Main Military Weapon of Your Country: Part 12

[Yes Im Biop]

Thats my job, after all.

Puzikas, I must inquire.

According to most sources I've read, fragmentation does more than leave many small wound channels, It literally shreds and detaches the surrounding flesh from the body.

"We suggest that the multiple fragments are likely to cut across many muscle bundles in two places and that the piece between cuts is then likely to be completely detached by the subsequent sudden stretch of the temporary cavitation"

What Biop Reads:
SO the difference is Being hit clean through with a 6foot fence post, or getting hit with a sledge with nails on it.

[Bezombia]

Fragmenting and Yawing will both fuck you up internally. Tumbling provides a much larger wound channel, meaning in an instance in which is does not strike a vital organ it will produce a very serious wound, moreso than a number of smaller wounds one might get from fragmenting. This also translates well to penetration of solid objects.

While fragmenting provides more of a chance to strike a vital organ (to be honest, the inside of a person is so compacted in terms of organ location hitting one is not hard, its hitting a vital one that is a golden rule), it also would leave a less-serious internal wound if it does not strike.

Its all depending on too many factors to go though but, in general, its better to have expanding and yawing than fragmenting.

Which, if I'm not incorrect in my brief and unfocused research in NATO cartridges, is why development of the 5.56x45 led to the removal of the steel tip, thus moving the center of gravity rearward, causing the rear of the bullet to come forward under deceleration, thus promoting tumbling in tissue?

My question is this. If that would theoretically increase wounding potential, what affect would it have upon penetration?

[Tule]

Puzikas, I must inquire.

According to most sources I've read, fragmentation does more than leave many small wound channels, It literally shreds and detaches the surrounding flesh from the body.

What Biop Reads:
SO the difference is Being hit clean through with a 6foot fence post, or getting hit with a sledge with nails on it.

What I read is more like the difference between being stabbed through the torso with a sharpened piece of rebar and being stabbed through the torso with a sharpened piece of rebar and then having a lit M80 inserted deep into the hole.

[Yes Im Biop]

What Biop Reads:
SO the difference is Being hit clean through with a 6foot fence post, or getting hit with a sledge with nails on it.

What I read is more like the difference between being stabbed through the torso with a sharpened piece of rebar and being stabbed through the torso with a sharpened piece of rebar and then having a lit M80 inserted deep into the hole.

I like mine better

[Unified Confederacy of Imeuta]

Quark disassembler cannon. Capable of dissolving all known forms of matter and antimatter. Extensive use in one location is unadvisable, due to potential to turn the local atmosphere into superheated plasma.

Standard emitters for personal use provide maximums of up to a recorded 37.1 Yottawatt yields, tactical orbital vehicles provide 10 to the 62nd Yottawatt yields, however, it is advised to power large emitters with a hyperelectric core to prevent rapid depletion of power reserves. Byproduct of operation is extremely high levels of theta radiation and minimal quantities of gluon plasma at temperatures approaching absolute hot.

[Bezombia]

A lot of stuff was wrong.
For one thing the barrel was a bit too short. The magazine was WAY too wide, and the action interfered with the grip on the bottom pic. The gas tube was very, VERY thin. Also, straight pistol grips are very bad. Finally, either you lack an ejection port or you lack a bolt carrier. Either of these things along will cause the rifle to fire a single shot and then basically blow up.

Alright, thank you for your help thus far.

I think I fixed everything:
http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... ca0bd2.png
http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... 80b4d5.png

-Lengthened the barrel.
-Expanded gas
-Gave a little room for the bolt to operate
-Fixed the magazine
-Added ejection port
-Fixed pistol grip?

-Barrel and gas tube are still way too thin.
-Pistol grip has been made worse. Try rotating the whole thing ten degrees counterclockwise, then smoothing it out.
-Length of pull on the folder is very short. LoP is the distance from the pistol grip to the rear of the stock.
-Action will still interfere with rifle stock. See that grey rectangle on the very rear? Get rid of it.
-Ejection port is far too small to eject 7.62x39 rounds.
-Ejection port is too far back to actually eject the cartridge
-Even if the bolt actually moved all the way back there, there isn't any room for it to do so.

A side note. Try reversing the direction of the diagonal line that makes up the bottom of the mag, so instead of going down it goes up.

[Black Hand]

CSR-C "diamondBack" (Combat Sniper Rifle-Compact)
Cartridge: 9X30 Caseless
Action: Bolt, Externally powered linear motor.
Length: 30"
Barrel length: 20"
Weight: 6Kg
Effective Range: 800m against Armored targets
Maximum range: 3000m
Projectile weight: 600 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 1650 m/s

Background: THe CSR-C Diamondback was developed as a Long range precision weapon, without sacrificing mobility in an urban environment. THE CSR-C Diamondback is deployed in Combat teams as a Sniper weapon, or as support for an AMR (AMR teams are three man, sniper, spotter, overwatch/pack mule)

RE-toast

[Bezombia]

Finally getting around to coloring this.

[Sevvania]

His identity is revealed!

[Puzikas]

Thats my job, after all.

Puzikas, I must inquire.

According to most sources I've read, fragmentation does more than leave many small wound channels, It literally shreds and detaches the surrounding flesh from the body.

"We suggest that the multiple fragments are likely to cut across many muscle bundles in two places and that the piece between cuts is then likely to be completely detached by the subsequent sudden stretch of the temporary cavitation"

Im familiar with this, and, oddly enough, Dr. Flacker.

Its not as reliable as that in real-world combat applications to start. While we have had similar findings in our tests in part, its not as regular as a yaw. Like I said, with as many factors as there are (Penetration, range, weight of projectile, velocity of projectile, size of projectile...) you need something more constant than fragmentation. No two ways about ti, fragmentation is a very nasty wound..up close. At longer ranges, however, the fragments occasionally
1. Fail to Fragment
2. Fail to cause supercavitation in the body
3.Fail to create a temp. Wound profile
4. Failure to penetrate sufficiently

Remember that ballistic gelatin is used as a stand in for human tissue, not including Bone. Hes talking about muscle here, not about the idea that as a projectile fragments in the body and suddenly severs entire strands of the human body.

At close range: Yes, fragmentation at close range is much more devastating than tumbling, but with so many factors in play, the constant will always beat the outlying factor. Both are good: I like the constant more.


And no, everyone is wrong. Its like getting stuck with a rod of steel that curls and expands as it moves though you, and one that breaks into smaller strands of steel and moves though you.

=

Which, if I'm not incorrect in my brief and unfocused research in NATO cartridges, is why development of the 5.56x45 led to the removal of the steel tip, thus moving the center of gravity rearward, causing the rear of the bullet to come forward under deceleration, thus promoting tumbling in tissue?

My question is this. If that would theoretically increase wounding potential, what affect would it have upon penetration?

As the bullet tumbles though you in such a manner, the volume that is making a wound profile expands when it tumbles. Say you are struck with a projectile that is 5.6mm in diameter and 22mm long. As it tumbles nose-to-ass, it lifts, making a larger profile. So your wound goes from 5.6mm in diameter up to 22mm, and continues as such.
Its best to just show you.


As for penetration, it does, but not as much as you might think, especially in hard targets.

(Image)
His identity is revealed!

Not me, unfortunate coincidence really

[Bezombia]

As the bullet tumbles though you in such a manner, the volume that is making a wound profile expands when it tumbles. Say you are struck with a projectile that is 5.6mm in diameter and 22mm long. As it tumbles nose-to-ass, it lifts, making a larger profile. So your wound goes from 5.6mm in diameter up to 22mm, and continues as such.
Its best to just show you.
(Image)

Jesus when you put it like that, it sounds very painful.
And now the weird testicle diagrams make more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[url]As for penetration, it does, but not as much as you might think, especially in hard targets.[/url]

All right, thanks I'll keep that in mind for the future. I'm not quite sure how, but I'd somehow got it into my head that a bullet designed to tumble would be akin to a hollow/soft point bullet in that regard.

[Sevvania]

(Image)
His identity is revealed!

Not me, unfortunate coincidence really

Exactly the sort of answer I would expect from former Spetsnaz operative.

[New Tsavon]

(Image)
His identity is revealed!

Goddammit Puzikas, why!

[Phoenix2012]

Do these look ok?
http://rdstuff.webs.com/apps/photos/pho ... =184320119
http://rdstuff.webs.com/apps/photos/pho ... =184320118
Fires 7.62NATO, 20 rd Mag, 23? in barrel, adjustable stock, sighted to 1500m, Safe, semi, 3round, full, 800-900 rounds/min, Short stroke, rotating bolt for now, Forward assist, rails on top, bottom, sides. What did I leave out?

Sorry, my scanner broke, and yes, I'm a old school guy that does everything by hand....

[Puzikas]

Not me, unfortunate coincidence really

Exactly the sort of answer I would expect from former Spetsnaz operative.

Pretty sure I've posted pictures of me before

[Bezombia]

Do these look ok?
http://rdstuff.webs.com/apps/photos/pho ... =184320119
http://rdstuff.webs.com/apps/photos/pho ... =184320118
Fires 7.62NATO, 20 rd Mag, 23? in barrel, adjustable stock, sighted to 1500m, Safe, semi, 3round, full, 800-900 rounds/min, Short stroke, rotating bolt for now, Forward assist, rails on top, bottom, sides. What did I leave out?

Sorry, my scanner broke, and yes, I'm a old school guy that does everything by hand....

Needs a bolt release.
Also, grip flares out at end. I've been told this is bad.

[Central Alkebulan]

Alright, thank you for your help thus far.

I think I fixed everything:
http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... ca0bd2.png
http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... 80b4d5.png

-Lengthened the barrel.
-Expanded gas
-Gave a little room for the bolt to operate
-Fixed the magazine
-Added ejection port
-Fixed pistol grip?

-Barrel and gas tube are still way too thin.
-Pistol grip has been made worse. Try rotating the whole thing ten degrees counterclockwise, then smoothing it out.
-Length of pull on the folder is very short. LoP is the distance from the pistol grip to the rear of the stock.
-Action will still interfere with rifle stock. See that grey rectangle on the very rear? Get rid of it.
-Ejection port is far too small to eject 7.62x39 rounds.
-Ejection port is too far back to actually eject the cartridge
-Even if the bolt actually moved all the way back there, there isn't any room for it to do so.

A side note. Try reversing the direction of the diagonal line that makes up the bottom of the mag, so instead of going down it goes up.

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... caf438.png

Alright.
-Made the barrel the width of the chamber (assuming that's what it needs to be).
-Made the gas tube a little wider, should I make it even wider?
-Removed the grey rectangle thing.
-Widened the ejection chamber, moved it forward.
-Made the folding stock the same length (more or less) as the wooden stock.
-Pistol grip fixed?

Do I need to move the magazine to be in line with the chamber?

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Hey, I have a quick question.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lead cored FMJ ball round will destabilize and fragment violently if it hits flesh at a high enough velocity.

Is this true?

[Hodori]

A lot of stuff was wrong.
For one thing the barrel was a bit too short. The magazine was WAY too wide, and the action interfered with the grip on the bottom pic. The gas tube was very, VERY thin. Also, straight pistol grips are very bad. Finally, either you lack an ejection port or you lack a bolt carrier. Either of these things along will cause the rifle to fire a single shot and then basically blow up.

Alright, thank you for your help thus far.

I think I fixed everything:
http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... ca0bd2.png
http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag7 ... 80b4d5.png

-Lengthened the barrel.
-Expanded gas
-Gave a little room for the bolt to operate
-Fixed the magazine
-Added ejection port
-Fixed pistol grip?

- The barrels are too thin. Make them thicker a few pixels.
- Make the gas tubes thicker.
- The ejection port looks to be too small. A general rule of thumb I use is the ejection port should be a little larger than a complete cartridge.
- The butt on the folding stock variant looks too small. A metric I've seen mentioned in earlier threads and am probably misremembering is the butt should be about as tall as the grip.
- The way the magazine and well are angled looks backwards. If I'm remembering correctly, the reason the bottom of magazines are angled is due to the taper of the cartridge. I believe this is also why high-capacity rifle magazines are generally curved; tapered cases play nicer in curved boxes than straight boxes.

oh gorrammit ninja'd by Beno of all people.

[Dominion of the Priceless Crown]

My idea for my bullets for my assult rifles and other decent caliber weapons is, lets make a 7.62mm (because of its size and power and payload capacity) HEAT like round but the HE is suspended very very hot plasma, though requires part if not all of the round to be made of a carbon fiber looking material(I'm not going to go into spicifics about it). It would glow which would add to the cool factor but a SPAT round would have the nearly the same effects as whatever the normal round size you make it out of,(tanks and stuff will have them to) but go through armor better and cause severe injury and pain to the target. When I say severe pain, it's in the lightest sense of the word. It would do What should happen in starwars when a light sabre hits, is the area around the wound boils and then bursts in a gory mess as all of your fluids in a about 5 inch radius boil and busts out of your body taking out every muscle ligament and artery in and around the wound and third to secound degree burns in the next 5 five inches around that. Also prevents prosthetic limbs because of severe nerv damage.

Also I want full credit if actually made and used.

[Tule]

Hey, I have a quick question.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lead ball round will destabilize and fragment violently if it hits flesh at a high enough velocity.

Is this true?

If it goes fast enough, and the bullet design is correct.

[Sevvania]

Hey, I have a quick question.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lead ball round will destabilize and fragment violently if it hits flesh at a high enough velocity.

Is this true?

Lead balls do terrible things to flesh. That's why they were outlawed for use in warfare by the Geneva and/or Hague Conventions, if memory serves.

[Alimeria-]

Back again from my intentional inactivity.

So I was wondering if you were not able to use plastics, would you still be able to create something that behaves like a plastic-tipped bullet? And what would be the best alternative?

And also if there wasn't a convention banning hollow points in the setting.

[Hodori]

Hey, I have a quick question.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lead ball round will destabilize and fragment violently if it hits flesh at a high enough velocity.

Is this true?

Lead balls do terrible things to flesh. That's why they were outlawed for use in warfare by the Geneva and/or Hague Conventions, if memory serves.

IIRC Hague Conventions governed munitions. And cursory research tells me the Hague Conventions banned expanding munitions and munitions designed solely to spread harmful gas.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

If it goes fast enough, and the bullet design is correct.

Nice.

---

Lead balls do terrible things to flesh. That's why they were outlawed for use in warfare by the Geneva and/or Hague Conventions, if memory serves.

Military style FMJ ball rounds?