NS infantry discussion thread. Mark II

[Kouralia]

By how much can I shorten a round if I make it metal storm, in terms of length of a round and propellent compared to a regular cased bullet.

Also, could I use a speed-loader in a metal storm revolver?

[Aethal]

By how much can I shorten a round if I make it metal storm, in terms of length of a round and propellent compared to a regular cased bullet.

Also, could I use a speed-loader in a metal storm revolver?

I have nary a clue.


And Samoz, I say the same I said to Kour just a second ago, I have nary a clue.

[Kouralia]

Anyone see this yet?


(Image)

Are you fucking kidding me, not duplex, not triplex, but sexplex ammunition? I must use this in my Nock Gun expy.

[Imperializt Russia]

Can't remember if the 12.7mm round or the 15.7mm round, but I imagine very short. The grenades have contained propellant, not 100% sure how the bullets mounted their propellant.

The 9mm MS round has a definite kind of stalk in its base, which I assume is for like a brick of solid propellant to be fitted.
The ammunition comparison they have stacks their 60mm mortar shell, 40mm grenade, 15.7mm 2nd Gen bullet and 9mm bullet together. Since the grenade is ~96mm, I estimate the 15.7mm bullet at ~60mm long and the 9mm bullet at 20-25mm OAL including that stalk. The 15.7mm bullet has no conspicuous stalk so may have self-contained propellant within the base of the projectile.

[Aethal]

Anyone see this yet?


(Image)

Are you fucking kidding me, not duplex, not triplex, but sexplex ammunition? I must use this in my Nock Gun expy.

Yes, yes you should. In fact, you should have a compact lead spewing automatic chambered in it.

[Kouralia]

Can't remember if the 12.7mm round or the 15.7mm round, but I imagine very short. The grenades have contained propellant, not 100% sure how the bullets mounted their propellant.

The 9mm MS round has a definite kind of stalk in its base, which I assume is for like a brick of solid propellant to be fitted.
The ammunition comparison they have stacks their 60mm mortar shell, 40mm grenade, 15.7mm 2nd Gen bullet and 9mm bullet together. Since the grenade is ~96mm, I estimate the 15.7mm bullet at ~60mm long and the 9mm bullet at 20-25mm OAL including that stalk. The 15.7mm bullet has no conspicuous stalk so may have self-contained propellant within the base of the projectile.

So, basically I could take a ~23mm long bullet (i.e. .45ACP) and make it, say, 30mm long in total?

Are you fucking kidding me, not duplex, not triplex, but sexplex ammunition? I must use this in my Nock Gun expy.

Yes, yes you should. In fact, you should have a compact lead spewing automatic chambered in it.

Yes, indeed. Or have my Royal Guard+1 dudes use it. The only thing is atm they're the ones using the 18 round revolver.

[Aethal]

Was there a quotederping there?

[Kouralia]

Was there a quotederping there?

noep
<.<
>.>

[Imperializt Russia]

Can't remember if the 12.7mm round or the 15.7mm round, but I imagine very short. The grenades have contained propellant, not 100% sure how the bullets mounted their propellant.

The 9mm MS round has a definite kind of stalk in its base, which I assume is for like a brick of solid propellant to be fitted.
The ammunition comparison they have stacks their 60mm mortar shell, 40mm grenade, 15.7mm 2nd Gen bullet and 9mm bullet together. Since the grenade is ~96mm, I estimate the 15.7mm bullet at ~60mm long and the 9mm bullet at 20-25mm OAL including that stalk. The 15.7mm bullet has no conspicuous stalk so may have self-contained propellant within the base of the projectile.

So, basically I could take a ~23mm long bullet (i.e. .45ACP) and make it, say, 30mm long in total?

Eh, probably.

Obviously it makes for some saving in length (though that's more an academic concern unless you're loading cartridges rather than barrels, like you would on the later AICW concepts and on my own OICW).
The 15.7mm bullet is almost the exact same length as the 12.7x99mm bullet and like I said before, may actually have a self-contained propellant.
I imagine on that basis, the increased calibre may be to retain the mass of the 12.7mm bullet equivalent. Its shape for a bullet, boxy as balls, also implies its intent in systems like the shipboard close-defence that I posted about, for short-range work.

[Kouralia]

So, basically I could take a ~23mm long bullet (i.e. .45ACP) and make it, say, 30mm long in total?

Eh, probably.

Obviously it makes for some saving in length (though that's more an academic concern unless you're loading cartridges rather than barrels, like you would on the later AICW concepts and on my own OICW).
The 15.7mm bullet is almost the exact same length as the 12.7x99mm bullet and like I said before, may actually have a self-contained propellant.
I imagine on that basis, the increased calibre may be to retain the mass of the 12.7mm bullet equivalent. Its shape for a bullet, boxy as balls, also implies its intent in systems like the shipboard close-defence that I posted about, for short-range work.

Tbf, this is for a revolver for the Kouralian Company of HM Musketeers, ~100 elite guardsmen whose job is to look bad-ass as fuck, expy The Musketeers and kill anyone who tries to harm the Royal Family.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Tbh looking at it in perspective, it seems like time (and money) well spent. Indeed, some skills covered involve using equipment that the regular GI won't be carrying on his person. But perhaps at least some of that equipment is available, even in 1 specimen at least in the vehicle if not in the dismounted squad. (or give them the stuff only when they're acting as medics) I reckon it should come in handy in situations with many injured soldiers, or when help isn't readily available, or in humanitarian actions (whether domestic or foreign) .

After all, you're training that grunt to kill for weeks or even months on end, you could at least give him a couple of weeks worth of medical training for a change. By no means is this supposed to replace more highly skilled medics ; rather, it allows the regular G.I. to be of more help (rather than a nuisance) to medics.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my civilian emergency services (police, fire)

Most of a grunts training isn't about killing, its about forming him into a soldier who acts as part of a unit. That takes time to do right, after that you start moving into more advanced skills that they will actually use for killing. So you are just adding in training that they won't use.

Medics might carry a bag valve mask, that makes sense, but a back board, cervical collars, or oxygen tanks are right out of the question. Its stupid to have those in anything other than a dedicated ambulance. They just don't get used that much, cost money and take up space. I'm a life guard and most pools stop have one backboard for hundreds of people, because you will never need more than that. Anything more complicated isn't worth having around because you need a lot more dedicated training to make sure you use it right and in the right situations and you won't need it in the time it takes the properly trained people to arrive.

On the battlefield most injuries aren't going to come anywhere close to needing that equipment, and training, from your grunts. Medics should be at the very least around in sufficient numbers at the company level, if not the platoon level. Which means a fully trained and equipped medic should be around to actually do the important bits of first aid in a couple of minutes. Which means your grunt needs to be able to extend his "patients" life for only a short amount of time. For this he needs to know how to deal with large bleeding injuries, CPR and when he can't do anything. Thats a couple of hours with maybe a day of practical training, if you want to you can add the minor stuff in with the major stuff I just listed, not useful in a combat situation sure but useful for people to know in general. But that is at most 2 days of training and practical hands on training.

If you want to go above that level you start looking at weeks/months to properly train someone so they won't misdiagnose or improperly treat a patient, and thats just so you can properly stabilize someone and transport them to a doctor. Essentially what your EMT/Medic is already doing. Above that you need years of training to know how to fix people. My mom who is trained enough to act as an assistant for heart surgery/emergency room work/paramedic thinks the only equipment you need to readily have at the lower levels or response are large bandages, duct tape, and one way valve masks for CPR. Anything more than that gets way to situational and you start needing training to use all of it.

Now in a humanitarian situation your troops will be arriving after the most of those skills will be useful. Sure let the medics help in search and rescue, but the grunts will be far more useful moving supplies and keeping order. If they are caught in the situation as it starts you have bigger things to worry about but they still aren't going to be adding much to first aid by having those skills. A good medic can "train" someone to help them while they are helping, the important bit is knowing when to use a skill and that takes training that is wasted on a grunt.

Feel free to have basic first aid for police/fire fighters, but it should only be what is necessary in the first 5 minutes of care. Which is CPR, stopping bleeding and knowing when not to move someone. Firefighters should get trained on how to move someone, but hey they spend time actually training in emergency response not fighting a war.

Goddammit, you're making a really good argument I appreciate taking the time.

But really, around here I've seen even the position of (1 single) platoon medic questioned.

I guess just first aid will do.

Anyways, wanna help me sort out some stuff with my medics? I decided that I'm going to have emergency medicine physicians (or practitioners.. what's the difference again? ) like some European states do (any info on them would be greatly appreciated as I don't really speak any European language apart from, well, English [my german is shit] so researching isn't as handy) . But really, they'll mostly be supervisors / medical directors, I think. Probably the highest educated person you'll usually find in an actual ambulance will have a 2 year associate's degree or something. So I have to choose between:

JEMCP (Junior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - 2 year academic (associate's degree)
EMCP (Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - 4 year academic (bachelor's degree)
SEMCP (Senior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - master's degree
EMD (Emergency Medicine Doctor) - doctoral degree

and

APM (Advanced Paramedic) - associate's degree
JEMCP (Junior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - bachelor's degree
EMCP (Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - master's degree
SEMCP (Senior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - doc degree

[Spreewerke]

There's no need for dumb subsonic or rubber bullets. Or dumber taser bullets.

A 9mm hole in an airliner isn't going to kill everyone on board or even be particularly noticeable - that's just Hollywood nonsense.

US Air Marshals carry pistols loaded with comfortably supersonic hollowpoints. Lethality is more important than not poking a hole in a plane.

Machine guns...

I doubt people are suggesting subsonic/rubber/taser cartridges because of airline damage. It goes more with the fact you're opening fire around dozens of civilians both in front of, behind, and beside your target.

[Sevvania]

Anyone see this yet?


(Image)

Well it's definitely interesting, but I would think by that point you'd be better off just using a conventional shot shell.

[Aethal]

Anyone see this yet?


(Image)

Well it's definitely interesting, but I would think by that point you'd be better off just using a conventional shot shell.

Come now Sev, load an smg o' yours with ammo like that. Be "that guy" and mow down rebels and/or rioters.

[Aethal]

Apparently, this was/is a "thing".

[Sevvania]

Well it's definitely interesting, but I would think by that point you'd be better off just using a conventional shot shell.

Come now Sev, load an smg o' yours with ammo like that. Be "that guy" and mow down rebels and/or rioters.

What kind of performance are you going to get out of low powder capacity and a stack of bullets that are of similar dimensions to conical Smarties candies?

[Aethal]

Come now Sev, load an smg o' yours with ammo like that. Be "that guy" and mow down rebels and/or rioters.

What kind of performance are you going to get out of low powder capacity and a stack of bullets that are of similar dimensions to conical Smarties candies?

No-one ever said you couldn't devise your own payload in a proprietary casing of your own design.


I really don't want to appear as "that jackass who keeps rambling on about random things", but come now folks, a bit of cleverness, ingenuity, design fiddling and handwavery! Somebody, someone, just bloody-well make something new and awesome.

[Spirit of Hope]

Most of a grunts training isn't about killing, its about forming him into a soldier who acts as part of a unit. That takes time to do right, after that you start moving into more advanced skills that they will actually use for killing. So you are just adding in training that they won't use.

Medics might carry a bag valve mask, that makes sense, but a back board, cervical collars, or oxygen tanks are right out of the question. Its stupid to have those in anything other than a dedicated ambulance. They just don't get used that much, cost money and take up space. I'm a life guard and most pools stop have one backboard for hundreds of people, because you will never need more than that. Anything more complicated isn't worth having around because you need a lot more dedicated training to make sure you use it right and in the right situations and you won't need it in the time it takes the properly trained people to arrive.

On the battlefield most injuries aren't going to come anywhere close to needing that equipment, and training, from your grunts. Medics should be at the very least around in sufficient numbers at the company level, if not the platoon level. Which means a fully trained and equipped medic should be around to actually do the important bits of first aid in a couple of minutes. Which means your grunt needs to be able to extend his "patients" life for only a short amount of time. For this he needs to know how to deal with large bleeding injuries, CPR and when he can't do anything. Thats a couple of hours with maybe a day of practical training, if you want to you can add the minor stuff in with the major stuff I just listed, not useful in a combat situation sure but useful for people to know in general. But that is at most 2 days of training and practical hands on training.

If you want to go above that level you start looking at weeks/months to properly train someone so they won't misdiagnose or improperly treat a patient, and thats just so you can properly stabilize someone and transport them to a doctor. Essentially what your EMT/Medic is already doing. Above that you need years of training to know how to fix people. My mom who is trained enough to act as an assistant for heart surgery/emergency room work/paramedic thinks the only equipment you need to readily have at the lower levels or response are large bandages, duct tape, and one way valve masks for CPR. Anything more than that gets way to situational and you start needing training to use all of it.

Now in a humanitarian situation your troops will be arriving after the most of those skills will be useful. Sure let the medics help in search and rescue, but the grunts will be far more useful moving supplies and keeping order. If they are caught in the situation as it starts you have bigger things to worry about but they still aren't going to be adding much to first aid by having those skills. A good medic can "train" someone to help them while they are helping, the important bit is knowing when to use a skill and that takes training that is wasted on a grunt.

Feel free to have basic first aid for police/fire fighters, but it should only be what is necessary in the first 5 minutes of care. Which is CPR, stopping bleeding and knowing when not to move someone. Firefighters should get trained on how to move someone, but hey they spend time actually training in emergency response not fighting a war.

Goddammit, you're making a really good argument I appreciate taking the time.

But really, around here I've seen even the position of (1 single) platoon medic questioned.

I guess just first aid will do.

Anyways, wanna help me sort out some stuff with my medics? I decided that I'm going to have emergency medicine physicians (or practitioners.. what's the difference again? ) like some European states do (any info on them would be greatly appreciated as I don't really speak any European language apart from, well, English [my german is shit] so researching isn't as handy) . But really, they'll mostly be supervisors / medical directors, I think. Probably the highest educated person you'll usually find in an actual ambulance will have a 2 year associate's degree or something. So I have to choose between:

JEMCP (Junior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - 2 year academic (associate's degree)
EMCP (Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - 4 year academic (bachelor's degree)
SEMCP (Senior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - master's degree
EMD (Emergency Medicine Doctor) - doctoral degree

and

APM (Advanced Paramedic) - associate's degree
JEMCP (Junior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - bachelor's degree
EMCP (Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - master's degree
SEMCP (Senior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - doc degree

I was bored at lunch, so it wasn't that much work. I have some experience with first aid and emergency responder stuff, so I know enough to point people in the right direction. I feel like 1 medic per platoon is good, since if you figure 10% casualties per engagement that means he is dealing with 3-5 wounded/dead, and if it goes more than that you probably are in more trouble than extra medics will fix.

As to EMTs/Paramedics I have limited experience but here is what I know.

In the US there tends to be two groups. The first gets a couple weeks of dedicated training, they tend to be part time/volunteer and file they can generally handle emergency situations they are more often used for transport of non critical cases. I've often heard its a good gig for college students looking to go into medicine to give you an idea of there competency.

The second group gets more training (I've heard around 1 month or a little more) and they tend to be the emergency response people. Often attached to the fire department, in some smaller towns cities if the EMTs are sent they also send a fire truck. Almost universally if a fire truck goes somewhere an ambulance isn't far behind. Also they tend to have all kinds of opportunity to increase there pay, by getting more qualifications for various random pieces of medical equipment. Earlier I mentioned my mom, she has like a dozen qualifications that are technically not necessary for her job but really useful to know, and thus they pay a little extra for her to have them.

Above that you start getting nurses which is between a 2-4 year program depending on the school and level of depth. They tend to be generalized and get more specific training at there job into the specifics. There are so many different types of nurses its scary, plus there is generally a nurse shortage because it doesn't pay the best and many go into it for only a couple of years before finding a better job and or marrying and dropping the job.

Above that is doctors who take years of training depending on the level they are going for. At hospitals they make the plans and the nurses carry them out, except for surgery where they do the work and the nurse hand them tools.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Goddammit, you're making a really good argument I appreciate taking the time.

But really, around here I've seen even the position of (1 single) platoon medic questioned.

I guess just first aid will do.

Anyways, wanna help me sort out some stuff with my medics? I decided that I'm going to have emergency medicine physicians (or practitioners.. what's the difference again? ) like some European states do (any info on them would be greatly appreciated as I don't really speak any European language apart from, well, English [my german is shit] so researching isn't as handy) . But really, they'll mostly be supervisors / medical directors, I think. Probably the highest educated person you'll usually find in an actual ambulance will have a 2 year associate's degree or something. So I have to choose between:

JEMCP (Junior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - 2 year academic (associate's degree)
EMCP (Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - 4 year academic (bachelor's degree)
SEMCP (Senior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - master's degree
EMD (Emergency Medicine Doctor) - doctoral degree

and

APM (Advanced Paramedic) - associate's degree
JEMCP (Junior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - bachelor's degree
EMCP (Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - master's degree
SEMCP (Senior Emergency Medicine Practitioner/Physician) - doc degree

I was bored at lunch, so it wasn't that much work. I have some experience with first aid and emergency responder stuff, so I know enough to point people in the right direction. I feel like 1 medic per platoon is good, since if you figure 10% casualties per engagement that means he is dealing with 3-5 wounded/dead, and if it goes more than that you probably are in more trouble than extra medics will fix.

As to EMTs/Paramedics I have limited experience but here is what I know.

In the US there tends to be two groups. The first gets a couple weeks of dedicated training, they tend to be part time/volunteer and file they can generally handle emergency situations they are more often used for transport of non critical cases. I've often heard its a good gig for college students looking to go into medicine to give you an idea of there competency.

The second group gets more training (I've heard around 1 month or a little more) and they tend to be the emergency response people. Often attached to the fire department, in some smaller towns cities if the EMTs are sent they also send a fire truck. Almost universally if a fire truck goes somewhere an ambulance isn't far behind. Also they tend to have all kinds of opportunity to increase there pay, by getting more qualifications for various random pieces of medical equipment. Earlier I mentioned my mom, she has like a dozen qualifications that are technically not necessary for her job but really useful to know, and thus they pay a little extra for her to have them.

Above that you start getting nurses which is between a 2-4 year program depending on the school and level of depth. They tend to be generalized and get more specific training at there job into the specifics. There are so many different types of nurses its scary, plus there is generally a nurse shortage because it doesn't pay the best and many go into it for only a couple of years before finding a better job and or marrying and dropping the job.

Above that is doctors who take years of training depending on the level they are going for. At hospitals they make the plans and the nurses carry them out, except for surgery where they do the work and the nurse hand them tools.

Interesting stuff. I've researched the US system of EMS quite a great deal myself and one of the most striking dissimilarities with Europe is the lack of actual physicians/practitioners (people with an academic degree) . What I intend to do for my nation is basically a cross between the US and European styles of EMS, but it will probably tend more towards the US. Probably the reason why EMS is the way it is in the US (and I am not questioning its' quality by any means) is because in Europe healthcare is a lot more public than it is in the US. Having actual physicians in EMS probably doesn't "pay for itself" so to speak whereas in Europe this is of less concern because of more extensive public funding.

In the US you really have two main types of EMS personnel: EMTs and Paramedics. EMTs have only basic (100-200h) training and responsibilities (for example they cannot give IV meds [in reality it is much more complicated ; stuff like EMT-B-IV "add-on"s exist and it really depends on jurisdiction] ) and they staff BLS ambulances. Their training takes several months (let's say 6) . IIRC some (if not most?) fire departments require EMT certification for firefighters.

Paramedics on the other hand, receive much more extensive training and have greater responsibilities. Being an EMT is a prerequisite. Training usually lasts for about 2 years (~1500h of class iirc), and completing it pretty much just falls short of an associate's degree (which is only required in few places) .

I've created my own EMS certification levels, they pretty much merge a number of different US certification levels but then you also have emergency physicians. As you can see Tier 4 is WIP.

[United states of brazilian nations]

Boy oh boy, I haven't posted here in a while.

on to srs bsns: I need some suggestions for how I should organize this nation's military force and some other suggestions for a battle rifle/notFAL design. :3

someone said notFAL?

google IMBEL IA2 for maximum glory. there are assault rifle and battle rifle variants. it's essentialy a FAL with a rotatng bolt instead of a tilting bolt that will soon replace the FAL in service with brazilian forces IRL.

base your design off it and you're golden.

reliability is awesome
even liveleak thinks this rifle is awesome

all variants

[Aqizithiuda]

Anyone see this yet?


(Image)

Penetration is pretty low, about 6-7 inches, and that's with only 3 projectiles.

[Arkandros]

What kind of performance are you going to get out of low powder capacity and a stack of bullets that are of similar dimensions to conical Smarties candies?

No-one ever said you couldn't devise your own payload in a proprietary casing of your own design.


I really don't want to appear as "that jackass who keeps rambling on about random things", but come now folks, a bit of cleverness, ingenuity, design fiddling and handwavery! Somebody, someone, just bloody-well make something new and awesome.

I independently thought up the Black Talon round a few years ago, without knowing it already existed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon
The idea was to have long bars of a hard metal (in a radially symmetrical pattern) contained within a copper hollowpoint rifle round. Upon impact and mushrooming, the long bars would be angled away from the center of the round, turning into a metal star and tearing through flesh, causing much more damage than a traditional round. Too bad Winchester beat me to it.

[Spreewerke]

No-one ever said you couldn't devise your own payload in a proprietary casing of your own design.


I really don't want to appear as "that jackass who keeps rambling on about random things", but come now folks, a bit of cleverness, ingenuity, design fiddling and handwavery! Somebody, someone, just bloody-well make something new and awesome.

I independently thought up the Black Talon round a few years ago, without knowing it already existed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon
The idea was to have long bars of a hard metal (in a radially symmetrical pattern) contained within a copper hollowpoint rifle round. Upon impact and mushrooming, the long bars would be angled away from the center of the round, turning into a metal star and tearing through flesh, causing much more damage than a traditional round. Too bad Winchester beat me to it.

That is how basically every hollow point works. The BT just happened to be one of the better HP designs. It goes by the SXT now and is different in appearance by color only ("Same eXact Thing").

[Arkandros]

I independently thought up the Black Talon round a few years ago, without knowing it already existed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon
The idea was to have long bars of a hard metal (in a radially symmetrical pattern) contained within a copper hollowpoint rifle round. Upon impact and mushrooming, the long bars would be angled away from the center of the round, turning into a metal star and tearing through flesh, causing much more damage than a traditional round. Too bad Winchester beat me to it.

That is how basically every hollow point works. The BT just happened to be one of the better HP designs. It goes by the SXT now and is different in appearance by color only ("Same eXact Thing").

Yeah, so I gathered from the wiki. The only real difference I was thinking was the bars would provide the additional wounding power, rather than the flattening of the round like a traditional hollowpoint. It's a moot point anyway.

[Black Hand]

That is how basically every hollow point works. The BT just happened to be one of the better HP designs. It goes by the SXT now and is different in appearance by color only ("Same eXact Thing").

Yeah, so I gathered from the wiki. The only real difference I was thinking was the bars would provide the additional wounding power, rather than the flattening of the round like a traditional hollowpoint. It's a moot point anyway.

look up the R.I.P G2 I eagerly await it. sadly it isn't coming in 9X18 so it won't work in the PM I'm going to be sharing with my father. (it's going be his until I am old enough to possess it, or until I'm done with basic because I believe that in turn exempts me from some state firearm laws I need to check though)