Main Military Weapon of Your Country: Part 12

[Galla-]

Are you ignorant or just misreading me?

The US Army, who basically invented flechettes and fighting wars, said that flechettes sacrifice a significant amount of lethality for penetrating armour. A thin, lightweight dart that flies through the body at high speed and fragments will be significantly less dangerous than a full bore bullet that weighs an order of magnitude more and tumbles or expands without destruction, causing an extremely wide wound cavity that tears up anything it hits.

This applies to 6.5mm CBJ as well, unless they've managed to cram a dart that expands to a similar width and goes a similar depth to some 9mm JHPs into a 6.5mm sabot.

Let's be polite shall we?

What exactly is not polite about that?

Answer: Nothing. It's entirely polite. I began with an honest question.

[San-Silvacian]

For what purpose? For SMGs big yes. But its a bit long for a pistol cartridge. Someone with small hands like mine might find a Tok pistol inconvenient.

Well, I see where you're going at.



But does it really look that hard to grip?

look and feel are different things.

Compared to a 9x19mm pistol, I'd bet the pistol would fit better in someones hands.

[Ulster]

Can someone make a case for PDWs? I read into them as being a hybrid between an SMG and a carbine, so they're a bit of a curiosity. Good for replacing SMGs?

[Bezombia]

If this isn't impossible to grip, than a Tokarev should be just dandy.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

They have similar wound profiles to the .22 WMR and don't reliably penetrate to 30cm depth when fired into bare gelatine. They're shite.



A similar wound profile to the 9mm Para suggests similar wounding capability.

Gel doesn't mean anything.

No. Although MP5 is too cool I cannot resist. 7.62 Tokarev MP5 shall be my standard PDW lol

No.

the MP5 isn't a PDW.

the MP5 is an SMG. It just does the job better than like 90% of all PDWs.

Want a PDW?

[img]http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/_thumbs/Images/smg/smg61/pp2000_02.jpg[/img

9x19mm AP+, small whatever BS you want from a PDW.

want 7.62x25mm SMG in a light cool uber look?



It was made in Leningrad by an old woman in 1942.

The PP2000 looks like utter shit

[San-Silvacian]

If this isn't impossible to grip, than a Tokarev should be just dandy.

note how that isn't in service.

[Bezombia]

Can someone make a case for PDWs? I read into them as being a hybrid between an SMG and a carbine, so they're a bit of a curiosity. Good for replacing SMGs?

PDWs (when done right - and by right I mean with 7.62x25) do what SMGs want to.

Imagine an SMG with three times the range. That's a PDW.

[Aqizithiuda]

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to the gel tests before when you've been around, so either you never bothered to look or you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Are you ignorant or just misreading me?

The US Army, who basically invented flechettes and fighting wars, said that flechettes sacrifice a significant amount of lethality for penetrating armour. A thin, lightweight dart that flies through the body at high speed and fragments will be significantly less dangerous than a full bore bullet that weighs an order of magnitude more and tumbles or expands without destruction, causing an extremely wide wound cavity that tears up anything it hits.

1) it's not a flechette, it's a subcaliber projectile.
2) it was established that steel flechettes with an impact velocity greater than, I believe, 900 m/s would bend on impact with gel, fish hooking and producing nasty wounds.
3) the CBJ's spoon tipped projectile tumbles almost instantly on impact and produces a comparable permanent cavity to a 9mm ball round.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

If this isn't impossible to grip, than a Tokarev should be just dandy.

wtf is that monstrosity

[Kouralia]

If this isn't impossible to grip, than a Tokarev should be just dandy.

wtf is that monstrosity

A bullpup G3, what does it look like?

[United Republics of Aralon]

For what purpose? For SMGs big yes. But its a bit long for a pistol cartridge. Someone with small hands like mine might find a Tok pistol inconvenient.

Well, I see where you're going at.



But does it really look that hard to grip?

No but neither it is double stack. A double stack 9mm still fits well into small hands too, with a 7N21 like cartridge the performance loss is fairly small to negligible, you have more rounds and you have no issue with small handed people.

[Galla-]

Are you ignorant or just misreading me?

The US Army, who basically invented flechettes and fighting wars, said that flechettes sacrifice a significant amount of lethality for penetrating armour. A thin, lightweight dart that flies through the body at high speed and fragments will be significantly less dangerous than a full bore bullet that weighs an order of magnitude more and tumbles or expands without destruction, causing an extremely wide wound cavity that tears up anything it hits.

1) it's not a flechette, it's a subcaliber projectile.
2) it was established that steel flechettes with an impact velocity greater than, I believe, 900 m/s would bend on impact with gel, fish hooking and producing nasty wounds.
3) the CBJ's spoon tipped projectile tumbles almost instantly on impact and produces a comparable permanent cavity to a 9mm ball round.

1) Ic.
2) That sounds less desirable than tumbling.
3) Oh ok it's a loffelspitz so that changes things.

Still doubting the lack of mass though. Wouldn't that mean a reduced penetration depth in the body?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Thanks, I'm not too great at using that.

No problem. Just remember: the specific gravity needs to be 10.4 for FMJ lead cored rounds.

What barrel length would I need for 7.62mm Tokarev for at least 100m effective range?

125mm.

5 inch barrel is far from unworkable for service pistols. What would you say I need for 200m and then 300m?

[Puzikas]

What is this I dont even.

Do I REALLY need to go over Flechettes now?

We should all step back and make an effort to LEARN on our own before we trash this...nope. Done.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

What is this I dont even.

Do I REALLY need to go over Flechettes now?

We should all step back and make an effort to LEARN on our own before we trash this...nope. Done.

Flechettes™: Mini Infantry KEPs

Buy now!

[United Republics of Aralon]

1) it's not a flechette, it's a subcaliber projectile.
2) it was established that steel flechettes with an impact velocity greater than, I believe, 900 m/s would bend on impact with gel, fish hooking and producing nasty wounds.
3) the CBJ's spoon tipped projectile tumbles almost instantly on impact and produces a comparable permanent cavity to a 9mm ball round.

1) Ic.
2) That sounds less desirable than tumbling.
3) Oh ok it's a loffelspitz so that changes things.

Still doubting the lack of mass though. Wouldn't that mean a reduced penetration depth in the body?

No. its brutal.I tumbles spins, breaks apart does all kinds of nasty stuff
. At least once the ACR tirals have been brought up before, during those, it was shown that flechettes cause nastier wounds than a bullet of their sabot diameter. They needn't even be fast if they have a weakspot in them created via for example diferential tempering. Despite this other defficiencies were severe enough for the idea to be discarded, such as low barreier penetration and hectic course changes when passing trough even thin obstacles shuch as window panes/ thin plywood/canvas.

[Ulster]

and you have no issue with small handed people.

Who has small hands these days anyway?

[Imperializt Russia]

1) it's not a flechette, it's a subcaliber projectile.
2) it was established that steel flechettes with an impact velocity greater than, I believe, 900 m/s would bend on impact with gel, fish hooking and producing nasty wounds.
3) the CBJ's spoon tipped projectile tumbles almost instantly on impact and produces a comparable permanent cavity to a 9mm ball round.

1) Ic.
2) That sounds less desirable than tumbling.
3) Oh ok it's a loffelspitz so that changes things.

Still doubting the lack of mass though. Wouldn't that mean a reduced penetration depth in the body?

It would seem reasonable to me that if it is capable of "fishhooking" on impact with soft tissue, then it's still got the energy or momentum to tumble.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Well, I see where you're going at.

(Image)

But does it really look that hard to grip?

No but neither it is double stack. A double stack 9mm still fits well into small hands too, with a 7N21 like cartridge the performance loss is fairly small to negligible, you have more rounds and you have no issue with small handed people.

the truth! it burns!

EDIT: Can recoil operated guns have problems cycling when using for example a recoil dampening stock? I'm looking at what action I should use for my service pistol / SMG / PDW.

[United Republics of Aralon]

and you have no issue with small handed people.

Who has small hands these days anyway?

'bout half of under 180 cm men, and women.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Who has small hands these days anyway?

'bout half of under 180 cm men, and women.

Well then does anyone see any major flaws with extended length single stack mags?

[Purpelia]

What is this I dont even.

Do I REALLY need to go over Flechettes now?

We should all step back and make an effort to LEARN on our own before we trash this...nope. Done.

Yes, yes you do. Seriously, just take pride in being our resident professor here and start teaching.

[Ulster]

Who has small hands these days anyway?

'bout half of under 180 cm men, and women.

You mean we can't just give them whistles? Oy....

[Aqizithiuda]

1) it's not a flechette, it's a subcaliber projectile.
2) it was established that steel flechettes with an impact velocity greater than, I believe, 900 m/s would bend on impact with gel, fish hooking and producing nasty wounds.
3) the CBJ's spoon tipped projectile tumbles almost instantly on impact and produces a comparable permanent cavity to a 9mm ball round.

1) Ic.
2) That sounds less desirable than tumbling.
3) Oh ok it's a loffelspitz so that changes things.

Still doubting the lack of mass though. Wouldn't that mean a reduced penetration depth in the body?

2) the PC gets progressively larger as it penetrates the gel.
3) one version. The other is just a plain spitzer.

Being a 40gr, 4mm diameter tungsten penetrator, I think it will have a greater sectional density, and thus greater potential penetration, than most other infantry bullets.

What is this I dont even.

Do I REALLY need to go over Flechettes now?

We should all step back and make an effort to LEARN on our own before we trash this...nope. Done.

I'd love to hear your opinion.

[Tule]

Are you ignorant or just misreading me?

The US Army, who basically invented flechettes and fighting wars, said that flechettes sacrifice a significant amount of lethality for penetrating armour. A thin, lightweight dart that flies through the body at high speed and fragments will be significantly less dangerous than a full bore bullet that weighs an order of magnitude more and tumbles or expands without destruction, causing an extremely wide wound cavity that tears up anything it hits.

3) the CBJ's spoon tipped projectile tumbles almost instantly on impact and produces a comparable permanent cavity to a 9mm ball round.

That's a claim made by CBJ Tech AB.

And it doesn't add up.

The frontal area of a 9mm Parabellum is 63.61 square millimeters. (4.5mm x 4.5mm x pi = 63.61 mm²)

Based on the projectile in the ballistic soap image on the CBJ website the dimensions of the 6.5 CBJ penetrator is about 4x4x12 mm.

Assuming that the 6.5CBJ penetrator is a complete cylinder (it isn't) and that it travels sideways all the way through the human body (It won't) the area of the hole generated is only 48 mm².

In other words, A 9mm parabellm that does not expand, fragment or tumble will still cause a larger wound than a 4mm tungsten projectile that keyholes through an entire human being..