NS infantry discussion thread. Mark II

[Sediczja]

PLNS 4B1M 54/81

The Prátiwnotankij Laserem Nawidojny Strelac 4B1M 54/81 (Antitank Laser Guided Missile 4B1M 54/81) is a Sediczjan beam-riding SACLOS ATGM, introduced as an MCLOS weapon system in 1954 and updated to SACLOS in 1981. The weapon system can be carried, deployed and fired by a single soldier with minimal training. The system consists of two components: The launcher, which also doubles up as a man-portable carrying case, and the control system, which is comprised of a laser projector and a 3x optical sight.

Manufacturer: Nirsk state armoury, Ohntosk state armoury
Weight: 14kg (31lb)
Calibre: 6kg HEAT warhead
Effective range: 1300m

Cookie if you can guess what it's based on.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Well he didn't die, now did he?

EDIT: Also Trans is going to have a bone to pick with you after that cop comment.

He wouldn't have died even with a .50 BMG, that's completely beside the point

Actually, even hitting him in the finger with a wiffle ball bat and breaking it could kill him. Shock is a bitch. Regardless I would be more inclined to make a proper judgement if I knew the distance at which the shot was taken, whether the camera man was the intended target, and what the followup action was.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

PLNS 4B1M 54/61

(Image)
The Prátiwnotankij Laserem Nawidojny Strelac 4B1M 54/61 (Antitank Laser Guided Missile 4B1M 54/81) is a Sediczjan beam-riding SACLOS ATGM, introduced as an MCLOS weapon system in 1954 and updated to SACLOS in 1981. The weapon system can be carried, deployed and fired by a single soldier with minimal training. The system consists of two components: The launcher, which also doubles up as a man-portable carrying case, and the control system, which is comprised of a laser projector and a 2x optical sight.

Manufacturer: Nirsk state armoury, Ohntosk state armoury
Weight: 14kg (31lb)
Calibre: 6kg HEAT warhead
Effective range: 1300m

Cookie if you can guess what it's based on.

That man portable TOW thing that comes in the box.

[Aqizithiuda]

A strike to a joint, for example the knee, with the impact a less then lethal round needs to work, will break the joint. Which, at least in Canada, is equivalent to lethal force (Grievous bodily harm). My understanding is that it is the same in much of the Western world.

Centre of mass for less then lethal weapons is a must, because it means you will hit the area most able to take the impact without grievous bodily harm.

How hitting someone in the heart or lung can be less serious than a broken knee is beyond me. Aim below the rib cage. And don't use the weapon at a range where its' accuracy cannot ensure a safe hit.

Good idea. Let's rupture the spleen/liver/kidneys/bowels.

PLNS 4B1M 54/61

(Image)
The Prátiwnotankij Laserem Nawidojny Strelac 4B1M 54/61 (Antitank Laser Guided Missile 4B1M 54/81) is a Sediczjan beam-riding SACLOS ATGM, introduced as an MCLOS weapon system in 1954 and updated to SACLOS in 1981. The weapon system can be carried, deployed and fired by a single soldier with minimal training. The system consists of two components: The launcher, which also doubles up as a man-portable carrying case, and the control system, which is comprised of a laser projector and a 2x optical sight.

Manufacturer: Nirsk state armoury, Ohntosk state armoury
Weight: 14kg (31lb)
Calibre: 6kg HEAT warhead
Effective range: 1300m

Cookie if you can guess what it's based on.

The SS.10

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

PLNS 4B1M 54/61

(Image)
The Prátiwnotankij Laserem Nawidojny Strelac 4B1M 54/61 (Antitank Laser Guided Missile 4B1M 54/81) is a Sediczjan beam-riding SACLOS ATGM, introduced as an MCLOS weapon system in 1954 and updated to SACLOS in 1981. The weapon system can be carried, deployed and fired by a single soldier with minimal training. The system consists of two components: The launcher, which also doubles up as a man-portable carrying case, and the control system, which is comprised of a laser projector and a 2x optical sight.

Manufacturer: Nirsk state armoury, Ohntosk state armoury
Weight: 14kg (31lb)
Calibre: 6kg HEAT warhead
Effective range: 1300m

Cookie if you can guess what it's based on.

Something seems a bit off, you probably want something with more magnification than just 2x because at ranges where that's useful you probably don't even need any type of guidance.

[Dostanuot Loj]

A strike to a joint, for example the knee, with the impact a less then lethal round needs to work, will break the joint. Which, at least in Canada, is equivalent to lethal force (Grievous bodily harm). My understanding is that it is the same in much of the Western world.

Centre of mass for less then lethal weapons is a must, because it means you will hit the area most able to take the impact without grievous bodily harm.

How hitting someone in the heart or lung can be less serious than a broken knee is beyond me. Aim below the rib cage. And don't use the weapon at a range where its' accuracy cannot ensure a safe hit.

Because your rib cage can take ans disperse an impact better then the delicate joint that is your knee. A shot to the chest with less then lethal is going to not do the serious things you think unless you have such severe osteoporosis that people over the age of 100 have stronger bones then you.

Aiming for the soft gut area, where the impact has more room to go and less structure to spread out on is actually more lethal and causes more harm. If you don;t believe it, go get punched in the gut, then get punched in the chest, you'll notice the difference.

[Sediczja]

That man portable TOW thing that comes in the box.

Kinda.

The SS.10

Nope.

Something seems a bit off, you probably want something with more magnification than just 2x because at ranges where that's useful you probably don't even need any type of guidance.

Seen.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

How hitting someone in the heart or lung can be less serious than a broken knee is beyond me. Aim below the rib cage. And don't use the weapon at a range where its' accuracy cannot ensure a safe hit.

Good idea. Let's rupture the spleen/liver/kidneys/bowels.

PLNS 4B1M 54/61

(Image)
The Prátiwnotankij Laserem Nawidojny Strelac 4B1M 54/61 (Antitank Laser Guided Missile 4B1M 54/81) is a Sediczjan beam-riding SACLOS ATGM, introduced as an MCLOS weapon system in 1954 and updated to SACLOS in 1981. The weapon system can be carried, deployed and fired by a single soldier with minimal training. The system consists of two components: The launcher, which also doubles up as a man-portable carrying case, and the control system, which is comprised of a laser projector and a 2x optical sight.

Manufacturer: Nirsk state armoury, Ohntosk state armoury
Weight: 14kg (31lb)
Calibre: 6kg HEAT warhead
Effective range: 1300m

Cookie if you can guess what it's based on.

The SS.10

That's better than risking cardiac arrest.

[Gallia-]

Good idea. Let's rupture the spleen/liver/kidneys/bowels.

The SS.10

That's better than risking cardiac arrest.

The 28th Amendment to the US Constitution is the "Shoot all the olds devouring our pensions" Amendment.

The 29th Amendment was passed because the 28th caused a thousand olds to die of cardiac arrest in their wheelchairs during the Provisional Pensioners Promenade on Washington.

[New Tsavon]

I'd like to present the M.1905/9K Luftschiff Karabiner

(Credit to Sen for the stock and a few other bits)

[Aqizithiuda]

Good idea. Let's rupture the spleen/liver/kidneys/bowels.

The SS.10

That's better than risking cardiac arrest.

I would rather a small chance of cardiac arrest/punctured lungs than a much larger chance of dying from massive internal hemorrhaging.

But that's just me being a pussy about not wanting to die in immense pain.

[Sediczja]

I'd like to present the M.1905/9K Luftschiff Karabiner

(Credit to Sen for the stock and a few other bits)

Smooth.

I should make some order of bolt-action rifle for Sediczja, but my current level of proficiency with Sketchup precludes me from making rifle stocks that don't look like complete arse.

[Aqizithiuda]

That man portable TOW thing that comes in the box.

Kinda.

The SS.10

Nope.

Something seems a bit off, you probably want something with more magnification than just 2x because at ranges where that's useful you probably don't even need any type of guidance.

Seen.

Damn! Thought I had that one in the bag.

[Sediczja]

Damn! Thought I had that one in the bag.

Heh. You're close in terms of time period and operation, and not too far off in terms of country of origin either :3

[Sevvania]

Aim below the rib cage. And don't use the weapon at a range where its' accuracy cannot ensure a safe hit.

If the police only fired their weapons, lethal or nonlethal, in perfect and ideal situations, I suspect they would rarely fire their weapons at all. I have no idea what their casualties would be like, though.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Good idea. Let's rupture the spleen/liver/kidneys/bowels.

The SS.10

That's better than risking cardiac arrest.

After researching more, in all honesty, it is a pretty unlikely event. Wikipedia is our savior as always:

Commotio cordis (Latin, "agitation of the heart") is an often lethal disruption of heart rhythm that occurs as a result of a blow to the area directly over the heart (the precordial region), at a critical time during the cycle of a heart beat causing cardiac arrest. It is a form of ventricular fibrillation (V-Fib), not mechanical damage to the heart muscle or surrounding organs, and not the result of heart disease. The fatality rate is about 65%.[1] It can sometimes, but not always, be reversed by defibrillation.[2]

The following factors influence the chance of commotio cordis:
Direction of impact over the precordium (precise area, angle of impact)
Total applied energy (area of impact versus energy, i.e., the kinetic energy of the projectile Ek=1/2mv^2)
Impact occurring within a specific 10–30-millisecond portion of the cardiac cycle. This period occurs in the ascending phase of the T wave, when the ventricular myocardium is repolarizing, moving from systole to diastole (relaxation).
The small window of vulnerability explains why it is a rare event. Considering that the total cardiac cycle has a duration of 1000 milliseconds (for a base cardiac frequency of 60 beats per minute), the probability of a mechanical trauma within the window of vulnerability is 1 to 3% only. That also explains why the heart becomes more vulnerable when it is physically strained by sports activities:
The increase in heart rate (exercise tachycardia) may double the probability above (e.g., with 120 beats per minute the cardiac cycle shortens to 500 milliseconds without fundamentally altering the window-of-vulnerability's size);
Relative exercise-induced hypoxia and acceleration of the excito-conductive system of the heart make it more susceptible to stretch-induced ventricular fibrillation.
The cellular mechanisms of commotio cordis are still poorly understood, but probably related to the activation of mechano-sensitive proteins, ion channels.
It is estimated that impact energies of at least 50 joules are required to cause cardiac arrest, when applied in the right time and spot of the precordium of an adult.[citation needed] Impacts of up to 130 joules have already been measured with hockey pucks and lacrosse balls, 450 joules in karate punches and 1028 joules in boxer Rocky Marciano's punch.[6] The 50-joule threshold, however, can be considerably lowered when the victim's heart is under ischemic conditions, such as in coronary artery insufficiency.[5]
There is also an upper limit of impact energy applied to the heart; too much energy will create structural damage to the heart muscle as well as causing electrical upset. This condition is referred to as contusio cordis (from Latin for bruising of the heart). On isolated guinea pig hearts, as little as 5 mJ was needed to induce release of creatine kinase, a marker for muscle cell damage.[7] Obviously one should take into account that this figure does not include the dissipation of energy through the chest wall, and is not scaled up for humans, but it is indicative that relatively small amounts of energy are required to reach the heart before physical damage is done.

Most cases are fatal. Automated external defibrillators have helped increase the survival rate to 35%.[2] Defibrillation must be started as soon as possible (within 3 minutes) for maximal benefit. Commotio cordis is the leading cause of fatalities in youth baseball in the US, with 2 to 3 deaths per year.[8] It has been recommended that "communities and school districts reexamine the need for accessible automatic defibrillators and cardiopulmonary resuscitation-trained coaches at organized sporting events for children."[9]

If you get hit by an FN303 projectile at the wrong time in the wrong place you have chances somewhat better than 50/50 of surviving. Fortunately, there's only a 10-30 ms window in a 1000 ms cycle for 60 BPM, but for 120 BPM you're looking at up to 2%-6% (double the above), and it is very likely someone participating in a riot has elevated heart rate.

I'm not sure this is the only mechanism that could cause cardiac arrest, perhaps there are others.

EDIT: Or any projectile retaining 50J of energy at impact for that matter - emphasis on the need of accuracy and proper training.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Aim below the rib cage. And don't use the weapon at a range where its' accuracy cannot ensure a safe hit.

If the police only fired their weapons, lethal or nonlethal, in perfect and ideal situations, I suspect they would rarely fire their weapons at all. I have no idea what their casualties would be like, though.

Here's an interesting bit on the FN303 they seem to praise it TBH.

In practice it seems to be too powerful for short ranges and too inaccurate for long ranges . . . but really, let's get over with it.

[Aqizithiuda]

If the police only fired their weapons, lethal or nonlethal, in perfect and ideal situations, I suspect they would rarely fire their weapons at all. I have no idea what their casualties would be like, though.

Here's an interesting bit on the FN303 they seem to praise it TBH.

In practice it seems to be too powerful for short ranges and too inaccurate for long ranges . . . but really, let's get over with it.

You make or hard when you advocate using less lethal weapons in ways that will increase their chance of killing someone and think that that's okay because at least you aren't giving them a heart attack.

[Imperializt Russia]

1.No. Not really. What surprises me is the stupidity of the cop who did it, or the shit accuracy of the weapon.

But really, a less lethal projectile to the eye doesn't mean autokill. It's not a bullet, you know.

2. The whole point behind a less lethal gun is that it doesn't do shit that would happen anyway with any sort of firearm. And as stated he shouldn't have shot him in the hand in the first place (or shot him at all, WTF is this, DPRK? )

Any sort of projectile entering your skull via eye socket has a very high (>90%) chance of killing you since your brain is literally right behind your eyes.

A less lethal gun is still a gun, it's just, well, less lethal obviously.

I'd check that figure if I were you. The frontal lobes aren't critical to survival.

[Spirit of Hope]

Any sort of projectile entering your skull via eye socket has a very high (>90%) chance of killing you since your brain is literally right behind your eyes.

A less lethal gun is still a gun, it's just, well, less lethal obviously.

I'd check that figure if I were you. The frontal lobes aren't critical to survival.

The problem is that it tends to cause bleeding in the skull, which is very bad very fast.

[Premislyd]

Any sort of projectile entering your skull via eye socket has a very high (>90%) chance of killing you since your brain is literally right behind your eyes.

A less lethal gun is still a gun, it's just, well, less lethal obviously.

I'd check that figure if I were you. The frontal lobes aren't critical to survival.

While not critical, cranial hemorrhaging isn't very good.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

So I run, hide, and tear myself up.
Start again with a brand new name.

[Imperializt Russia]

A strike to a joint, for example the knee, with the impact a less then lethal round needs to work, will break the joint. Which, at least in Canada, is equivalent to lethal force (Grievous bodily harm). My understanding is that it is the same in much of the Western world.

Centre of mass for less then lethal weapons is a must, because it means you will hit the area most able to take the impact without grievous bodily harm.

How hitting someone in the heart or lung can be less serious than a broken knee is beyond me. Aim below the rib cage. And don't use the weapon at a range where its' accuracy cannot ensure a safe hit.

The heart and lungs are defended by the ribcage. The ribcage is there to absorb impacts. Impacts such as less lethal ammunition.

Below the ribcage, you have no protection but tour fat and your organs. In other words, none.

[Imperializt Russia]

Do you train your grunts in ambidextrously firing their rifles? I keep on hearing about it and realize its' benefits (firing around corners on your dominant side, if losing dexterity in one b/c of injury or whatever, etc) but is it something that's really mastered and used in actual combat? It just sounds like a hard thing to pull of consistently, that's all.

This struck me while I was contemplating chest-mounted knife sheaths (pic related)

(Image)

for my grunts, and seeing how that setup could prove uncomfortable (rifle stock sits on knife instead of shoulder), I was going to make right-handed grunts place the knife on the left side of their torso and vice versa. But it would still get in the way for this ambidextrous firing I'm hearing about.

I don't think it's going to be of that much use.

shot in the eye and died

You can't be serious.

You're genuinely surprised by this?

RTL cameraman got shot with one in the finger, breaking it.

Hate to break it to you, but this is going to happen with any sort of firearm.

You can shoot yourself in the eye with a recurve bow and completely not kill yourself .

[Triplebaconation]

Any sort of projectile entering your skull via eye socket has a very high (>90%) chance of killing you since your brain is literally right behind your eyes.

A less lethal gun is still a gun, it's just, well, less lethal obviously.

I'd check that figure if I were you. The frontal lobes aren't critical to survival.

This was proved in the first iteration of this thread.