NS infantry discussion thread. Mark II

[Tule]

I referred to the weight of the ammunition and the size of the weapon, not mixing the two. That CQBR is clearly too short to be suitable for general issue but much shorter than a conventional carbine, which would make it worthwhile for consideration in the defensive weapon role.

Agreed.

Gunporn edit:

[Nua Corda]

I still think there's purpose to the term battle rifle. If nothing else, it gives me a handy name for a class of weapons I like to rip on. Plus, there's generally a pretty big difference: a battle rifle, firing the heavy cartridge, is most likely going to be used primarily (if not only) in semiautomatic. Assault rifles are intended to be fully automatic weapons, and used as such. Methods of training, combat doctrine, and general employment is going to be different too, because one of them is not very good for suppressing the enemy, and the other one is not very accurate at long-range.

[Purpelia]

If you need your rifles to suppress the enemy what's your machine gunner doing?

[Sediczja]

So I drew up a combat ration menu. Anyone care to tell me how it'd fare, nutrition-wise?

Individual Combat Portion for 24h/Jedeny Bojhu Častina z 24 h.

1x package oat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin beef liver spread
1x tin beef and potato stew
1x tin sliced pears in syrup
1x bar dark chocolate
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, apple
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package buckwheat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin herb and mushroom spread
1x tin pork hash in gravy
1x tin sponge pudding in treacle
1x bar dark chocolate with raisins and peanuts
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, citrus
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package oat porridge with sugar and fruit pieces
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin vegetable and onion spread
1x tin beef and vegetables
1x tin rice pudding
1x bag candied almonds
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, peach
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package oat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin vegetable and onion spread
1x tin tagliatelle noodles in cheese sauce
1x tin chocolate pudding in sauce
1x bag sugared fruit and nut mix
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, tropical
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package buckwheat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin herb and mushroom spread
1x tin split peas and potato slices in tomato sauce
1x tin cheesecake in cream
1x cereal bar
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, berry
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package oat porridge with sugar and fruit pieces
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin bean spread
1x tin vegetable soup
1x tin rice pudding
1x white chocolate bar
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, blackcurrant
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

[Nua Corda]

If you need your rifles to suppress the enemy what's your machine gunner doing?

Killing the enemy. Quit Stalin and get Russian.

So I drew up a combat ration menu. Anyone care to tell me how it'd fare, nutrition-wise?

Individual Combat Portion for 24h/Jedeny Bojhu Častina z 24 h.

1x package oat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin beef liver spread
1x tin beef and potato stew
1x tin sliced pears in syrup
1x bar dark chocolate
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, apple
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package buckwheat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin herb and mushroom spread
1x tin pork hash in gravy
1x tin sponge pudding in treacle
1x bar dark chocolate with raisins and peanuts
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, citrus
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package oat porridge with sugar and fruit pieces
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin vegetable and onion spread
1x tin beef and vegetables
1x tin rice pudding
1x bag candied almonds
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, peach
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package oat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin vegetable and onion spread
1x tin tagliatelle noodles in cheese sauce
1x tin chocolate pudding in sauce
1x bag sugared fruit and nut mix
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, tropical
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package buckwheat porridge with sugar
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin herb and mushroom spread
1x tin split peas and potato slices in tomato sauce
1x tin cheesecake in cream
1x cereal bar
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, berry
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

1x package oat porridge with sugar and fruit pieces
2x packs hard bread wheat crackers, rectangular
1x tin bean spread
1x tin vegetable soup
1x tin rice pudding
1x white chocolate bar
1x beverage and condiment bag
4x packets white sugar
2x packets salt
4x packets powdered milk
2x packets black teabags
2x packets instant black coffee
1x packet fruit drink, blackcurrant
1x folding aluminium solid fuel stove
1x pack of 12 hexamine solid fuel tablets
1x pack of 6 chlorine water purification tablets

Why are you bothering with vegetarian meals? I think if you're in the military, you're past the point where you can really care about animals, given that your job is to kill people. Plus, everyone knows that vegetarians are dirty hippies and shouldn't be any position of responsibility, period.

[Kouralia]

I still think there's purpose to the term battle rifle. If nothing else, it gives me a handy name for a class of weapons I like to rip on. Plus, there's generally a pretty big difference: a battle rifle, firing the heavy cartridge, is most likely going to be used primarily (if not only) in semiautomatic. Assault rifles are intended to be fully automatic weapons, and used as such. Methods of training, combat doctrine, and general employment is going to be different too, because one of them is not very good for suppressing the enemy, and the other one is not very accurate at long-range.

British doctrine calls for the L85 to only be used in Automatic when trench-clearing. I think Repetition's still meant to be used in OBUA.

[Purpelia]

Killing the enemy. Quit Stalin and get Russian.

I just don't see it. The whole point of a squad level MG is to keep enemy heads down so that your boys can rush up to them and give them a good stabbing.

Why are you bothering with vegetarian meals? I think if you're in the military, you're past the point where you can really care about animals, given that your job is to kill people. Plus, everyone knows that vegetarians are dirty hippies and shouldn't be any position of responsibility, period.

I agree with this statement completely.

[Sediczja]

So I drew up a combat ration menu. Anyone care to tell me how it'd fare, nutrition-wise?

-snip-

Why are you bothering with vegetarian meals? I think if you're in the military, you're past the point where you can really care about animals, given that your job is to kill people. Plus, everyone knows that vegetarians are dirty hippies and shouldn't be any position of responsibility, period.

Well, seeing as many militaries have vegetarian ration menus and the Sediczjan army is largely a conscript army, I figured I may as well chuck them in.

[New Tsavon]

I love you too, man.

I love you too.~

No homo, bro.

Anyway, making a quite obvious and direct reference to our esteemed, late forum member "The Ninth Republic" whom was tragically forced to suicide by Nuaeo Corada's biting criticisms of his spaceship linearts should not bring "Belgium" to anyone's mind. Especially not the murderer's. It just shows that his calculating intellect is the fault of random chance rather than deliberate, conscious decision.

Wait. wasn't "Ninth Republic" just one of danton / triplebaconnations puppets, though?

---

Anyways, I hope no one minds if I repost this again. It was rather overlooked the last time.

[Fordorsia]

Killing the enemy. Quit Stalin and get Russian.

I just don't see it. The whole point of a squad level MG is to keep enemy heads down so that your boys can rush up to them and give them a good stabbing.

Rifles suppress. Machine guns suppress more. Mortars and artillery kill.

[Imperializt Russia]

I still think there's purpose to the term battle rifle. If nothing else, it gives me a handy name for a class of weapons I like to rip on. Plus, there's generally a pretty big difference: a battle rifle, firing the heavy cartridge, is most likely going to be used primarily (if not only) in semiautomatic. Assault rifles are intended to be fully automatic weapons, and used as such. Methods of training, combat doctrine, and general employment is going to be different too, because one of them is not very good for suppressing the enemy, and the other one is not very accurate at long-range.

Assault rifles are not primarily automatic weapons.
Those are machine guns.
Assault rifles per intermediate cartridges are more manageable on automatic fire, yes.

If you need your rifles to suppress the enemy what's your machine gunner doing?

In Russia, killing the enemy.

[Nua Corda]

I still think there's purpose to the term battle rifle. If nothing else, it gives me a handy name for a class of weapons I like to rip on. Plus, there's generally a pretty big difference: a battle rifle, firing the heavy cartridge, is most likely going to be used primarily (if not only) in semiautomatic. Assault rifles are intended to be fully automatic weapons, and used as such. Methods of training, combat doctrine, and general employment is going to be different too, because one of them is not very good for suppressing the enemy, and the other one is not very accurate at long-range.

British doctrine calls for the L85 to only be used in Automatic when trench-clearing. I think Repetition's still meant to be used in OBUA.

Yeah, and the British military is full of weird quirks, old traditions, and bizzare holdovers from previous ages. Which, admittedly, is frequently awesome, but not exactly logical in some cases.

Killing the enemy. Quit Stalin and get Russian.

I just don't see it. The whole point of a squad level MG is to keep enemy heads down so that your boys can rush up to them and give them a good stabbing.

Why do I get the feeling we've been down this road before?

I love you too.~

No homo, bro.

Anyway, making a quite obvious and direct reference to our esteemed, late forum member "The Ninth Republic" whom was tragically forced to suicide by Nuaeo Corada's biting criticisms of his spaceship linearts should not bring "Belgium" to anyone's mind. Especially not the murderer's. It just shows that his calculating intellect is the fault of random chance rather than deliberate, conscious decision.

Wait. wasn't "Ninth Republic" just one of danton / triplebaconnations puppets, though?

Oh, gee, Galla making shit up or twisting facts because he thinks it's going to rile me up, who would have thought that might happen?

For the record, I don't remember anything about a poster named ninth republic, or anything to do with spaceship linearts, for that matter.

Wait, if ninth republic is dtn, does that mean dtn is gone? *crosses fingers*

I just don't see it. The whole point of a squad level MG is to keep enemy heads down so that your boys can rush up to them and give them a good stabbing.

Rifles suppress. Machine guns suppress more. Mortars and artillery kill.

This^

[New Tsavon]

Wait. wasn't "Ninth Republic" just one of danton / triplebaconnations puppets, though?

Oh, gee, Galla making shit up or twisting facts because he thinks it's going to rile me up, who would have thought that might happen?

For the record, I don't remember anything about a poster named ninth republic, or anything to do with spaceship linearts, for that matter.

Wait, if ninth republic is dtn, does that mean dtn is gone? *crosses fingers*

Sadly, I don't think that's the case.

[Premislyd]

The irony that a certain poster makes in regards to having a nation deat'd for flamebaiting and flaming in general is truly amusing.

[New Tsavon]

The irony that a certain poster makes in regards to having a nation deat'd for flamebaiting and flaming in general is truly amusing.

It really is.

[Nua Corda]

Oh, gee, Galla making shit up or twisting facts because he thinks it's going to rile me up, who would have thought that might happen?

For the record, I don't remember anything about a poster named ninth republic, or anything to do with spaceship linearts, for that matter.

Wait, if ninth republic is dtn, does that mean dtn is gone? *crosses fingers*

Sadly, I don't think that's the case.

Aw...

The irony that a certain poster makes in regards to having a nation deat'd for flamebaiting and flaming in general is truly amusing.

I mean, I've been deat'd once for posting past ban because I didn't know any better (the ban was for making a delete system 32 joke, which I still think is a crock of shit). I've also gotten two bans after that, for a total of three. Compared to countless b&s, warns and at least two deats that I know about specifically for trolling and flaming, that's nothing.

[Fordorsia]

Okay, this is happening again. TG each other if you want to argue.

[Nua Corda]

Okay, this is happening again. TG each other if you want to argue.

I wouldn't call it an argument. One person is making snarky comments to... feel better about themselves, I guess? The other is defending their reputation. "You're a big meanie!" "No I'm not" isn't much of an argument outside of 3rd grade.

[The Brooke Dynasty]

Are heavier rifle cartridges better suited for jungle warfare because of their better ability to penetrate through thick brush, or are lighter intermediate rounds still superior in this environment, because dense vegetation cuts down on visibility and thus combat range?

[Icatus]

Stay on topic guys.

So how diverse of a military should one have, in relation to navy/air force/armor? Light, Medium, Heavy, and Main Battle Tanks, or just light and MBTs? VTOLs and Runway or just Runway?

Those are just examples, you can say whatever you think.

[Nua Corda]

Are heavier rifle cartridges better suited for jungle warfare because of their better ability to penetrate through thick brush, or are lighter intermediate rounds still superior in this environment, because dense vegetation cuts down on visibility and thus combat range?

The US went into Vietnam with the M14. We came out with the M16A1. The VC and NVA preferred AKs and SKS's. In WWII, SMGs were the best weapon for jungle warfare, especially in the pacific where the Tommy and Grease Gun performed admirably against the entirely rifle-equipped Japanese.

All in all, I would say the latter. Jungle warfare tends to be very short range warfare.

Stay on topic guys.

So how diverse of a military should one have, in relation to navy/air force/armor? Light, Medium, Heavy, and Main Battle Tanks, or just light and MBTs? VTOLs and Runway or just Runway?

Those are just examples, you can say whatever you think.

Those are topics for the Vehicle and Aircraft threads, respectively.

[United states of brazilian nations]

jeez, you guys go through countless pages in a morning. lemme check some things out.

There's only one real question here, and it's this - how big a rifle grenade can you stick at the end of a Lee Enfield with the correct reinforced adapter? The answer is your new family of service rounds - congratulations.

Actually, that reminds me.

I still need to draw a rifle grenade for my M.1905 series of rifles.

did someone say...

rifle grenades?

Found it. Wikipedia says:
"From 1972 to 2003 they reportedly completed over 1,500 missions,[1] discharging their weapons on only five occasions"

I was close enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9#cite_note-1

1972-2003 - so, the years up to their first major deployment in Iraq escorting technical teams, taking casualties and most certainly discharging their weapons? Hmm... :S

And to be honest, if we're going to bandy around poorly substantiated Wikipedia figures, GIGN's arrested over 1000 suspects but have only killed twelve terrorists, four of whom were eliminated in the same operation. Low-kill-to-deployment ratios aren't a German thing, they're a post-Munich counter-terrorist doctrine thing.*

* i.e. not Russia

Spetsnaz logic:

42 hostages.
13 terrorists.
55 bodybags.

mission accomplished.

The majority of troops in WWII never actually shot anyone (in many cases deliberately attempting not to), which may explain an apparent trend in "suppression". People don't like shooting people, as opposed to "rifles don't do much".

It was further noted that having a commanding officer standing over a soldier, even on a firing range, upped the rate of fire and shots on target.

my great-great-grandfather was a german soldier in WWI.

family histories claim that he avoided shooting at enemy troops, and when he did shoot, he usually fired up to the air.

result?

KIA.

now, proceeding to make that thing JG scale. also, before i proceed with all the calculations, let's double-check the round:

(Image)(Image)

so, does it look OK?

I calculate the case capacity as 2.34 cm³, or 36.11 grains. Putting that, plus what I assume is an accurate representation of your bullet into Load ammo, I got 760 m/s from a 508mm barrel at 55kpsi and 780 m/s at 58kpsi.

nice, now i've got an accurate case capacity. also, this is the boolit. i suppose i could use a 10.4 sec. density though, taking me up to 107 grains of boolit weight.

780 m/s? mighty nice! could i get all that pressure safely?

(Image)

making of cool 5.56 avn.

admittely, yours is of less herectic

EDIT:

Okay, this is happening again. TG each other if you want to argue.

I wouldn't call it an argument. One person is making snarky comments to... feel better about themselves, I guess? The other is defending their reputation. "You're a big meanie!" "No I'm not" isn't much of an argument outside of 3rd grade.

sounds like cold war.
3rd grade:
"i haz more pencils than yuo!" "but i haz more crayons than yuo!"

cold war:
"i have more nukes than you, dirty commie!" "nyet, i haz more nukes than you, capitalist pig!

Are heavier rifle cartridges better suited for jungle warfare because of their better ability to penetrate through thick brush, or are lighter intermediate rounds still superior in this environment, because dense vegetation cuts down on visibility and thus combat range?

The US went into Vietnam with the M14. We came out with the M16A1. The VC and NVA preferred AKs and SKS's. In WWII, SMGs were the best weapon for jungle warfare, especially in the pacific where the Tommy and Grease Gun performed admirably against the entirely rifle-equipped Japanese.

All in all, I would say the latter. Jungle warfare tends to be very short range warfare.

brazilian army uses FAL in amazonic jungle of much tropical and denseiness.

your argument is invalid.

it's being replaced by the IMBEL IA2 tho

[Tule]

Are heavier rifle cartridges better suited for jungle warfare because of their better ability to penetrate through thick brush, or are lighter intermediate rounds still superior in this environment, because dense vegetation cuts down on visibility and thus combat range?

Heavier bullets are advantageous in jungle warfare because they tend to have better barrier penetration.

[The Brooke Dynasty]

Stay on topic guys.

So how diverse of a military should one have, in relation to navy/air force/armor? Light, Medium, Heavy, and Main Battle Tanks, or just light and MBTs? VTOLs and Runway or just Runway?

Those are just examples, you can say whatever you think.

In terms of vehicles used by your ground forces, simplicity is your friend. MBTs can do most of what light, medium, and heavy tanks do, and without the hassle of maintaining four different vehicles. Light tanks are also getting less and less useful when compared with IFVs, because they don't offer much extra in terms of firepower, and they don't double as troop transports. Just go MBT and IFV/APC. Everything else is just going to make things tougher on your maintenance crews, without providing much in terms of benefit.

In terms of airforce, it's more a question of doctrine. If your air force is mostly for deterrence, only runway capable aircraft are going to be enough. If you're planning for a total war scenario, where your bases get hit, STOL and VTOL aircraft suddenly become much more important.

[The Brooke Dynasty]

Are heavier rifle cartridges better suited for jungle warfare because of their better ability to penetrate through thick brush, or are lighter intermediate rounds still superior in this environment, because dense vegetation cuts down on visibility and thus combat range?

Heavier bullets are advantageous in jungle warfare because they tend to have better barrier penetration.

Fair distinction, although most intermediate rounds have lighter bullets as well as cartridges.

EDIT: So what I'm getting from the crowd seems to be: lighter rounds for main infantry weapon, but backed up with a squad-level GPMG (full size rifle cartridge, not intermediate, screw ammo compatibility) for barrier penetration and glorious suppressing fire. Sound about right?