Main Military Weapon of Your Country: Part 12

[Aqizithiuda]

How'd you come up with the numbers?
bullet should be seated a little bit more, and probably be a little bit longer
case should be tapered
there's an excessive selection of bullets, and some aren't modeled to be perfectly accurate, and some aren't really feasible

well, actually most of the numbers (except measurements in mm) were estimated, some through math formulas, other through ballistics calculators, others by guess as i can't seem to find something to calculate it.
yeah, most of them were made in a hurry and to be honest i know very litle, if nothing, about rounds. anyways, i'm here for that, to seek advice.

-snip-

well, as i said before to be honest i don't have any idea what some specialized cartriges look like (blame anti-gun culture and laws, sorry for mini-rant there) and i know very little about these things. as aformentioned, i'm here for that though, to get advice.
your posts are definitely noted and i will try to use that when making my next rounds, if i ever make them, this one was out of sheer boredom.
where did you find those photos? i google'd for almost hours trying to find good pictures of cutaways yet failed, now you come up with a whole bunch of 'em...
tomorrow i will be uploading my nation's first standard issue rifle ever, hope it doesn't have as many flaws.
well, it's almost a copy of the mosin nagant so it'd be hard to go wrong with that.

Link. Also, I'd come up with another name for "Anti-Personnel", since it has the same abbreviation as "Armour Piercing".

---

Inspired by your efforts.

Left to right they are: Ball, Tracer, Incendiary, Incendiary-Tracer, Match, Subsonic, Armour Piercing*.

*Technically speaking, my ball rounds are AP, containing a hardened steel penetrator, but they're the standard issue round, so they're simply listed as "Ball". The AP round has a tungsten core.

The 6x45mm CCTA:

(Image)

It should do around 940 m/s out of a 405mm barrel and should, at 1000 metres, penetrate in excess of 3mm of mild steel. It's for what I'm hoping will be come a sort of AK analogue for caseless ammunition.

Nice!
May I ask how you achieve such high velocities?

Large effective capacity (the total displacement for the round is 66 gr, so faster burning propellant can be used without increasing pressure drastically) and combustible case (adds extra energy to the process and burns more slowly than the powder, giving a flattish pressure curve).

[Black Hand]

good
but in this case it's a 350 gr 12mm projectile traveling at 900 m/s so that might be different.

I'm merely providing a real world example of such an occurrence, since real world experience is extremely lacking by most people in this thread.

Also, if it wasn't clear, I was agreeing with Tule....cept I'm not TOO sure about the .50 BMG to the protected chest claim. :/ Thats also not really my area of expertise.

I understand it was a real world example, I'm glad he survived (my girlfriend's father is a retired sheriff, along with many other law enforcement Relatives I have an natural inclination to wish the best for law enforcement)\
Okay maybe not lethal, I'm just thinking from the standpoint of while it might not be lethal odds of the target surviving the firefight seem low, and he/she will likely be incapacitated, until they can be captured and given proper medical care, or disposed of if they offer resistance. (I can't think of an elegant way to say "execute a dying man who is attempting to fight back after you killed the rest of his unit"
also I'm using 350gr steel core TMJ as standard for that round, granted it's a short range round, I have knowledge of 9.3X64 Armour piercing but not 6.5X64 I have no clue as to it's terminal effects either.

[Aqizithiuda]

I'm merely providing a real world example of such an occurrence, since real world experience is extremely lacking by most people in this thread.

Also, if it wasn't clear, I was agreeing with Tule....cept I'm not TOO sure about the .50 BMG to the protected chest claim. :/ Thats also not really my area of expertise.

I understand i was a real world example, I'm glad he survived (my girlfriend's father is a retired sheriff, along with many other law enforcement Relatives I have an natural inclination to wish the best for law enforcement)\
Okay, i'm just thinking from the standpoint of while it might not be lethal odds of the target surviving the firefight seem low, and he/she will likely be incapacitated
also I'm using 350gr steel core TMJ as standard for that round, granted it's a short range round, I have knowledge of 9.3X64 Armour piercing but not 6.5X64 I have no clue as to it's terminal effects either.

It's probably survivable, provided the chest plate survives the hit. It should probably penetrate Level IV armour at close range (maybe 100-200 metres).

[Black Hand]

I understand i was a real world example, I'm glad he survived (my girlfriend's father is a retired sheriff, along with many other law enforcement Relatives I have an natural inclination to wish the best for law enforcement)\
Okay, i'm just thinking from the standpoint of while it might not be lethal odds of the target surviving the firefight seem low, and he/she will likely be incapacitated
also I'm using 350gr steel core TMJ as standard for that round, granted it's a short range round, I have knowledge of 9.3X64 Armour piercing but not 6.5X64 I have no clue as to it's terminal effects either.

It's probably survivable, provided the chest plate survives the hit. It should probably penetrate Level IV armour at close range (maybe 100-200 metres).

as Far as infantry armor goes, what can stop it?

[Aqizithiuda]

It's probably survivable, provided the chest plate survives the hit. It should probably penetrate Level IV armour at close range (maybe 100-200 metres).

as Far as infantry armor goes, what can stop it?

Dragon Scale

More seriously, probably a high hardness steel/ceramic composite with some sort of sheer thickening fluid doped soft body armour made from boron nitride nanotubes. You could probably also throw in some titanium aluminide plates that are made from alternating layers of titanium and aluminium foil and then subjected to heat and pressure to form said plate, if you wanted.

[Yes Im Biop]

good
but in this case it's a 350 gr 12mm projectile traveling at 900 m/s so that might be different.

I'm merely providing a real world example of such an occurrence, since real world experience is extremely lacking by most people in this thread.

Also, if it wasn't clear, I was agreeing with Tule....cept I'm not TOO sure about the .50 BMG to the protected chest claim. :/ Thats also not really my area of expertise.

I've been hit in the chest by a .22 that bounced off a steel plate. Hurt and scared the shit outta me but it bounced off after 3 deflections (The ground, the steel and ground again)

[Yes Im Biop]

as Far as infantry armor goes, what can stop it?

Dragon Scale

More seriously, probably a high hardness steel/ceramic composite with some sort of sheer thickening fluid doped soft body armour made from boron nitride nanotubes. You could probably also throw in some titanium aluminide plates that are made from alternating layers of titanium and aluminium foil and then subjected to heat and pressure to form said plate, if you wanted.

Hey. I have already stated they can't stop anything more than a .22 Magnum.

[Aqizithiuda]

Dragon Scale

More seriously, probably a high hardness steel/ceramic composite with some sort of sheer thickening fluid doped soft body armour made from boron nitride nanotubes. You could probably also throw in some titanium aluminide plates that are made from alternating layers of titanium and aluminium foil and then subjected to heat and pressure to form said plate, if you wanted.

Hey. I have already stated they can't stop anything more than a .22 Magnum.

What can't stop a .22 WMR?

[Black Hand]

as Far as infantry armor goes, what can stop it?

Dragon Scale

More seriously, probably a high hardness steel/ceramic composite with some sort of sheer thickening fluid doped soft body armour made from boron nitride nanotubes. You could probably also throw in some titanium aluminide plates that are made from alternating layers of titanium and aluminium foil and then subjected to heat and pressure to form said plate, if you wanted.

Titanium aluminide? I'll look into it sounds interesting, Anyways so you''re essentially saying nothing out there today. But theoretically soon, it could be, What about a purpose built AP round. I'm thinking a steel base with a Plastic shell containing a Tungsten carbide dart, not a sabot but the Projectile is plastic in order to maintain the same ballistic coefficent

[Yes Im Biop]

Hey. I have already stated they can't stop anything more than a .22 Magnum.

What can't stop a .22 WMR?

Dragon scale. It's more for...Ya know what? I'm to tired for this level of thinking.

[Puzikas]

What can't stop a .22 WMR?

Dragon scale. It's more for...Ya know what? I'm to tired for this level of thinking.

He means the actual armor, not your FanT skin.

[Yes Im Biop]

Dragon scale. It's more for...Ya know what? I'm to tired for this level of thinking.

He means the actual armor, not your FanT skin.

Alter... And that's Dragonskin. Not Scale unless I'm really out of it

[Aqizithiuda]

He means the actual armor, not your FanT skin.

Alter... And that's Dragonskin. Not Scale unless I'm really out of it

Whoops, my bad. I got the name wrong.

[Yes Im Biop]

Alter... And that's Dragonskin. Not Scale unless I'm really out of it

Whoops, my bad. I got the name wrong.

IM NOT CRAZY!... AT any rate I figured, or rather remembered you guys disapproved of DS due to their choice of glue, why not just sew plate pads together with Kevlar

[Aqizithiuda]

Whoops, my bad. I got the name wrong.

IM NOT CRAZY!... AT any rate I figured, or rather remembered you guys disapproved of DS due to their choice of glue, why not just sew plate pads together with Kevlar

Because cermaics don't like having holes in them for the thread.

Plus, there's still the increase in weight.

[Imperializt Russia]

If you have a nuclear industry, DU might actually be cheaper than tungsten.

While that's true, dU is supposedly pretty ineffective for small arms rounds.

As a general-issue cartridge and especially a machine gun cartridge? Yes.
It's actually highly effective.

Danton provided, late last thread, an example of a (I think) 7.62x51mm DU cartridge. The goal was to give the AM capability a significantly heavier rifle would have necessitated.

I had underestimated its pyrophoric properties in a small arms cartridge, which Danton enlightened me to, though I was pretty correct that it wouldn't be worthwhile as general issue.

Tungsten is drastically more expensive than high hardness steel - not even relative to how much better it is than steel. If you have a nuclear industry, DU might actually be cheaper than tungsten.

If you're using this in a GPMG, a weapon which may be expected to go through hundreds of rounds an hour, definitely high hardness steel. No exotic materials. Literally pissing money.

well, DU is something i tend to avoid when it comes to small arms. lead is more dense than steel so it'd better for the core anyways. i guess i will make one with a steel tip for GPMGs and a tungsten cabide core and tip for sniper rifle use (light anti-material to some extent). interesting thing is that it started as a boredom drawning at school, i had measured only the caliber and drew the round. in the end, i had a cartridge where all measures, except the vertical ones, were dividable by 5, and for the horizontal ones i got 8mm for the round and 16mm for the base. i calculated case capacity and it is around 9.5 cubic centimeters (cm3).when i took a better look though, that is more than a freaking .338 LM.

Lead is denser and heavier than steel, yes, but it's notoriously not-hard, which compromises its armour-piercing capabilities. In fact, lead-cored rounds will typically just "squash" up against a hard target. Steel-core rounds have been used for armour-piercing rounds since two centuries ago.

Tungsten is 80 times as expensive as hardened steel.

12.7x99mm SLAP and SLAPT (M903, M962) use subcalibre tungsten penetrators. FAS is quoting around $7.50 a round, but that's likely from several years ago so it'd be more like $10 today. There'd be a lot more ammunition fired from a GPMG though, even if you were to feel that wasn't detrimentally expensive.

They're also saying 7.62x51mm SLAP was abandoned when the venture didn't look promising enough, amongst reliability problems.

If you were to squeeze enough extra performance out of it to justify use for special missions, you could just issue small manportable launchers instead. It's not like you'd need a big rocket if it's not going to be protected against your super-GPMG-rounds.

Isn't SLAP replaced by Raufoss rounds though?

No, SLAP is purely for armour penetration. Raufoss, as well as a penetrator, has explosive and incendiary components for destroying materiel like computers, weapon systems and sensors. And because they didn't think they could legitimise DU for a .50 infantry weapon.

WIth a small fast razor sharp bullet you have to hit ether the Aorta, or the brain, And even then I'm not sure those would guarantee an instant kill

Because bottom paged.

Unrelated note, I read that Silver Dart rounds are self sharping, What does that mean?

Self-sharpening is a supposed "mechanic" of depleted uranium when used as a penetrator material. Because of some property of the metal that I do not know the reasoning of, DU penetrators will abrade as they penetrate, almost like using a stanley knife to sharpen a pencil.
Tungsten penetrators, by contrast, are claimed to mushroom as they penetrate, reducing their penetration depth.

I'm unsure as to whether either mechanic is actually true, because I'm pretty sure someone has said they aren't.

so, any thoughts about this round?

http://www.deviantart.com/art/8x55mm-USBN-397055007

I personally think it ended up being too big, too heavy-recoiling, and maybe even a little too powerful for a GPMG. yes, you can never have enough power, but in this case it comes at the cost of higher recoil and pressure.

I think the large diameter might make the cartridge far too heavy-power.
Because of the sheer volume such a round will have, you're probably looking at large magnum cartridges in terms of power here. It's much more heavily bottlenecked than .338LM - you're claiming about 28% extra case capacity.

[Czechovelkov]

For my CCTA i'll use a resinated molded fibre composite with an integral energetic component, which seems to offer the best combustability. Perhaps I shall mix it with some nitro glycerin fibres to increase combustability. Y/N?

Don't know what to do with the internal support structure, I'll have polymer non-combustable endcaps.

What should I do with propellant?

Repost because :ignored:

Aquizithiuda knows about CCTA, but no help :'(

[Aqizithiuda]

How critical is receiver width in a weapon? I can adapt the caseless MG concept I found to work with mags, but the receiver will still need to be wide in order to facilitate the horizontal feeding of the ammunition.

For my CCTA i'll use a resinated molded fibre composite with an integral energetic component, which seems to offer the best combustability. Perhaps I shall mix it with some nitro glycerin fibres to increase combustability. Y/N?

Don't know what to do with the internal support structure, I'll have polymer non-combustable endcaps.

What should I do with propellant?

Repost because :ignored:

Aquizithiuda knows about CCTA, but no help :'(

You obviously missed my post, like you do with well over half of them.

[Fordorsia]

40 pages already? All hope is gone.

[Ea90]

As a general-issue cartridge and especially a machine gun cartridge? Yes.
It's actually highly effective.

Danton provided, late last thread, an example of a (I think) 7.62x51mm DU cartridge. The goal was to give the AM capability a significantly heavier rifle would have necessitated.

I had underestimated its pyrophoric properties in a small arms cartridge, which Danton enlightened me to, though I was pretty correct that it wouldn't be worthwhile as general issue.

How interesting.
I had no idea.

[Fischermann]

Any decent guesses on how a 12X64 round would perform against Armor? Assuming a Solid Steel core TMJ, 350 Gr projectile? main use being within 250 meters as a Urban combat weapon.

You want this:



Provided it's 13x64.

[Yes Im Biop]

IM NOT CRAZY!... AT any rate I figured, or rather remembered you guys disapproved of DS due to their choice of glue, why not just sew plate pads together with Kevlar

Because cermaics don't like having holes in them for the thread.

Plus, there's still the increase in weight.

I thought DS was the Kevlar with the micro ceramic plates sandwiched between the 2 layers....

[Czechovelkov]

Linearting the KZ-1 = impossible

Will just lineart a whole new gun

[United states of brazilian nations]

-snip-

Link. Also, I'd come up with another name for "Anti-Personnel", since it has the same abbreviation as "Armour Piercing".

---

Inspired by your efforts.

Left to right they are: Ball, Tracer, Incendiary, Incendiary-Tracer, Match, Subsonic, Armour Piercing*.

*Technically speaking, my ball rounds are AP, containing a hardened steel penetrator, but they're the standard issue round, so they're simply listed as "Ball". The AP round has a tungsten core.

those designs look great. and to be frank when i started to calculate the stats for my round i already realized that was a bad idea, specially for a GPMG. anyways, i wanted to see how close i had got. i guess i missed my goal by some counties.
anyways, almost finishing that mosin-nagant copy thing. will be uploading it ASAP.

[Purpelia]

Speaking of design...