NS infantry discussion thread. Mark II

[Nua Corda]

It's an unnecessary, questionable improvement to a perfectly serviceable platform, and a solution to a problem which doesn't exist at that.

No, I mean stupidly, unnecessarily expensive. HK shit is ALWAYS stupidly expensive. As Ivan Chesnokov calls them: "Dumb Nazi Heckler & Koch brick(s) of high price". Then again, government contracts ARE a license to steal...

Let me put this in perspective. I wanted to buy a scope mount for an airsoft MP5, in order to make it look like a gun from a movie I'm a huge fan of. So, I went looking for the specific mount I needed (because it's gotta be accurate to the screen, yo). I found it on HK's website and nowhere else. MSRP? $499. Four hundred and ninety nine United States dollars. For a God. Damn. Scope. Mount. I could buy three Mosin Nagants for the price of that scope mount. And that is why HK is shitty.

That was a joke.

My AimPoint Micro was $638.00 whereas my Primary Arms Micro Dot was $75.00. AimPoint is shitty.

My SGL 21-94 was $1,300.00 whereas my GP WASR-10/63 was $575.00. Arsenal is shitty.

Sometimes quality costs an extra dollar or two.

Apples and oranges.

[Spreewerke]

My AimPoint Micro was $638.00 whereas my Primary Arms Micro Dot was $75.00. AimPoint is shitty.

My SGL 21-94 was $1,300.00 whereas my GP WASR-10/63 was $575.00. Arsenal is shitty.

Sometimes quality costs an extra dollar or two.

Apples and oranges.

Not really.

You can get a $20.00 mount or a $500.00 mount from the factory. Which do you think is going to hold a repeatable zero after being detached and reattached?

[Yes Im Biop]

Apples and oranges.

Not really.

You can get a $20.00 mount or a $500.00 mount from the factory. Which do you think is going to hold a repeatable zero after being detached and reattached?

The 1445 dollar one and without spending half as much as the rifle to boot

[Nua Corda]

Apples and oranges.

Not really.

You can get a $20.00 mount or a $500.00 mount from the factory. Which do you think is going to hold a repeatable zero after being detached and reattached?

How about the one in the middle that is neither an expectedly shitty piece of shit, nor an overpriced piece of shit.

I later ended up getting a $200 mount for that MP5. It's not made of solid gold, but it's sturdy and it holds zero perfectly.

[Spreewerke]

Not really.

You can get a $20.00 mount or a $500.00 mount from the factory. Which do you think is going to hold a repeatable zero after being detached and reattached?

How about the one in the middle that is neither an expectedly shitty piece of shit, nor an overpriced piece of shit.

I later ended up getting a $200 mount for that MP5. It's not made of solid gold, but it's sturdy and it holds zero perfectly.

Your MP5 was also airsoft.

[Yes Im Biop]

... Corda you spend over 100 dollars on an airsoft gun? I bought my 22LR and a decent scope and mount for 300 total...

[Blackledge]

Hey Spree, you're an enthusiast of ComBloc weapons. If I haven't asked you already, what are your thoughts on Czechnology?

[Nua Corda]

How about the one in the middle that is neither an expectedly shitty piece of shit, nor an overpriced piece of shit.

I later ended up getting a $200 mount for that MP5. It's not made of solid gold, but it's sturdy and it holds zero perfectly.

Your MP5 was also airsoft.

Which you'd think would make it shittier and less likely to hold zero...

It's like you're trying to find reasons to disagree with me. I've noticed that lately, you've only been popping in to disagree or point out that someone is wrong. What's up with that?

... Corda you spend over 100 dollars on an airsoft gun? I bought my 22LR and a decent scope and mount for 300 total...

If you want one that isn't a piece of shit, you spend over $100.

[Yes Im Biop]

Had it for 3 years and probably 3000+ rounds and it's still nice so.

[Nua Corda]

Had it for 3 years and probably 3000+ rounds and it's still nice so.

The .22, or an airsoft?

Because one of those is not what I'm talking about.

[Yes Im Biop]

Had it for 3 years and probably 3000+ rounds and it's still nice so.

The .22, or an airsoft?

Because one of those is not what I'm talking about.

Both the air rifdle was probably 35 bucks

[Nua Corda]

The .22, or an airsoft?

Because one of those is not what I'm talking about.

Both the air rifdle was probably 35 bucks

Air rifle =/= airsoft

A 35 dollar airsoft gun would be a plastic spring gun that would be lucky to last a week.

[Mozria]

Bottom-paged.

If he has VX, why does he not have Sarin?
If you're going to attack with VX, what's the point of using blister agents in conjunction?

A condom-type device would probably be better to use than a standard penetrating type. Can't imagine it's a pleasant experience to insert or remove.

If VX is coming down, you might need to be suited for more than a week - why is the attack only a week? Is it not being followed up with anything else?

I'm not sure if he really knows what he is doing with chemical weapons. He may be wanting to disable my infantry (he may not realize that I have CBRN suits for everybody) and then hit me with VX if he has to retreat.

Well, the penetrative type is typically for women, much like a medical catheter (however, medical ones are unisex). I can't imagine using one myself.

Moving on- The attack is not "only for a week," I just plan on extracting most of the personnel by that time. I already have three battlegroups off the coast (one much closer than the others) that I am using to tear apart his navy at the moment, and I hope to get a transport ship into the dock that is only a few kilometers from the area to extract them.

[Spreewerke]

Hey Spree, you're an enthusiast of ComBloc weapons. If I haven't asked you already, what are your thoughts on Czechnology?

Of the few firearms I've been able to handle that were Czech:

• Their Mausers? Yes.
• Vz.52: fuck all of this rifle. Fuck it.
• Vz.58: only reason I haven't bought one is because... well, I'm really not sure. I just have too many AKs to really justify getting a proprietary 7.62x39mm.
• CZ-75: Yes.

I've heard great things about their other firearms, as well (CZ-82, CZ-83, Vz.61, etc.). The Czechs really make quality items, from my experience. The Vz.52 seemed like a solid-enough carbine, but it requires three to four hands to reassemble it because of its retarded return spring installation process. The Vz.58s are awesome, though. Very nice rifles overall. Only big complaint about them is the non-ambidextrous magazine release (but that is due to its BHO lever) and the fact the thumb/finger safety is on the right-hand side. It's easy to get with the index finger, like an M1 Carbine, but I feel like a thumb safety or a true ambidextrous safety would serve it better. So did some companies that made that very item aftermarket, apparently. Their Mausers are like you'd expect a Mauser to be: awesome. The CZ-75s and its variants are nice, but I still have a difficult time with their low-riding slide when it comes to racking it. I'm used to having much more to grab a hold of, so half the time I end up gripping the frame along with the slide when trying to chamber.

Which you'd think would make it shittier and less likely to hold zero...

It's like you're trying to find reasons to disagree with me. I've noticed that lately, you've only been popping in to disagree or point out that someone is wrong. What's up with that?

I was mostly trying to point out that a mount on an airsoft gun will never see the stress a mount on a fully-automatic 9mm submachine gun in a combat zone would be seeing. Do some budget options exist that get the job done? You betcha: the $20.00 UTG mount that has somehow held zero on my AK is proof of this. Will it be as rugged as a proper, steel side-mount? Probably not.

The fact HK's mount was $500.00 isn't because they're a shitty company and you suck and they hate you (okay, maybe a little is due to people circle-jerking over HK, so I'll give you that). The fact it's a $500.00 mount is because they care about its quality because they have a reputation to uphold. At the same time, the HK mounting system is a fair bit more complex than the AK's, even if it does operate in an identical fashion (friction mount on a "rail" of sorts). The AK's is literally a lever with a screw. Turn the lever, tighten the screw, impart friction by bending the bottom half of the mount upwards. The HK's works a little differently since it half-circles over the top of the receiver itself. Although the method used to apply friction is quite similar to what's on the AK mounts, just looking at both should give you an idea of why one might be more expensive than the other to produce. HK also has to split their production between military and commercial sales, so they're going to want to make sure they're still getting a profit. UTG? Not so much: if it doesn't work, "well, it was just $20.00 and probably made for airsoft, anyway." Same reason why Belorussian side-mounts for the AK can run $150+ even though they are built in the same way the UTGs are. However, those mounts are made of steel and are built to exacting milspec. standards for AK mounts. They aren't something that was just milled out of a block of aluminum and anodized like the UTGs. They were made out of a specific kind of steel, milled in a specific way, and designed in a specific ways as to meet the standards of a combat-reliable mount. I doubt HK goes the UTG route, either, and probably designs stuff to be milspec., which can increase cost, due to using more expensive/durable materials.

Was this $500.00 mount made in the United States or in Germany, by the way?

[Puzikas]

That sounds fairly decent, actually. If the Soviets had stuck with it, they probably would have come out with an extremely capable round.

It was a decent round, but the fact is that there are so many serviceable weapons in 7.62x54mmR and so many rounds it simply didn't make sense to drop it from a financial stand point, especially since 7.62x54mmR is the epitome of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Edit: I actually half take this back. In Russia 7.62x54mmR is the poster child for this. However, I would say the M2 and the .50BMG are the poster child for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" in the West.

The constant issues of 6x49 simply scared off high command, as did the prospect of having to replace some 50,000 SVDs and well over 200,000 PK Machine Guns currently in service (A price tag of roughly $150,700,000 just to replace those two on the low end), plus the cost of manufacturing new rounds , new machines...

Its a long and expensive process, money Russia just didn't have. Maybe if it was started in 1996 of might have took.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

7.62 Tok MP9 / TP9 instead of pistols y/y/y ?

Replacing them as your standard sidearm or redefining what your pistol is there to do?
Cost, giggle switch, weight etc.

Completely replacing pistols as a sidearm. W/ giggle switch. IIRC - and correct me if I'm wrong - some RL countries have historically used machine pistols as their service sidearm, so there shouldn't be any problem with that. A RL B+T MP9 is 1.4 kg unloaded. IMO bulk-wise it's not much larger than a full sized pistol:





Riflemen wouldn't have them, so the reasoning behind it is that the guys that will would kind of rely on them as their primary weapon for short-range encounters (e.g. guys wielding grenade or rocket launchers, etc.) , so they'd really use something more than a pistol to rely on that is, however, still compact. Whereas with riflemen weight-wise 1.4 kg (unloaded MP9) will get you at least 2 extra rifle mags. Folding stock, big mags, better accuracy, higher power are some of the advantages.

Perhaps for soldiers relying on a pistol-caliber weapon as their sole / primary weapon I can have smth more "full-fledged" / SMG/carabine-ish like a MP5 in 7.62 Tok (e.g. CQB, vehicle crews, etc.) . Yeah, I probably will. Because MP5 s are fucking cool.

[Blackledge]

Hey Spree, you're an enthusiast of ComBloc weapons. If I haven't asked you already, what are your thoughts on Czechnology?

Of the few firearms I've been able to handle that were Czech:

• Their Mausers? Yes.
• Vz.52: fuck all of this rifle. Fuck it.
• Vz.58: only reason I haven't bought one is because... well, I'm really not sure. I just have too many AKs to really justify getting a proprietary 7.62x39mm.
• CZ-75: Yes.

I've heard great things about their other firearms, as well (CZ-82, CZ-83, Vz.61, etc.). The Czechs really make quality items, from my experience. The Vz.52 seemed like a solid-enough carbine, but it requires three to four hands to reassemble it because of its retarded return spring installation process. The Vz.58s are awesome, though. Very nice rifles overall. Only big complaint about them is the non-ambidextrous magazine release (but that is due to its BHO lever) and the fact the thumb/finger safety is on the right-hand side. It's easy to get with the index finger, like an M1 Carbine, but I feel like a thumb safety or a true ambidextrous safety would serve it better. So did some companies that made that very item aftermarket, apparently. Their Mausers are like you'd expect a Mauser to be: awesome. The CZ-75s and its variants are nice, but I still have a difficult time with their low-riding slide when it comes to racking it. I'm used to having much more to grab a hold of, so half the time I end up gripping the frame along with the slide when trying to chamber.

Ok, thanks for the thoughts.

You don't happen to have an opinion of the CZ-805 Bren, eh?

[Spreewerke]

Ok, thanks for the thoughts.

You don't happen to have an opinion of the CZ-805 Bren, eh?

Other than, "it looks kind of silly," nope.

If they start making semi-automatic variants for the civilian market, you'll probably start reading a fair bit more about them.

[United states of brazilian nations]

... Corda you spend over 100 dollars on an airsoft gun? I bought my 22LR and a decent scope and mount for 300 total...

airsoft is THAT cheap in the US?

...

hold on, moving to the US

[Fordorsia]

... Corda you spend over 100 dollars on an airsoft gun? I bought my 22LR and a decent scope and mount for 300 total...

airsoft is THAT cheap in the US?

...

hold on, moving to the US

They can be even cheaper. Problem is, they're crap.

[Imperializt Russia]

... Corda you spend over 100 dollars on an airsoft gun? I bought my 22LR and a decent scope and mount for 300 total...

airsoft is THAT cheap in the US?

...

hold on, moving to the US

No, he spent $300 on a .22LR bolt-action live-fire rifle and a scope and mount
You can buy Mosins for a Franklin apiece.

Airsoft is generally expensive. My one foray into Airsoft was a two-tone crappy plastic AEG G36-style thing. With low-capacity magazines (that you could at least clip together) and a mock suppressor that greatly improved its accuracy.

It cost me fifty English pounds.

[Aqizithiuda]

So,

What are the upper limits of barrel twist rates? Searching google has, thus far, succeeded only in telling me that such a limit does indeed exist, and that bullets over a certain w:l ratio are probably too long for effective stabilization.

---

No, I'm staying due to its velocity it gave a round that had no business being an AM round the ability to be and AM round

Ah, that makes more sense.

That sounds fairly decent, actually. If the Soviets had stuck with it, they probably would have come out with an extremely capable round.

According to my understanding, the fastest twist rate currently in use is 160mm/1-in-6.3 (the MP7). However, apparently the larger the bullet diameter, the looser the twist needs to be. For instance, a 7.62mm bullet might be torn about by gyroscopic forces if fired from a 1-in-7 twist barrel, or at least have a badly affected flight path.

[Aqizithiuda]

airsoft is THAT cheap in the US?

...

hold on, moving to the US

No, he spent $300 on a .22LR bolt-action live-fire rifle and a scope and mount
You can buy Mosins for a Franklin apiece.

Airsoft is generally expensive. My one foray into Airsoft was a two-tone crappy plastic AEG G36-style thing. With low-capacity magazines (that you could at least clip together) and a mock suppressor that greatly improved its accuracy.

It cost me fifty English pounds.

My heart bleeds for those of you legally allowed to spend money on airsoft gear .

[Black Hand]

airsoft is THAT cheap in the US?

...

hold on, moving to the US

No, he spent $300 on a .22LR bolt-action live-fire rifle and a scope and mount
You can buy Mosins for a Franklin apiece.

Ruger 10/22 is sitting at $350 for the takedown version.

[Aqizithiuda]

Ever wondered why the Model 8 didn't become the first issued military semi-auto rifle? Now you know: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=g-su ... sQXksP-YhI