NS infantry discussion thread. Mark II

[Transnapastain]

Let me tell you a story. A while back, I went to Poland. This was near the end of the cold war, so everyone was still a little on edge. Anyway, I was taking a plane from Warsaw to Krakow, and as we boarded on the tarmac, there was a military officer in front of the plane with a machine gun. I don't mean assault rifle; I mean a big ol' PKM. During the entire flight, he just stood at the front, holding that gun. He just watched the passengers, to make sure no one tried to hijack the plane. His presence, and the passenger's awareness of his presence, was as effective, if not more so, than that of any air marshal's actions. Hands down the safest I have ever felt on a plane, regardless of country. Moral of the story: Seeing a security officer can be much more effective than the guard himself. you'd think twice before charging a giant holding a machine gun when you are wielding a boxcutter. Plainclothes officer? Not so much.
Secondly, rubber rounds are designed to be nonlethal. can they cause injury? You bet. Can they kill? Very rarely. According the following study, targets directly fired at had a 1 in 90 chance of lethal wounds. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bjs.1800620613/abstract keep in mind that those statistics are for targets directly in the line of fire with the weapon aimed at the chest, resulting in the high rate of neck and face wounds- modern training directs users to aim for the gut to avoid vital organs.

A PKM on a commercial airliner is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of. Sure, you'll hit the guy with a boxcutter, but your 7.62x54mmR also just cut through rows A through E.

Never mind the hull.

As to the rest of that...officer presence is, indeed, the first step in the use of force continuum. I can believe there are arguments for unformed officers to preform inflight security. There is zero reason to equip them with a PKM.

The same can be said for any sort of shot gun. I was going to ask if you've ever been on a plane...obviously, assuming your store is true...you have. Therefore, it should be readily obvious that attempting to use any sort of long arm on a crowded plane is a situation to be avoided. As soon as shit starts...people are going to panic, they're going to leave their seats, move around, and generally get in the way of the officer who is trying to bring his unwieldy weapon to bare. Thus maximizing the chance of a miss....of hitting a civilian, or even allowing the hijacker time to take hostage. ...A less-lethal round at the ranges being discussed here....with such a high chance to strike a target in a vital area like the head....really losses ALL of its utility as a less lethal round. Rendering it useless. Its only remaining advantage over standard buckshot is its inability to puncture the hull of the aircraft and succeed in doing what the hijacker probably intended in the first place

To wit, killing every fucker on the plane.

Handguns with subsonic rounds, Galsers, or other specificity rounds are the way to go. If you must derp and use a shotgun, use XREP round. All the less-lethal benefit with none of the drawbacks. In this case, the minimum range of 0 ft is perfect, and the maximum range of 65 feet is inconsequential.

[Doppio Giudici]

Does anyone know where the PMT people hang on here? I need some information about something I write privately, like sabot rounds in firearms.

Sabots are far from PMT. What do you want to know specifically?

The military was running tests into two things at once to improve current body armor. The first one was fibers much stronger then Kelvar, they were looking into humans and animals for these kind of materials. The second was a fluid that hardened on impact, so it was very light but capable of being highly effective at absorbing shockwaves.

I was considering putting the later in the former around 2030ish.

[Black Hand]

also a proposal, so a dome shaped explosive charge with deep cones cut into the surface and then lined with copper to make an anti vehicle charge, rather than attempting a single armor defeat. part of this is also to maintain some effectiveness against infantry. and the armor penetration is sometimes necessary given what my opponents field infantry wise.

guys?

[Aqizithiuda]

Sabots are far from PMT. What do you want to know specifically?

The military was running tests into two things at once to improve current body armor. The first one was fibers much stronger then Kelvar, they were looking into humans and animals for these kind of materials. The second was a fluid that hardened on impact, so it was very light but capable of being highly effective at absorbing shockwaves.

I was considering putting the later in the former around 2030ish.

STF doesn't so much reduce weight for an equivalent protection as it reduces bulk for an equivalent level of protection.

For example, if I recall correctly, 4 layers of STF treated Kevlar are equivalent in weight and protection against penetration as 10 layers. I don't know what, if any, spreading out of the impact force occurs, however, so it's probably not possible for STF treated soft body armour to replace hard body armour, if that's what you're thinking.

also a proposal, so a dome shaped explosive charge with deep cones cut into the surface and then lined with copper to make an anti vehicle charge, rather than attempting a single armor defeat. part of this is also to maintain some effectiveness against infantry. and the armor penetration is sometimes necessary given what my opponents field infantry wise.

guys?

it's a shaped charge. What's to know?

[Black Hand]

guys?

it's a shaped charge. What's to know?

cones

i'm referring to plural, would that be worth while? the idea being that it would create multiple jets rather than a single one.

[Sevvania]

Bloop bloop.

[Aqizithiuda]

it's a shaped charge. What's to know?

cones

i'm referring to plural, would that be worth while? the idea being that it would create multiple jets rather than a single one.

A MEFP, then.


What's the round for, and how is it typically deployed?

[Black Hand]

i'm referring to plural, would that be worth while? the idea being that it would create multiple jets rather than a single one.

A MEFP, then.


What's the round for, and how is it typically deployed?

It's a multirole Mine, designed to perforate light to medium armored vehicles and kill power armored infantry somewhat effectively. two versions a conventional mine and a standoff version

I'm thinking of this because no one answered me as to how well I could combine a SLAM and a Claymore effectively. I want a decent multirole area denial weapon.

[Arkandros]

talking about the armor, i will repost what i wrote a day or so ago to another poster.
I would suggest using non-Newtonian materials, particularly shear thickening materials, like oobleck. Shear thickening materials are defined by their increased strength and rigidity under stress, not consistent with standard Newtonian mechanics. It would allow for free motion, while still protecting against impacts in a fashion similar to plate armor. Combine this with the properties of silicone polymers (Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS), for example, which gives silly putty it's anomalous properties of being able to ooze, bounce, or shatter) and you could construct a material with impact properties analogous to ceramic plates, while simultaneously self-repairing/reconstructing.

shear thickening was probably the property of the material you were talking about. The most common (and easy to make) version is colloquially called oobleck (which is often used to describe any shear thickening fluid), a mixture of corn starch and water. the other thing you were talking about (the fibers) may have been carbon nanotubes, which have been shown to have far greater tensile strength than kevlar (appx. 3-5x, depending on purity and manufacturing quality). Shear thickening armor wouldn't be too hard to execute with focused R&D, but carbon nanotubes are waiting for a major technological breakthrough. That's another Einstein away.

[3 State Alliance]

(Image)
Bloop bloop.

I can't help thinking its a little heavy....

[Imperializt Russia]

Air marshals stop hijackers from taking over planes and doing really bad things with them.

Aah.

Well in that case it would be an APR-86C compact pistol converted to be semi-automatic only, and also converted to fire .45 Nko subsonic ammunition (as opposed to the native and obsolete 10x25 Benomian).

You're aware the outer skin of an airliner is a millimetre thick, right?

Because dozens of pellets flying at face-level in a commercial airliner is the absolute best of ideas, especially when Air Marshals are plainclothes.

Let me tell you a story. A while back, I went to Poland. This was near the end of the cold war, so everyone was still a little on edge. Anyway, I was taking a plane from Warsaw to Krakow, and as we boarded on the tarmac, there was a military officer in front of the plane with a machine gun. I don't mean assault rifle; I mean a big ol' PKM. During the entire flight, he just stood at the front, holding that gun. He just watched the passengers, to make sure no one tried to hijack the plane. His presence, and the passenger's awareness of his presence, was as effective, if not more so, than that of any air marshal's actions. Hands down the safest I have ever felt on a plane, regardless of country. Moral of the story: Seeing a security officer can be much more effective than the guard himself. you'd think twice before charging a giant holding a machine gun when you are wielding a boxcutter. Plainclothes officer? Not so much.
Secondly, rubber rounds are designed to be nonlethal. can they cause injury? You bet. Can they kill? Very rarely. According the following study, targets directly fired at had a 1 in 90 chance of lethal wounds. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bjs.1800620613/abstract keep in mind that those statistics are for targets directly in the line of fire with the weapon aimed at the chest, resulting in the high rate of neck and face wounds- modern training directs users to aim for the gut to avoid vital organs.

Shooting at even about twenty yards would put an unacceptable number of faces into the fire danger zones. Remember that if you're standing and everyone around you is seated, their heads are roughly at weapon height.
Also shotgun muzzle blast.

A PKM on a commercial airliner is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of. Sure, you'll hit the guy with a boxcutter, but your 7.62x54mmR also just cut through rows A through E.

Not to mention how incredibly bulky and completely useless it would be to have a belt fed machine gun on a plane.

The Russians have already thought of this, you see.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/k_a_r_d_ ... iginal.jpg

WELCOME TO COLD WAR POLAND! Where you'll get shot on the street for crimes! And sometimes you'll be shot even if you didn't do anything! Different times, pal.

I don't think the Cold War necessitates strategical retardation. I have had relatives fly internationally in Soviet countries during the Cold War, and I recall absolutely no stories involving armed guards on the airliner itself. This was in Hungary, however. Regardless, whether it happened or not, a PKM in a confined, civilian-filled, pressurized, airborne tube is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of in my life. If I wanted to inflict civilian casualties on that flight, I'd conduct standard insurgent procedure. Either way I'm dying: if I succeed, I down the plane. If I fail, the government just killed a few dozen of its own civilians.

I think you're conflating "hijacker" with "jihadist".
Sometimes, they just want hostages.

You can't spend ransom money if you and all your hostages are dead.

The same can be said for any sort of shot gun. I was going to ask if you've ever been on a plane...obviously, assuming your store is true...you have. Therefore, it should be readily obvious that attempting to use any sort of long arm on a crowded plane is a situation to be avoided. As soon as shit starts...people are going to panic, they're going to leave their seats, move around, and generally get in the way of the officer who is trying to bring his unwieldy weapon to bare. Thus maximizing the chance of a miss....of hitting a civilian, or even allowing the hijacker time to take hostage. ...A less-lethal round at the ranges being discussed here....with such a high chance to strike a target in a vital area like the head....really losses ALL of its utility as a less lethal round. Rendering it useless. Its only remaining advantage over standard buckshot is its inability to puncture the hull of the aircraft and succeed in doing what the hijacker probably intended in the first place

To wit, killing every fucker on the plane.

In a room or in the street, where that's a possibility, I imagine they would.

On a place, where your only option is your seat or into one of two variously armed individuals, I figure most people will be frozen in their seats to try and not get shot. At least you can take cover behind the seat in front of you. People who panic may be irrational, but they understand that an oversized, space-limited tin can in the sky doesn't have anywhere to run to.

If that guy at the front raises his PK, everyone on the plane is going to get the shit down. They're not going to run, because they can't. Won't help them if he misses by an inch, but they will.

[Triplebaconation]

There's no need for dumb subsonic or rubber bullets. Or dumber taser bullets.

A 9mm hole in an airliner isn't going to kill everyone on board or even be particularly noticeable - that's just Hollywood nonsense.

US Air Marshals carry pistols loaded with comfortably supersonic hollowpoints. Lethality is more important than not poking a hole in a plane.

Machine guns...

[Imperializt Russia]

There's no need for dumb subsonic or rubber bullets. Or dumber taser bullets.

A 9mm hole in an airliner isn't going to kill everyone on board or even be particularly noticeable - that's just Hollywood nonsense.

US Air Marshals carry pistols loaded with comfortably supersonic hollowpoints. Lethality is more important than not poking a hole in a plane.

Machine guns...

Well, this was the aftermath of what has been attributed by some to a failure of a "stressed rivet head" (which may or may not be analogous to a bullet hole in the fuselage near a key point), leading to a crack which then fails by design to a 10x10 inch "vent".
The explanation of the disaster following this theory is that when a blockage was formed in this "vent" (unfortunately, the air hostess who was thrown from the aircraft and killed) to caused a spike in pressure which tore the fuselage asunder.

Though agreed as valid, it was not the submitted conclusion of the disaster inquiry, which attributed to the disaster to failure at multiple points.


It should probably be noted that it's more likely that an air marshal would be firing along the axis of a gangway rather than into the fuselage because of the limited space of an aircraft. Though this would mean that a penetrating shot may tear a gash, rather than cleanly penetrate a hole.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

There's no need for dumb subsonic or rubber bullets. Or dumber taser bullets.

A 9mm hole in an airliner isn't going to kill everyone on board or even be particularly noticeable - that's just Hollywood nonsense.

US Air Marshals carry pistols loaded with comfortably supersonic hollowpoints. Lethality is more important than not poking a hole in a plane.

Machine guns...

AFAIK they use used Glaser Safety Slug or whatever which is basically some sort of "ratshot" with a frangible tip, basically a frangible bullet with tiny balls inside. Now they use .357 SIG HP

[Triplebaconation]

There's no need for dumb subsonic or rubber bullets. Or dumber taser bullets.

A 9mm hole in an airliner isn't going to kill everyone on board or even be particularly noticeable - that's just Hollywood nonsense.

US Air Marshals carry pistols loaded with comfortably supersonic hollowpoints. Lethality is more important than not poking a hole in a plane.

Machine guns...

Well, this was the aftermath of what has been attributed by some to a failure of a "stressed rivet head" (which may or may not be analogous to a bullet hole in the fuselage near a key point), leading to a crack which then fails by design to a 10x10 inch "vent".
The explanation of the disaster following this theory is that when a blockage was formed in this "vent" (unfortunately, the air hostess who was thrown from the aircraft and killed) to caused a spike in pressure which tore the fuselage asunder.

Though agreed as valid, it was not the submitted conclusion of the disaster inquiry, which attributed to the disaster to failure at multiple points.


It should probably be noted that it's more likely that an air marshal would be firing along the axis of a gangway rather than into the fuselage because of the limited space of an aircraft. Though this would mean that a penetrating shot may tear a gash, rather than cleanly penetrate a hole.

Well, no, it's not the same at all, because rivets join sections of the fuselage together. When they're stressed, they eventually cause cracks in the fuselage skin that rips whole sections off - it's not instantaneous.

There are any number of ways a bullet could down a plane. There's a small chance it could hit a control wire or a fuel tank. Neither is likely to be immediately catastrophic. A window could be shot out - fairly serious, but unlikely to cause a crash.

These unlikely scenarios have to be balanced against the need for instantaneous CNS kills when needed - such as when a hijacker has a bomb or something. Good luck with rubber bullets or even safety slugs.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

All front line troops receive extensive battlefield-oriented medical training. ~60 hours of courses + a combined (practical+theoretical) exam (approx. 2 weeks). 20 hours refresher + a combined exam every 2 years.

General
Assessment and evaluation of general incident scene safety.
Effective verbal and written reporting skills (Charting).
Routine medical equipment maintenance procedures.
Routine radio operating procedures.
Triage of patients in a mass casualty incident.
Emergency vehicle operation.
Airway&Breathing
Bag Valve Mask
Head-tilt chin lift
Jaw Thrust
Modified Chin Lift
Manual Obstruction Removal
Oxygen Therapy via Non-rebreather mask or Nasal cannula
Upper airway suctioning
Positive Pressure Ventilation via Bag Valve Mask
Oropharyngeal Airway
Nasopharyngeal airway
Cricoid pressure
Assessment
Manual blood pressure
Pharmacological Interventions
Unit dose auto-injectors for self or peer care (MARK I)
Oral Glucose (Under medical control)
Epinephrine Auto-Injector
Emergency Trauma Care
Manual cervical stabilization
Manual extremity stabilization
Eye irrigation
Long spine board
Cervical Collar
Direct pressure
Hemorrhage control
Emergency moves for endangered patients
Medical/Cardiac Care
CPR
Automated external defibrillator (AED)
Assisted normal delivery

Sounds good?

[Spirit of Hope]

All front line troops receive extensive battlefield-oriented medical training. ~60 hours of courses + a combined (practical+theoretical) exam (approx. 2 weeks). 20 hours refresher + a combined exam every 2 years.

General
Assessment and evaluation of general incident scene safety.
Effective verbal and written reporting skills (Charting).
Routine medical equipment maintenance procedures.
Routine radio operating procedures.
Triage of patients in a mass casualty incident.
Emergency vehicle operation.
Airway&Breathing
Bag Valve Mask
Head-tilt chin lift
Jaw Thrust
Modified Chin Lift
Manual Obstruction Removal
Oxygen Therapy via Non-rebreather mask or Nasal cannula
Upper airway suctioning
Positive Pressure Ventilation via Bag Valve Mask
Oropharyngeal Airway
Nasopharyngeal airway
Cricoid pressure
Assessment
Manual blood pressure
Pharmacological Interventions
Unit dose auto-injectors for self or peer care (MARK I)
Oral Glucose (Under medical control)
Epinephrine Auto-Injector
Emergency Trauma Care
Manual cervical stabilization
Manual extremity stabilization
Eye irrigation
Long spine board
Cervical Collar
Direct pressure
Hemorrhage control
Emergency moves for endangered patients
Medical/Cardiac Care
CPR
Automated external defibrillator (AED)
Assisted normal delivery

Sounds good?

I do' see your average troop needing anywhere near that much training in combat first aid. A lot of that stuff gets into needing specialized equipment they won't have available or stuff that a trained and equipped medic will do way better. Your troops need the ability to triage, the ability to stop major bleeding (maybe apply a tourniquet), any maybe if you want to the minor stuff (object in eye, Heimlich maneuver, etc.)

The basic idea is that they can maybe keep someone from bleeding out before a medic gets there, if it needs any real amount of equipment then they don't need training in it because they won't have the equipment. Plus it wastes time and money on skills they won't need.

[Aethal]

Well, I basically just said "fuckit" and decided to work on something that isn't going to bite me in the arse. To be precise, something Crookfur may feel delight over. A lever-locking trap-door naval pistol for the 1830s & 1840s.


I leave it at a vote though, pinfire or needlegun; the decision is up to you blokes to make.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

All front line troops receive extensive battlefield-oriented medical training. ~60 hours of courses + a combined (practical+theoretical) exam (approx. 2 weeks). 20 hours refresher + a combined exam every 2 years.

General
Assessment and evaluation of general incident scene safety.
Effective verbal and written reporting skills (Charting).
Routine medical equipment maintenance procedures.
Routine radio operating procedures.
Triage of patients in a mass casualty incident.
Emergency vehicle operation.
Airway&Breathing
Bag Valve Mask
Head-tilt chin lift
Jaw Thrust
Modified Chin Lift
Manual Obstruction Removal
Oxygen Therapy via Non-rebreather mask or Nasal cannula
Upper airway suctioning
Positive Pressure Ventilation via Bag Valve Mask
Oropharyngeal Airway
Nasopharyngeal airway
Cricoid pressure
Assessment
Manual blood pressure
Pharmacological Interventions
Unit dose auto-injectors for self or peer care (MARK I)
Oral Glucose (Under medical control)
Epinephrine Auto-Injector
Emergency Trauma Care
Manual cervical stabilization
Manual extremity stabilization
Eye irrigation
Long spine board
Cervical Collar
Direct pressure
Hemorrhage control
Emergency moves for endangered patients
Medical/Cardiac Care
CPR
Automated external defibrillator (AED)
Assisted normal delivery

Sounds good?

I do' see your average troop needing anywhere near that much training in combat first aid. A lot of that stuff gets into needing specialized equipment they won't have available or stuff that a trained and equipped medic will do way better. Your troops need the ability to triage, the ability to stop major bleeding (maybe apply a tourniquet), any maybe if you want to the minor stuff (object in eye, Heimlich maneuver, etc.)

The basic idea is that they can maybe keep someone from bleeding out before a medic gets there, if it needs any real amount of equipment then they don't need training in it because they won't have the equipment. Plus it wastes time and money on skills they won't need.

Tbh looking at it in perspective, it seems like time (and money) well spent. Indeed, some skills covered involve using equipment that the regular GI won't be carrying on his person. But perhaps at least some of that equipment is available, even in 1 specimen at least in the vehicle if not in the dismounted squad. (or give them the stuff only when they're acting as medics) I reckon it should come in handy in situations with many injured soldiers, or when help isn't readily available, or in humanitarian actions (whether domestic or foreign) .

After all, you're training that grunt to kill for weeks or even months on end, you could at least give him a couple of weeks worth of medical training for a change. By no means is this supposed to replace more highly skilled medics ; rather, it allows the regular G.I. to be of more help (rather than a nuisance) to medics.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my civilian emergency services (police, fire)

[Crookfur]

Well, I basically just said "fuckit" and decided to work on something that isn't going to bite me in the arse. To be precise, something Crookfur may feel delight over. A lever-locking trap-door naval pistol for the 1830s & 1840s.


I leave it at a vote though, pinfire or needlegun; the decision is up to you blokes to make.

needlegun for great justice


the delight, i feels it.

[Crookfur]

Oh and how did i manage to miss this one:

T2mk5 in new clothes:

http://world.guns.ru/civil/usa/mpar-556-e.html

although the $950 price tag doesn't help the old T2mk5s are da cheapest evah! claim myself and others have made.

[Imperializt Russia]

Oh and how did i manage to miss this one:

T2mk5 in new clothes:

http://world.guns.ru/civil/usa/mpar-556-e.html

although the $950 price tag doesn't help the old T2mk5s are da cheapest evah! claim myself and others have made.

Methinks that kind of weapon sort of defeats the point of using the T2 as a base

[Spirit of Hope]

I do' see your average troop needing anywhere near that much training in combat first aid. A lot of that stuff gets into needing specialized equipment they won't have available or stuff that a trained and equipped medic will do way better. Your troops need the ability to triage, the ability to stop major bleeding (maybe apply a tourniquet), any maybe if you want to the minor stuff (object in eye, Heimlich maneuver, etc.)

The basic idea is that they can maybe keep someone from bleeding out before a medic gets there, if it needs any real amount of equipment then they don't need training in it because they won't have the equipment. Plus it wastes time and money on skills they won't need.

Tbh looking at it in perspective, it seems like time (and money) well spent. Indeed, some skills covered involve using equipment that the regular GI won't be carrying on his person. But perhaps at least some of that equipment is available, even in 1 specimen at least in the vehicle if not in the dismounted squad. (or give them the stuff only when they're acting as medics) I reckon it should come in handy in situations with many injured soldiers, or when help isn't readily available, or in humanitarian actions (whether domestic or foreign) .

After all, you're training that grunt to kill for weeks or even months on end, you could at least give him a couple of weeks worth of medical training for a change. By no means is this supposed to replace more highly skilled medics ; rather, it allows the regular G.I. to be of more help (rather than a nuisance) to medics.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my civilian emergency services (police, fire)

Most of a grunts training isn't about killing, its about forming him into a soldier who acts as part of a unit. That takes time to do right, after that you start moving into more advanced skills that they will actually use for killing. So you are just adding in training that they won't use.

Medics might carry a bag valve mask, that makes sense, but a back board, cervical collars, or oxygen tanks are right out of the question. Its stupid to have those in anything other than a dedicated ambulance. They just don't get used that much, cost money and take up space. I'm a life guard and most pools stop have one backboard for hundreds of people, because you will never need more than that. Anything more complicated isn't worth having around because you need a lot more dedicated training to make sure you use it right and in the right situations and you won't need it in the time it takes the properly trained people to arrive.

On the battlefield most injuries aren't going to come anywhere close to needing that equipment, and training, from your grunts. Medics should be at the very least around in sufficient numbers at the company level, if not the platoon level. Which means a fully trained and equipped medic should be around to actually do the important bits of first aid in a couple of minutes. Which means your grunt needs to be able to extend his "patients" life for only a short amount of time. For this he needs to know how to deal with large bleeding injuries, CPR and when he can't do anything. Thats a couple of hours with maybe a day of practical training, if you want to you can add the minor stuff in with the major stuff I just listed, not useful in a combat situation sure but useful for people to know in general. But that is at most 2 days of training and practical hands on training.

If you want to go above that level you start looking at weeks/months to properly train someone so they won't misdiagnose or improperly treat a patient, and thats just so you can properly stabilize someone and transport them to a doctor. Essentially what your EMT/Medic is already doing. Above that you need years of training to know how to fix people. My mom who is trained enough to act as an assistant for heart surgery/emergency room work/paramedic thinks the only equipment you need to readily have at the lower levels or response are large bandages, duct tape, and one way valve masks for CPR. Anything more than that gets way to situational and you start needing training to use all of it.

Now in a humanitarian situation your troops will be arriving after the most of those skills will be useful. Sure let the medics help in search and rescue, but the grunts will be far more useful moving supplies and keeping order. If they are caught in the situation as it starts you have bigger things to worry about but they still aren't going to be adding much to first aid by having those skills. A good medic can "train" someone to help them while they are helping, the important bit is knowing when to use a skill and that takes training that is wasted on a grunt.

Feel free to have basic first aid for police/fire fighters, but it should only be what is necessary in the first 5 minutes of care. Which is CPR, stopping bleeding and knowing when not to move someone. Firefighters should get trained on how to move someone, but hey they spend time actually training in emergency response not fighting a war.

[Aethal]

Anyone see this yet?

[Imperializt Russia]

Anyone see this yet?


(Image)

I think Aqi's posted about something at least similar before.
Are they squeezebore projectiles, or is it just a lot of projectiles they're going for with that?