Main Military Weapon of Your Country: Part 12

[Risen Britannia]

Which round do you use for the PDW you've been showing us? Actually, is there somewhere that I could read the stats for it?

Sort of relevant, but here's Puzikas's analysis of 5.7x28. Interesting read if you've got some time on your hands.

I will start reading that at some point however I didn't pick the 5.7mm out of the blue, I did read what little JANES had on it. Basically if you use 5.56 NATO don't bother with a PDW (SMG) and just use a compact carbine. However I don't use the 5.56 as my 'nation' decided to ignore NATO and went the .280 rout so I went for what it said was second best.

[United states of brazilian nations]

anyone knows a good metal for AP rounds? i mean, i'm designing a GPMG round, and one of the versions will be AP, however i don't want to use Depleted Uranium. i'm using tungsten carbide for the core of this version instead of lead, i dunno if it is good for penetrators as well.

[Imperializt Russia]

anyone knows a good metal for AP rounds? i mean, i'm designing a GPMG round, and one of the versions will be AP, however i don't want to use Depleted Uranium. i'm using tungsten carbide for the core of this version instead of lead, i dunno if it is good for penetrators as well.

Tungsten is drastically more expensive than high hardness steel - not even relative to how much better it is than steel. If you have a nuclear industry, DU might actually be cheaper than tungsten.

If you're using this in a GPMG, a weapon which may be expected to go through hundreds of rounds an hour, definitely high hardness steel. No exotic materials. Literally pissing money.

[Puzikas]

Sort of relevant, but here's Puzikas's analysis of 5.7x28. Interesting read if you've got some time on your hands.

I will start reading that at some point however I didn't pick the 5.7mm out of the blue, I did read what little JANES had on it. Basically if you use 5.56 NATO don't bother with a PDW (SMG) and just use a compact carbine. However I don't use the 5.56 as my 'nation' decided to ignore NATO and went the .280 rout so I went for what it said was second best.

I'm actually kind of sad you didn't read it, I do these things frequently enough I assumed all longtime MMWers had read them

/egostroke

[Risen Britannia]

I will start reading that at some point however I didn't pick the 5.7mm out of the blue, I did read what little JANES had on it. Basically if you use 5.56 NATO don't bother with a PDW (SMG) and just use a compact carbine. However I don't use the 5.56 as my 'nation' decided to ignore NATO and went the .280 rout so I went for what it said was second best.

I'm actually kind of sad you didn't read it, I do these things frequently enough I assumed all longtime MMWers had read them

/egostroke

I said I would read it, just not at 12:30

[Ea90]

If you have a nuclear industry, DU might actually be cheaper than tungsten.

While that's true, dU is supposedly pretty ineffective for small arms rounds.

[United states of brazilian nations]

anyone knows a good metal for AP rounds? i mean, i'm designing a GPMG round, and one of the versions will be AP, however i don't want to use Depleted Uranium. i'm using tungsten carbide for the core of this version instead of lead, i dunno if it is good for penetrators as well.

Tungsten is drastically more expensive than high hardness steel - not even relative to how much better it is than steel. If you have a nuclear industry, DU might actually be cheaper than tungsten.

If you're using this in a GPMG, a weapon which may be expected to go through hundreds of rounds an hour, definitely high hardness steel. No exotic materials. Literally pissing money.

well, DU is something i tend to avoid when it comes to small arms. lead is more dense than steel so it'd better for the core anyways. i guess i will make one with a steel tip for GPMGs and a tungsten cabide core and tip for sniper rifle use (light anti-material to some extent). interesting thing is that it started as a boredom drawning at school, i had measured only the caliber and drew the round. in the end, i had a cartridge where all measures, except the vertical ones, were dividable by 5, and for the horizontal ones i got 8mm for the round and 16mm for the base. i calculated case capacity and it is around 9.5 cubic centimeters (cm3).when i took a better look though, that is more than a freaking .338 LM.

[Aqizithiuda]

Tungsten is drastically more expensive than high hardness steel - not even relative to how much better it is than steel. If you have a nuclear industry, DU might actually be cheaper than tungsten.

If you're using this in a GPMG, a weapon which may be expected to go through hundreds of rounds an hour, definitely high hardness steel. No exotic materials. Literally pissing money.

well, DU is something i tend to avoid when it comes to small arms. lead is more dense than steel so it'd better for the core anyways. i guess i will make one with a steel tip for GPMGs and a tungsten cabide core and tip for sniper rifle use (light anti-material to some extent). interesting thing is that it started as a boredom drawning at school, i had measured only the caliber and drew the round. in the end, i had a cartridge where all measures, except the vertical ones, were dividable by 5, and for the horizontal ones i got 8mm for the round and 16mm for the base. i calculated case capacity and it is around 9.5 cubic centimeters (cm3).when i took a better look though, that is more than a freaking .338 LM.

You should look at the Russian 5.45mm ammunition and Chinese DBP10 loading of the 5.8x42mm. They're pretty effective rounds for penetrating armour, have good long range ballistics and good terminal performance.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

I'm actually kind of sad you didn't read it, I do these things frequently enough I assumed all longtime MMWers had read them

/egostroke

I read it!

Admittedly, I didn't like what you wrote about the 4.6x30mm HK, but fact > 4mm fapping and brand loyalty. It's actually one of the reasons I've been looking at 8.2mm projectiles for limited use.

Relevant
8.2x35mm

[Haydn]

The H-ACR. or Haydanian Adaptive Combat Rifle, is the production name for the custom built Haydanian version of the ACR combat rifle and is the primary weapon of the infantry of the Imperial Haydanian Army. It became the replacement for the AR92 rifle used by the Imperial Haydanian Army on 28 August 2013.

Type: Assualt rifle
Place of origin: United States/Haydn
Used by: Haydn
Wars: N/A
Weight: 6.8–8.8 lb
Length: 32.6 in (83 cm) (stock)
Cartridge: 7.59mm Haydanian cartridge

[Yes Im Biop]

anyone knows a good metal for AP rounds? i mean, i'm designing a GPMG round, and one of the versions will be AP, however i don't want to use Depleted Uranium. i'm using tungsten carbide for the core of this version instead of lead, i dunno if it is good for penetrators as well.

Tungsten is good, DU is better but yeah Tungsten is a good penetrator

[Bhelyant]

12.7x99mm SLAP and SLAPT (M903, M962) use subcalibre tungsten penetrators. FAS is quoting around $7.50 a round, but that's likely from several years ago so it'd be more like $10 today. There'd be a lot more ammunition fired from a GPMG though, even if you were to feel that wasn't detrimentally expensive.

They're also saying 7.62x51mm SLAP was abandoned when the venture didn't look promising enough, amongst reliability problems.

If you were to squeeze enough extra performance out of it to justify use for special missions, you could just issue small manportable launchers instead. It's not like you'd need a big rocket if it's not going to be protected against your super-GPMG-rounds.

[Yes Im Biop]

12.7x99mm SLAP and SLAPT (M903, M962) use subcalibre tungsten penetrators. FAS is quoting around $7.50 a round, but that's likely from several years ago so it'd be more like $10 today. There'd be a lot more ammunition fired from a GPMG though, even if you were to feel that wasn't detrimentally expensive.

They're also saying 7.62x51mm SLAP was abandoned when the venture didn't look promising enough, amongst reliability problems.

If you were to squeeze enough extra performance out of it to justify use for special missions, you could just issue small manportable launchers instead. It's not like you'd need a big rocket if it's not going to be protected against your super-GPMG-rounds.

Isn't SLAP replaced by Raufoss rounds though?

[Puzikas]

I'm actually kind of sad you didn't read it, I do these things frequently enough I assumed all longtime MMWers had read them

/egostroke

I read it!

Admittedly, I didn't like what you wrote about the 4.6x30mm HK, but fact > 4mm fapping and brand loyalty. It's actually one of the reasons I've been looking at 8.2mm projectiles for limited use.

Relevant
8.2x35mm

The truth hurts. I warned you when you first started down that avenue IIRC.

I gotta ask, why the obsession with Sabots as a mainline round? They offer poor terminal performance due to the velocity and tendency to simply go right through a target with little to no yaw.
Unless im thinking of someone else who uses Sabots only.

[Yes Im Biop]

I read it!

Admittedly, I didn't like what you wrote about the 4.6x30mm HK, but fact > 4mm fapping and brand loyalty. It's actually one of the reasons I've been looking at 8.2mm projectiles for limited use.

Relevant
8.2x35mm

The truth hurts. I warned you when you first started down that avenue IIRC.

I gotta ask, why the obsession with Sabots as a mainline round? They offer poor terminal performance due to the velocity and tendency to simply go right through a target with little to no yaw?
Unless im thinking of someone else who uses Sabots only.

His main concern is punching holes in armor I believe, Which is like mine but I use heavy fast bullets and explosive to do it

[Bhelyant]

Isn't SLAP replaced by Raufoss rounds though?

depends on what's available

It looks like there are some non-saboted 5.56 and 7.62 offerings with a tungsten core that haven't seen much use, they might be worth looking into

[Yes Im Biop]

Isn't SLAP replaced by Raufoss rounds though?

depends on what's available

It looks like there are some non-saboted 5.56 and 7.62 offerings with a tungsten core that haven't seen much use, they might be worth looking into

I would think on a 5.56 they would just replace all the lead with Tungsten. Not much to work with there really

[Black Hand]

Any decent guesses on how a 12X64 round would perform against Armor? Assuming a Solid Steel core TMJ, 350 Gr projectile? main use being within 250 meters as a Urban combat weapon.

[Yes Im Biop]

Any decent guesses on how a 12X64 round would perform against Armor? Assuming a Solid Steel core TMJ, 350 Gr projectile? main use being within 250 meters as a Urban combat weapon.

Against what? US Army combat armor? IF it didn't punch through it the gun under it would be down and out with broken ribs I'm guessing

[Black Hand]

Any decent guesses on how a 12X64 round would perform against Armor? Assuming a Solid Steel core TMJ, 350 Gr projectile? main use being within 250 meters as a Urban combat weapon.

Against what? US Army combat armor? IF it didn't punch through it the gun under it would be down and out with broken ribs I'm guessing

I'm thinking Level IV plates and I was thinking the same, even if it doesn't go through it should kill or at least heavily injure the target.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

The truth hurts. I warned you when you first started down that avenue IIRC.

It does, and you did (along with several other IIRC).

I gotta ask, why the obsession with Sabots as a mainline round? They offer poor terminal performance due to the velocity and tendency to simply go right through a target with little to no yaw?

Because I have an odd obsession with SCHV rounds?

As I see it, modern body armour has rendered terminal performance a secondary concern at best. Having 8mm VX filled hollow points for maximum terminal won't do a lick of good if I can't penetrate the armour.

Since I don't have the benefit of FanT super humans/creatures, I have to go the more conventional route of saboted micro-caliber hivel projectiles.

It just so happens, that 4mm rounds also give me exceptional ballistics and minimal recoil from cartridges ~1/4 - 1/3 smaller than everyone else's.

Perhaps I'm seeing things from the wrong viewpoint though...

[Aqizithiuda]

12.7x99mm SLAP and SLAPT (M903, M962) use subcalibre tungsten penetrators. FAS is quoting around $7.50 a round, but that's likely from several years ago so it'd be more like $10 today. There'd be a lot more ammunition fired from a GPMG though, even if you were to feel that wasn't detrimentally expensive.

They're also saying 7.62x51mm SLAP was abandoned when the venture didn't look promising enough, amongst reliability problems.

If you were to squeeze enough extra performance out of it to justify use for special missions, you could just issue small manportable launchers instead. It's not like you'd need a big rocket if it's not going to be protected against your super-GPMG-rounds.

Isn't SLAP replaced by Raufoss rounds though?

Nope. SLAP = uber penetration, raufoss = less penetration but explodes and sets things on fire.

I read it!

Admittedly, I didn't like what you wrote about the 4.6x30mm HK, but fact > 4mm fapping and brand loyalty. It's actually one of the reasons I've been looking at 8.2mm projectiles for limited use.

Relevant
8.2x35mm

The truth hurts. I warned you when you first started down that avenue IIRC.

I gotta ask, why the obsession with Sabots as a mainline round? They offer poor terminal performance due to the velocity and tendency to simply go right through a target with little to no yaw.
Unless im thinking of someone else who uses Sabots only.

I believe it's to get the best ballistics from the smallest round possible, with poor terminal ballistics being offset by a spoon tip.

Isn't SLAP replaced by Raufoss rounds though?

depends on what's available

It looks like there are some non-saboted 5.56 and 7.62 offerings with a tungsten core that haven't seen much use, they might be worth looking into

Like the M993/M995 and 7N24?

Any decent guesses on how a 12X64 round would perform against Armor? Assuming a Solid Steel core TMJ, 350 Gr projectile? main use being within 250 meters as a Urban combat weapon.

MV?

[Bhelyant]

Against what? US Army combat armor? IF it didn't punch through it the gun under it would be down and out with broken ribs I'm guessing

I'm thinking Level IV plates and I was thinking the same, even if it doesn't go through it should kill or at least heavily injure the target.

And if they're wearing trauma plates?

Like the M993/M995 and 7N24?

yes?

[Yes Im Biop]

Against what? US Army combat armor? IF it didn't punch through it the gun under it would be down and out with broken ribs I'm guessing

I'm thinking Level IV plates and I was thinking the same, even if it doesn't go through it should kill or at least heavily injure the target.

If they have Ceramic plates it would probably knock em on their ass.

[Yes Im Biop]

The truth hurts. I warned you when you first started down that avenue IIRC.

It does, and you did (along with several other IIRC).

I gotta ask, why the obsession with Sabots as a mainline round? They offer poor terminal performance due to the velocity and tendency to simply go right through a target with little to no yaw?

Because I have an odd obsession with SCHV rounds. As I see it, modern body armour has rendered terminal performance a secondary concern at best. I can use 8mm hollowpoints, and have the best terminal performance in the world, but it does me no good if the target is wearing body armour.

Perhaps I'm seeing things from the wrong viewpoint though...

WIth a small fast razor sharp bullet you have to hit ether the Aorta, or the brain, And even then I'm not sure those would guarantee an instant kill