of the population, and it's still well short of 1%. Of course, this is still NS, so there's a bit more latitude, but for a nation that expects to have a functioning economy, 2-3% is the limit for a standing military in peacetime. It can surge further in war time when economics are a bit more flexible, but otherwise, keep it reasonable.
  • Should I model my military after Israel? I hear they're badass!
    They are. But unless your strategic situation is like Israel's, there's no point. And by strategic situation I mean surrounded by angry neighbors who'd like nothing better than to wipe you off the face of the planet if they could and supported by a global superpower that showers money and defense contracts to support a military beyond your means. Israel's military is geared toward a very specific type of conflict, and it is not a good model for a general-purpose expeditionary military like many prefer to have on NS.
  • Is [x] concept a good idea?
    First, stop and ask yourself 'Has anyone thought of this before?' If the answer is yes, ask yourself why it's not common today. Why have centuries of engineers, theorists, strategists, tacticians, and politicians not considered it a good idea themselves? Has anything changed to suddenly make this idea practical when it wasn't before? Does it seem too good to be true?
    Could another nation use this idea? Generally speaking, whatever one nation can develop it can be reasonably expected another nation can develop the same general concept. How effective would it be if they developed it? If it seems like something only your nation can use for some reason, there's likely something wrong with it.
    Could anything go wrong? Does it pass the grin test? Put perhaps a bit more simply,

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Last edited by Samozaryadnyastan on Sat May 10, 2014 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Themiclesia
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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 am

Immoren wrote:Not really realism, but flavor related question.
But what level of "leadership" training should I demand from those trying to get to the cadet (officer) school after the conscription.
Should only those who were given reserve officer training while conscripts given chance to apply to cadet schoo?
Should reserve officer and reserve NCOs given chance to apply to cadet school?
Or should reserve officers, reserve NCOs AND rank-and-file reservist given chance to compete into cadet school. :P

Well, you know my opinion on this: everybody gets a 7-year education before enlisting.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:45 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Immoren wrote:Not really realism, but flavor related question.
But what level of "leadership" training should I demand from those trying to get to the cadet (officer) school after the conscription.
Should only those who were given reserve officer training while conscripts given chance to apply to cadet schoo?
Should reserve officer and reserve NCOs given chance to apply to cadet school?
Or should reserve officers, reserve NCOs AND rank-and-file reservist given chance to compete into cadet school. :P

Well, you know my opinion on this: everybody gets a 7-year education before enlisting.

By which time they're long past their prime. Good job.

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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:45 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Immoren wrote:Not really realism, but flavor related question.
But what level of "leadership" training should I demand from those trying to get to the cadet (officer) school after the conscription.
Should only those who were given reserve officer training while conscripts given chance to apply to cadet schoo?
Should reserve officer and reserve NCOs given chance to apply to cadet school?
Or should reserve officers, reserve NCOs AND rank-and-file reservist given chance to compete into cadet school. :P

Well, you know my opinion on this: everybody gets a 7-year education before enlisting.

Which is six and a half years largely wasted.

In this time, you could educate them to many global standards of elite helicopter piloting twice.
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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Themiclesia wrote:Well, you know my opinion on this: everybody gets a 7-year education before enlisting.

By which time they're long past their prime. Good job.

People live to a reasonable age in my country. Jim Hacker says that the military never rejected people because of illiteracy.

@IR: we do, and much else.

Anyway, at the exhortation of the thread, I'll expand my military by 10% each year until we hit 115,000 regular; and we'll introduce a condensed course for those not wishing to spend 7 years in school, lasting merely 2.5 years.
Last edited by Themiclesia on Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:48 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:By which time they're long past their prime. Good job.

People live to a reasonable age in my country. Jim Hacker says that the military never rejected people because of illiteracy.

27 year olds are physically less able than 18 year olds, especially if the 18 year old has been marching with combat loads in Afghanistan and the 27 year old has spent 7 years in school benches.
So now you got an expensive army that is physically inferior to others. Good job.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:51 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Themiclesia wrote:People live to a reasonable age in my country. Jim Hacker says that the military never rejected people because of illiteracy.

27 year olds are physically less able than 18 year olds, especially if the 18 year old has been marching with combat loads in Afghanistan and the 27 year old has spent 7 years in school benches.
So now you got an expensive army that can't march as well as others. Good job.

I doubt that. My army isn't there to carry cargo across long distances. We have vehicles and railways to do that.
Last edited by Themiclesia on Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:52 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:27 year olds are physically less able than 18 year olds, especially if the 18 year old has been marching with combat loads in Afghanistan and the 27 year old has spent 7 years in school benches.
So now you got an expensive army that can't march as well as others. Good job.

I doubt that. My army isn't there to carry cargo across long distances. We have vehicles and railways to do that.

Not your combat load.
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:53 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:27 year olds are physically less able than 18 year olds, especially if the 18 year old has been marching with combat loads in Afghanistan and the 27 year old has spent 7 years in school benches.
So now you got an expensive army that can't march as well as others. Good job.

I doubt that. I am exactly 18 years old and I am not the strongest in my family, which is average in physical strength by any standard.

You don't march with 30 kg's of combat load on your body for entire days and have never done that in your life. That's the difference. Basic military training in Sweden requires 10 km's covered at a jog in one hour before you sign up, I'd love to see you do that.

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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:54 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Themiclesia wrote:I doubt that. My army isn't there to carry cargo across long distances. We have vehicles and railways to do that.

Not your combat load.

Which means...?

@ABH: physical fitness is one criterion that is considered a given from the perspective of the military. You don't sign up unless you're fit to carry out duties at a reasonable pace.

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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:55 am

Combat load is your four meals per day, your rifle, 300 rounds of ammunition, uniform and anything else you will need during two days of any engagement. Leaving that behind in your truck is hilariously and outrageously stupid. You will also never maintain that suitable level of fitness to enlist while pursuing a master's programme.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Primordial Luxa » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:58 am

Hey guys
Could i get some comments on these?
Armored Division
Infantry Division
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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:58 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Combat load is your four meals per day, your rifle, 300 rounds of ammunition, uniform and anything else you will need during two days of any engagement. Leaving that behind in your truck is hilariously and outrageously stupid.

Why are we under the impression that people who study must be unable to maintain their own fitness? In my university alone, I can see many master's candidates who regularly keep themselves fit by a variety of methods; and while I am unable to guarantee that they can carry the above, it seems quite likely that they can. I am stating that physical fitness is a preliminary before the entrance exams even take place. I am also stating that (from the military's point of view) if one is good enough to join the military, one is good enough to keep oneself fit, and there are professionals who are employed to ensure that our personnel are fit for duty.
Last edited by Themiclesia on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Horizont » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:59 am

In a world dominated by five superstates, is the Army, the Navy, or the Air Force most important?

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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:00 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Combat load is your four meals per day, your rifle, 300 rounds of ammunition, uniform and anything else you will need during two days of any engagement. Leaving that behind in your truck is hilariously and outrageously stupid.

Why are we under the impression that people who study must be unable to maintain their own fitness? I am stating that physical fitness is a preliminary before the entrance exams even take place. I am also stating that (from the military's point of view) if one is good enough to join the military, one is good enough to keep oneself fit, and there are professionals who are employed to ensure that our personnel are fit for duty.

Yes but you're also pursuing a motherfucking master's programme. Soldiering and uni studies are anathema in requirements. One is lots of activity and the other is sitting still for 6 hours on end.

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Postby Registug » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:01 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Registug wrote:Do you share your planet with no one?

I share an impassable border with New Tyran; otherwise, I am an island. Sailing take months from Oaledonia.

This is a godmod

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Postby Ea90 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:02 am

Horizont wrote:In a world dominated by five superstates, is the Army, the Navy, or the Air Force most important?

It's really impossible to say without more specifics.

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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:02 am

Primordial Luxa wrote:Hey guys
Could i get some comments on these?
Armored Division
Infantry Division

From a brief look, your Armoured and Infantry Brigades don't look particularly off at all.

I'm a little confused as to the purpose of a "Combined Arms Brigade" within the Divisions, and I feel you need an explicit Artillery Brigade for the Division itself.
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Iva lotta fro
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Questions?

Postby Iva lotta fro » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:03 am

I am currently serving as an Infantrymen in the United States. Granted it is a National Guard unit, but still. If anyone has any questions regarding small unit tactics I would be glad to try to help. Feel free to TG me as well.
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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:03 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Themiclesia wrote:Why are we under the impression that people who study must be unable to maintain their own fitness? I am stating that physical fitness is a preliminary before the entrance exams even take place. I am also stating that (from the military's point of view) if one is good enough to join the military, one is good enough to keep oneself fit, and there are professionals who are employed to ensure that our personnel are fit for duty.

Yes but you're also pursuing a motherfucking master's programme. Soldiering and uni studies are anathema in requirements. One is lots of activity and the other is sitting still for 6 hours on end.

Well, not just any master's programme, but one designed for soldiers. They are enrolled in an institution created for soldiers.

@Registug: it is not a godmod. It is an mutual agreement based in geography which we (viz. New Tyran and I) have reached, that the place is mountainous and reaches -90 degrees Celsius in regularly.
Last edited by Themiclesia on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Horizont » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:06 am

Ea90 wrote:
Horizont wrote:In a world dominated by five superstates, is the Army, the Navy, or the Air Force most important?

It's really impossible to say without more specifics.


What sort of specifics would you need? I'm sure I can provide them.

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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:07 am

Themiclesia wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Yes but you're also pursuing a motherfucking master's programme. Soldiering and uni studies are anathema in requirements. One is lots of activity and the other is sitting still for 6 hours on end.

Well, not just any master's programme, but one designed for soldiers. They are enrolled in an institution created for soldiers.

What does this programme entail beyond what we see in officer training?

Iva lotta fro wrote:I am currently serving as an Infantrymen in the United States. Granted it is a National Guard unit, but still. If anyone has any questions regarding small unit tactics I would be glad to try to help. Feel free to TG me as well.

How much initial training do you undergo and what does it entail?
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Dremaur » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:08 am

Would this soldier be allowed in a MT environment?
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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:10 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Themiclesia wrote:Well, not just any master's programme, but one designed for soldiers. They are enrolled in an institution created for soldiers.

What does this programme entail beyond what we see in officer training?

Nothing, really, besides Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, geography, astronomy, engineering, kinetics, zoology, administration, and mathematics. It's basically officers' training + the usual fare in Theimioi universities. Lectures happen between 6:30 a.m. and 10 a.m., and they're free to do voluntary drilling in the afternoon if they wish.
Last edited by Themiclesia on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Themiclesia » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:10 am

Dremaur wrote:Would this soldier be allowed in a MT environment?

The one lying flat or the one on his knees?

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