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Main Military Weapon of Your Country: Part 12

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:44 am

Kouralia wrote:
Bezombia wrote:In Britain, the same basic trend happened. Bolt action Lee Enfield, fully automatic heavy FAL, fully automatic light SA80.

SLR was semi-only, except for the things that the SAS mucked about with, IIRC.


Indeed, as was the later M14s and (iirc) G3s. Which is what lead to the smaller calibers.

Problem: RoF too slow.
Solution: Full auto.

Problem: Full auto is uncontrollable.
Solution: Intermediate/small caliber ammunition.
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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:45 am

United Republics of Aralon wrote:
Bezombia wrote:I'm not so sure with the whole "AR gone in 10 years" thing.
How many times have they tried to replace it? How many times have they actually replaced it? And this is, keep in mind, originally planned to be a stopgap rifle until a new one could replace it.

No, I think it will be around for longer than that. Why? Because it takes a lot to replace a rifle.
The M1903/M1906 was replaced by the M1 because semi-automatic fire was a huge jump over bolt action. The M14 was replaced by the M1 because fully automatic fire was a huge jump over semi-automatic - however that failed, and the M16 replaced it bringing small calibers and controllable fully automatic fire.

In Britain, the same basic trend happened. Bolt action Lee Enfield, fully automatic heavy FAL, fully automatic light SA80.

Even in Russia the trend continues. The Mosin to the AK (full auto heavy) to the AK-74 (full auto light).

So for a new rifle to come about for any of the major nations, something big would have to happen - something as big as changing to fully automatic fire, or adopting intermediate cartridges. Russia almost got there with the AN-94 (extremely accurate burst fire) but the AN is very complicated and still really isn't seeing use. The Germans took a different route and likewise got very close with the G11 (extremely accurate burst fire and very lightweight caseless ammunition) but in addition to the complexity a whole mess of political issues, such as reunification, fucked up that idea and killed the program, leading to the G36.


And that kind of innovation isn't being seen in current military trials. Look at the Individual Carbine Competition - one of the requirements was that it fired 7.62x51 or 5.56x45, so no cartridge innovation. Also most of the entrants were basic rifles that were better than the AR but weren't really anything new. Whilst the entrants were certainly "new" rifles (such as the HK416, ACR, SCAR, etc.) the concepts behind them aren't new at all, with older rifles such as the AR-18 being very similar to IC Competition rifles.


To sum everything up, in short imo we'd need an american equivalent to the G11 in order to see the AR replaced - and even the G11 wouldn't be good enough, because the G11 was part of the ACR program and lost.

The LSAT shows promise though. I saw a demonstration on youtube it is impressive and is said to be working by all sources I have came across.
Actually it is looking so good , that I am afraid that there will be some political fuck up and the whole program goes down the sink.
The arms manufacturing sector won1t take kindly to standardizing PCT or CL rounds wihch they are not ready to manufacture.


I'll have to look into the LSAT a bit more, the only thing I really know about it now is that they used to be making a caseless MG but they aren't anymore.
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United Republics of Aralon
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Postby United Republics of Aralon » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:49 am

Bezombia wrote:
United Republics of Aralon wrote:The LSAT shows promise though. I saw a demonstration on youtube it is impressive and is said to be working by all sources I have came across.
Actually it is looking so good , that I am afraid that there will be some political fuck up and the whole program goes down the sink.
The arms manufacturing sector won1t take kindly to standardizing PCT or CL rounds wihch they are not ready to manufacture.


I'll have to look into the LSAT a bit more, the only thing I really know about it now is that they used to be making a caseless MG but they aren't anymore.

I didn't hear of the caseless part being shot down. Probably the the plastic cased telescopic approach proved cheaper and or more reliable as of yet. This could mean two things, either the whole program goes down the sink, or they are close to the field testing phase.
Last edited by United Republics of Aralon on Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nirvash Type TheEND
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Postby Nirvash Type TheEND » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:53 am

As long as Colt exists as a corporation the AR platform will see use. Backroom politic and corporate influence is very real.

#latetotheparty
Last edited by Nirvash Type TheEND on Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:53 am

United Republics of Aralon wrote:
Bezombia wrote:
I'll have to look into the LSAT a bit more, the only thing I really know about it now is that they used to be making a caseless MG but they aren't anymore.

I didn't hear of the caseless part being shot down. Probably the the plastic cased telescopic approach proved cheaper and or more reliable as of yet. This could mean two things, either the whole program goes down the sink, or they are close to the field testing phase.


That, or they found a goldmine in the CTA MG and decided to focus all their efforts on that.

I can dream, can't I?


Anyway, if the US does end up adopted an LSAT-style CTA machine gun, who knows what comes next? Perhaps the CTA 5.56 becomes standard NATO cartridge, and we'll be seeing a modified HK ACR in the hands of the SAS?

I can dream, can't I?
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
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Aqizithiuda
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Postby Aqizithiuda » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:11 pm

United Republics of Aralon wrote:
Aqizithiuda wrote:
Lyras has you beat by about six years :p .



It's probably best to quote the actual poster directly to make things 100% clear ;) .

Sorry.
What about this lyras thing? I heard about BioSteel and other attempts but it is inferior to natural spider silk, and goats and silkworms have low yield while this is said to be the real deal. They are using E.coli. According to wiki a korean research team also had good results with E.coli. Perhaps the firm is an ofshoot of that experiment.
They also claim to have discovered a new solvent for fibroin that is not as dangerous as the previous ones, which means they can produce longer fibers than without a solvent and do it cheaper since they need not spend so much on safety measures.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4271




With regards to future rifles, I was thinking about this the other day for a story idea I've had kicking around for a while.

Since it's set in 2041, I was going to go all out and make CTA the standard and have the corporation issue the GM soldiers prototype caseless rifles for field testing. Yesterday, though, I came to the conclusion that 2040 is probably when we'll realistically see PCTA or caseless, since that's around when the current generation of rifles (eg: those designed and/or put into production post 2000) will be worn out. Which means, yep, I see us using the 5.56 NATO (albeit with a polymer case) right up to around 2040.
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United Republics of Aralon
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Postby United Republics of Aralon » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:23 pm

Aqizithiuda wrote:
United Republics of Aralon wrote:Sorry.
What about this lyras thing? I heard about BioSteel and other attempts but it is inferior to natural spider silk, and goats and silkworms have low yield while this is said to be the real deal. They are using E.coli. According to wiki a korean research team also had good results with E.coli. Perhaps the firm is an ofshoot of that experiment.
They also claim to have discovered a new solvent for fibroin that is not as dangerous as the previous ones, which means they can produce longer fibers than without a solvent and do it cheaper since they need not spend so much on safety measures.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4271




With regards to future rifles, I was thinking about this the other day for a story idea I've had kicking around for a while.

Since it's set in 2041, I was going to go all out and make CTA the standard and have the corporation issue the GM soldiers prototype caseless rifles for field testing. Yesterday, though, I came to the conclusion that 2040 is probably when we'll realistically see PCTA or caseless, since that's around when the current generation of rifles (eg: those designed and/or put into production post 2000) will be worn out. Which means, yep, I see us using the 5.56 NATO (albeit with a polymer case) right up to around 2040.

Oh, I thought you were serious and there was an other corporation with feasible plans for spider silk mass production.
And s/he used the earlier and inferior silkworm method which IRL has not proven economically sound.
Last edited by United Republics of Aralon on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Black Hand
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Postby Black Hand » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:27 pm

The Republic of Lanos wrote:
Risen Britannia wrote:The future British soldier:
(Image)
The soldier of tomorrow will be equipped with a lightweight (.33kg lighter than L85), intermediate rifle. and will only carry 20kg of equipment on their person. (mustache is mandatory)

If only we all adopted .280 British.

IIRC 6.5X39 is very similar to .280, .280 won't be adopted because legacy cartridge. (bad for PR if you go back, admit you were wrong, and adopt a 60+ year old cartridge that no one ever adopted.)
What I'd like to see in the future is either a 6.5X39 F2000, or other bullpup.
basically anything that isn't an AR derivative in 6.5X39. I'd like to see an over-gassed Short stroke bullpup, that doesn't have the issues of the AK bullpups, and features the forward ejection of the F2000.
Last edited by Black Hand on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DnalweN acilbupeR
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Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:31 pm

Aqizithiuda wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
Just 40x53 LP for infantry use ; 40x53 HP for mounted use.

Also, @ United Republics of Aralon: could you explain why the tonfa shape would not work with a 70-80cm long baton?

FAKEEDIT: Tungsten Carbide is sorta expensive, 250$ for 100 grams from what I hear. that'd be 2.5$/gram. Any idea how much a small window breaking tip would weigh (obviously it is very dense)? I'm guessing maybe 10-20-25 grams? That'd still be upwards of 60 bucks per baton though.. Expensive. So I'm thinking a more cost-effective solution would be to have the metal skeleton of the baton in the horizontal grip sharpened and fashioned into a spike. I was hoping to make the tungsten carbide tip a dual purpose feature in that you could either brake glass with it or hurt someone if you really wanted to ( I'm guessing it could quite easily break bone ) but a metal spike is too much for using on humans. I'm just interested whether it'd work for breaking glass.. or other suggestions?


You realise you can quote multiple posts inside a single post, right?

Just use steel like a normal person. It's not like you actually need the weight or hardness of the tungsten carbide anyway.


Yea I do. Sometimes I'm too lazy tho.

I realize I don't need tungsten carbide. It's too expensive anyways. I still want to retain that ability though. So I'm wondering if a slightly pointy blob-shaped steel end would work for breaking glass like it does with tungsten carbide or I need a spike shape. My main concerns with the spike would be that I'm guessing it would wear out and loose its' sharpness quite fast and also that unlike a blob you can't humanely use it as a weapon against people.

Even modern assault rifles don't come from the factory with many more than 5 mags (most actually seem to come with less). 14 mags (probably upwards of half of the pistol's worth) is far too many.


Better safe than sorry I guess.
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The Republic of Lanos
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Postby The Republic of Lanos » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:33 pm

The standard load for an infantryman in terms of 30rd 5.56mm magazines is typically 6 magazines on his/her body armor/tactical vest (180rd total) and a magazine loaded into the rifle (210rd total). It wouldn't be strange to issue 6-7 magazines with a rifle direct from the factory but just one or two would suffice while the supply depot issues the rest.

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DnalweN acilbupeR
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Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:36 pm

Fordorsia wrote:
Bezombia wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M576_40mm_grenade

If you're team is going in to a building and you're only weapon is your grenade launcher, blowing yourself up isn't an option.


Ever heard of grenades? I hear they're better at killing anything more efficiently.


:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.
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Kouralia
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Postby Kouralia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:36 pm

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
Fordorsia wrote:
Ever heard of grenades? I hear they're better at killing anything more efficiently.


:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.

Ofc it is.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:38 pm

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
Fordorsia wrote:
Ever heard of grenades? I hear they're better at killing anything more efficiently.


:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.

If you're using a UBGL on most conventionally-patterned rifles, then in a building you'll have your finger on the rifle trigger.
If you have no rifle because you're using a standalone launcher, you should probably have a handgun. You certainly shouldn't be taking point and should leave that responsibility to the rest of the fireteam and/or section.
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Postby Fordorsia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:44 pm

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
Fordorsia wrote:
Ever heard of grenades? I hear they're better at killing anything more efficiently.


:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.


It's gotten to the point where I can't even guess if people are serious or not anymore.

So you'd rather use, what is essentially a larger shotgun, at ranges that would make it just like trying to aim a rifle, instead of using something that's almost always used to clear rooms?

Yeah, good luck with that stupid shit.
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DnalweN acilbupeR
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Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:45 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.

If you're using a UBGL on most conventionally-patterned rifles, then in a building you'll have your finger on the rifle trigger.
If you have no rifle because you're using a standalone launcher, you should probably have a handgun. You certainly shouldn't be taking point and should leave that responsibility to the rest of the fireteam and/or section.


..or you could use your revolver ~ 1 gauge shotgun for good measure. You'd probably end up with a lulzy amount of recoil to propel the shot at velocities similar to actual shotguns, but hey, who needs follow up shots once a 1 gauge 2" shell worth of buckshot just discharged into the room?

Fordorsia wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.


It's gotten to the point where I can't even guess if people are serious or not anymore.

So you'd rather use, what is essentially a larger shotgun, at ranges that would make it just like trying to aim a rifle, instead of using something that's almost always used to clear rooms?

Yeah, good luck with that stupid shit.


This reply is better suited to your own post, to be honest. I don't think you understood what you were replying to. The situation was that you were already with your squad(s) in the building and the question was what's the proper munition for your grenade launcher. At this point you can use a grenade with up to 100% odds of killing your enemies ( and yourself ... ) or doing the rational thing and loading up buckshot, obviously assuming you had no better alternative like a SMG or whatever.
Last edited by DnalweN acilbupeR on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Republics of Aralon
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Postby United Republics of Aralon » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:45 pm

Kouralia wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.

Ofc it is.

1 Grenade goes in, creates mess.
2 Team goes in and messes up what grenade failed to.
3 Team leaves, mess remains, poor Consuela gets to celan up.

If steps one and two concurr, team ends up on Consuelas mop as well.
Image
-"No, no no. Senhor operator no here. No no no senhor, senhor operator is no here.I go, room very messy. No ,Senhor operator is on the kicthen wall.No no no no."
Last edited by United Republics of Aralon on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:49 pm

United Republics of Aralon wrote:
Kouralia wrote:Ofc it is.

1 grenade goes in (hopefully) creates mess.
2 team goes in and messes up what the grenade failed to.
3 Team leaves, mess remains, poor Consuela gets to celan up.

If steps one and two concurr, team ends up on Consuelas mop as well.
Image
-"No, no no. senhor operator no here. No no no senhor, senhor operator is no here.I go, room very messy. Senhor operator is on the kicthen wall.
No no no no."


Grenades have to travel a minimal distance before they arm themselves.
40mm buck was designed to be used in situations when the operator would be facing ranges within that minimal distance (such as inside a building) but doesn't have another weapon due to their grenade launcher being their main weapon.


In other words, the China Lake Grenade Launcher is the best pump action shotgun and I don't know why we're using R870s instead.
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Ea90
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Postby Ea90 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:49 pm

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote: :palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.

Urm...
yes it is?

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Black Hand
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Postby Black Hand » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:51 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
:palm:

..because using grenades in CQB is a great idea.

If you're using a UBGL on most conventionally-patterned rifles, then in a building you'll have your finger on the rifle trigger.
If you have no rifle because you're using a standalone launcher, you should probably have a handgun. You certainly shouldn't be taking point and should leave that responsibility to the rest of the fireteam and/or section.

Which is why I issue a light GL/shotgun. Need close range? empty out all your Grenades and load up buck, slugs, or even APDS or Super XREP (a 4" 3 gauge shotgun would be able to pack one helluva zap in an XREP style round.) for other situations. you have one helluva versatile weapon with no diadvatnage over a modern remington 870 or mossberg 500. speaking of which if I were to choose a shotgun to base this thing off of what should I choose? Ithaca 37, mossy 500, remington 870, or KSG with a tube switching mag follower, and better QC?
Last edited by Black Hand on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Republics of Aralon
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Posts: 1332
Founded: Mar 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby United Republics of Aralon » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:52 pm

Bezombia wrote:
United Republics of Aralon wrote:1 grenade goes in (hopefully) creates mess.
2 team goes in and messes up what the grenade failed to.
3 Team leaves, mess remains, poor Consuela gets to celan up.

If steps one and two concurr, team ends up on Consuelas mop as well.
(Image)
-"No, no no. senhor operator no here. No no no senhor, senhor operator is no here.I go, room very messy. Senhor operator is on the kicthen wall.
No no no no."


Grenades have to travel a minimal distance before they arm themselves.
40mm buck was designed to be used in situations when the operator would be facing ranges within that minimal distance (such as inside a building) but doesn't have another weapon due to their grenade launcher being their main weapon.


In other words, the China Lake Grenade Launcher is the best pump action shotgun and I don't know why we're using R870s instead.

Handgrenade. If you don't have noncomabtants or friendlies in the room blowing shit up before entry is the wisest pocedure. once you are in the building explosives are off the table, as UBGL won't arm, handgrenades might be thrown back, or just blow you up too if the walls are shittier than you expected.
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Aqizithiuda
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Founded: Jun 28, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Aqizithiuda » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:53 pm

United Republics of Aralon wrote:
Aqizithiuda wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4271




With regards to future rifles, I was thinking about this the other day for a story idea I've had kicking around for a while.

Since it's set in 2041, I was going to go all out and make CTA the standard and have the corporation issue the GM soldiers prototype caseless rifles for field testing. Yesterday, though, I came to the conclusion that 2040 is probably when we'll realistically see PCTA or caseless, since that's around when the current generation of rifles (eg: those designed and/or put into production post 2000) will be worn out. Which means, yep, I see us using the 5.56 NATO (albeit with a polymer case) right up to around 2040.

Oh, I thought you were serious and there was an other corporation with feasible plans for spider silk mass production.
And s/he used the earlier and inferior silkworm method which IRL has not proven economically sound.


This is, of course, not the real world, so it obviously works just fine :p .

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
Aqizithiuda wrote:
You realise you can quote multiple posts inside a single post, right?

Just use steel like a normal person. It's not like you actually need the weight or hardness of the tungsten carbide anyway.


Yea I do. Sometimes I'm too lazy tho.

I realize I don't need tungsten carbide. It's too expensive anyways. I still want to retain that ability though. So I'm wondering if a slightly pointy blob-shaped steel end would work for breaking glass like it does with tungsten carbide or I need a spike shape. My main concerns with the spike would be that I'm guessing it would wear out and loose its' sharpness quite fast and also that unlike a blob you can't humanely use it as a weapon against people.


My point is that steel is already heavy and hard enough to do what you want without a spike or blob end. It's also going to be quite lethal if used against someone's head.
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Kouralia
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Founded: Oct 30, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kouralia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:53 pm

Bezombia wrote:Grenades have to travel a minimal distance before they arm themselves.

You're Using grenades in CQC wrong. (0:56)
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Bezombia
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Founded: Apr 01, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Bezombia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:53 pm

United Republics of Aralon wrote:once you are in the building explosives are off the table, as UBGL won't arm, handgrenades might be thrown back, or just blow you up too if the walls are shittier than you expected.


Hence, 40mm buck.
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Imperializt Russia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:55 pm

Bezombia wrote:
United Republics of Aralon wrote:1 grenade goes in (hopefully) creates mess.
2 team goes in and messes up what the grenade failed to.
3 Team leaves, mess remains, poor Consuela gets to celan up.

If steps one and two concurr, team ends up on Consuelas mop as well.
Image
-"No, no no. senhor operator no here. No no no senhor, senhor operator is no here.I go, room very messy. Senhor operator is on the kicthen wall.
No no no no."


Grenades have to travel a minimal distance before they arm themselves.
40mm buck was designed to be used in situations when the operator would be facing ranges within that minimal distance (such as inside a building) but doesn't have another weapon due to their grenade launcher being their main weapon.


In other words, the China Lake Grenade Launcher is the best pump action shotgun and I don't know why we're using R870s instead.

Because the China Lake is heavy as shit.
40mm buck would mean you would have to unload a high-explosive round, arguably your most useful round, and load a buckshot round. This implies you somehow expect to use that round, when your fireteam and/or section should be clearing rooms, not you.
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Bezombia
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Founded: Apr 01, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Bezombia » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:56 pm

Kouralia wrote:
Bezombia wrote:Grenades have to travel a minimal distance before they arm themselves.

You're Using grenades in CQC wrong. (0:56)


Throwing a 40mm grenade into a room is not a viable method of taking the room, mainly because it won't explode if you just throw it.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
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