Main Military Weapon of Your Country: Part 12

[Tule]

2) It's a 4mm dart, not a 6mm FMJ. What the hell are you going to hit in the body with a 4mm dart? Nothing, that's what. It'll zip right through him and just cause a minor little needle prick that bleeds for a while. You will never hit anything vital unless you shoot someone like 500 times.

Oh you have a decent chance of hitting something vital with a 4mm bullet.

It's just that a vital hit takes fucking forever to incapacitate.

[Kouralia]

Offerings? How's that? I'm not too big on PDWs.

He's going to go off on one about how the 4.6mm HK and 5.7mm FN rounds are shite. They're probably very good at what they're meant to do, but like all specialist things, not too much at other things. I say this having never looked into PDW rounds beyond 'omg, look at CBJ'.

[Bezombia]

Offerings? How's that? I'm not too big on PDWs.

7.62x25 +P+ G7 Intermediate Rifle Cartridge for Pistols

PDW manufacturers hate it!
Germany boycotted its very existence!
Learn the one secret FN doesn't want you to know...

[Galla-]

2) It's a 4mm dart, not a 6mm FMJ. What the hell are you going to hit in the body with a 4mm dart? Nothing, that's what. It'll zip right through him and just cause a minor little needle prick that bleeds for a while. You will never hit anything vital unless you shoot someone like 500 times.

Oh you have a decent chance of hitting something vital with a 4mm bullet.

It's just that a vital hit takes fucking forever to incapacitate.

Flechettes.png

Future rifles will have exploding bullets.

[San-Silvacian]

Was wondering about an ammunition to use for sidearms/SMGs.

Was most curious about .40S&W, 10mm Auto, and 7.62 Tokarev for options, and thought I'd get some second opinions. All help is appreciated.

9mm Para would be more worthy of consideration than 10mm Auto in my opinion. Also .357 SIG. Also .45 ACP.

But really, the 7.62x25mm Tokarev is simply the best there is. This is the general consensus.

LOL

7.62x25mm has its uses.

Just like 9x19mm, .45 ACP and other cartridges.

Certainly knew enough about the AR-10 to convince me of its superiority against the FAL.

RhodieFAL>AR10

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to the gel tests before when you've been around, so either you never bothered to look or you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Gel =/= RL ppl

bones, fat, muscle mass as does clothing and armor mean allot more than some silly gel that 'mimics' what we are made up.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Between 7x46mm UIAC with lolshort barrel a la SCAR PDW



..and 7.62x25mm Tokarev SMG/PDW

what would be the superior PDW?

[San-Silvacian]

Between 7x46mm UIAC with lolshort barrel a la SCAR PDW

(Image)

..and 7.62x25mm Tokarev SMG/PDW

what would be the superior PDW?

Ew.

No.

Use an MP5 loaded with 9x19mm AP+ rounds.

Its better.

[Aqizithiuda]

Offerings? How's that? I'm not too big on PDWs.

He's going to go off on one about how the 4.6mm HK and 5.7mm FN rounds are shite. They're probably very good at what they're meant to do, but like all specialist things, not too much at other things. I say this having never looked into PDW rounds beyond 'omg, look at CBJ'.

They have similar wound profiles to the .22 WMR and don't reliably penetrate to 30cm depth when fired into bare gelatine. They're shite.

9mm Para would be more worthy of consideration than 10mm Auto in my opinion. Also .357 SIG. Also .45 ACP.

But really, the 7.62x25mm Tokarev is simply the best there is. This is the general consensus.

LOL

7.62x25mm has its uses.

Just like 9x19mm, .45 ACP and other cartridges.

RhodieFAL>AR10

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to the gel tests before when you've been around, so either you never bothered to look or you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Gel =/= RL ppl

bones, fat, muscle mass as does clothing and armor mean allot more than some silly gel that 'mimics' what we are made up.

A similar wound profile to the 9mm Para suggests similar wounding capability.

[Bezombia]

Between 7x46mm UIAC with lolshort barrel a la SCAR PDW

(Image)

..and 7.62x25mm Tokarev SMG/PDW

what would be the superior PDW?

7.62x25mm Tokarev +P+ G7 SuperRound

preferable in the M6 series of PDWs

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=242725&p=15119999#p15119999

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

9mm Para would be more worthy of consideration than 10mm Auto in my opinion. Also .357 SIG. Also .45 ACP.

But really, the 7.62x25mm Tokarev is simply the best there is. This is the general consensus.

LOL

7.62x25mm has its uses.

Just like 9x19mm, .45 ACP and other cartridges.

Obviously. But you can't issue them all, can you? But if you need a single cartridge, 7.62mm Tokarev is a pretty cool guy. Eh shoots well and doesn't afraid of armor.

[Coltarin]

This also new bullet.

Fixed for density: http://www.border-barrels.com/cgi-bin/d ... nsity=10.4

Thanks, I'm not too great at using that.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Between 7x46mm UIAC with lolshort barrel a la SCAR PDW

(Image)

..and 7.62x25mm Tokarev SMG/PDW

what would be the superior PDW?

Ew.

No.

Use an MP5 loaded with 9x19mm AP+ rounds.

Its better.

No. Although MP5 is too cool I cannot resist. 7.62 Tokarev MP5 shall be my standard PDW lol

[United states of brazilian nations]

another question: i'm currently linearting a sort of PDW, like a Magpul PDR on steroids. it has a "fatter" appearance and such, is heavier, a little bigger etc. but the big deal is that it fires 7.62x51mm NATO.

well, i didn't know that was chambered for 7x51mm NATO. anyways, at first it was going to be a more traditional design, the went on to be a fat, ugly gun. the foregrip isn't Magpul'd like yours, it has this rounded shape to it but in a smaller angle. the result? a freaking ugly gun. but i might make it just for fun.

on a side note, your gun looks awesome, way more than mine does. but i was looking for something even more compact. and maybe less Magpul'd. not that Magpul'd designs look bad, they look good indeed, but i wanted to recycle FAL magazines and as such my gun needs to look more traditional. to cope with the mags. i know, that makes no sense.

1- would the recoil from that be at least acceptable or will it be a LOLshoulderbreaking recoil? i'm thinking the second option, but i've never fired a gun (gotta be a law-abiding citizen always) so i dunno.

recoil wouldn't be the worst, but follow shots would be a bit hampered vs. a better PDW cartridge, and muzzle blast will be terribad if you put on a compensator on it

2- could i get decent muzzle velocity from, say, a barrel roughly the same length (maybe a little shorter) than a CTAR 21 or a little longer than the one of the P-90 (think a middle ground between both)?

It looks like .308 from 12.5 FALs are getting velocities similar to a 7.62x39, but using heavier bullets, so you should be good there.

3- could i get at least some accuracy from the same barrel? i mean, this will be issued to tank crews and such as a PDW, so i believe around 100-250 meters?

Barrel length has a negligible effect on accuracy.

4- would it offer any significant advantage over other PDWs?

rule of cool from pretty muzzle flash? You'd have heavier bullets than 7.62x39 with similar velocities, but they *do* make 154 grain x39 ammo.

5- would i be better off with some sort of PDR chambered for .300 AAC Blackout?

yeah, or 7.62x39 - it's pretty much made for SBRs
What is your general issue rifle/carbine? It sounds like you're just wanting a subcarbine anyways, so you may as well just make a subcarbine based on your general issue rifle, and that way training, logistics, and costs are simplified and mitigated.

man, everything i thought so far about firearms was that barrels were key to accuracy.
well, living and learning. not that i know much about firearms anyways.

my country uses the FA03A3 assault rifle, designed by me, based on the RL LAPA Modelo 03, also known as LAPA FA 03. you can read about it at forgottenweapons.com, but it doesn't explain why the hell it was not adopted. i know the story though and if anyone wants to hear it want i can tell ya.

anyways, if you want to see it look at my storefront, link on sig. be warned, lots of PMG, including this rifle. i'm planning to make an A4 version, linearted instead of PMG'd because flexibility and freedom. also be warned lots of designs i made before even knowing what the fuss was a long-stoke or short-stroke piston, and before knowing anything about ergonomics or proportions, so some of the designs (especially the FA03A2) are just a piece of shit to say the least.

when i lineart it, i might make a PDW version of it. that was a very nice idea, thanks.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YdYmkFLvgbg/UYCNUaBQzJI/AAAAAAAAIrs/XSpoXbZMfdE/s400/Chocolate_chip_cookie.jpg

-snip- because same questions.

1. With the God Of All Muzzle Devices recoil wouldn't be a problem. But recoil isn't the only problem with 7.62x51.
2. Not really. Try PS90.
3. Yes. Well...somewhat. Not as good as others.
4. No.
5. They'd both be shit. Far too heavy. Just use 7.62x25mm +P+ CBJ like the rest of us.

1- you mean the AN-94's muzzle device? i dunno how it works, neither how to draw it correctly. good idea though.
2- far too long for what i'm thinking.
3- yeah, that was i was expecting.
4- yeah, i was also kinda expecting that. you can't deny truth.
5- but... for the sake of interchangeability between platforms, as our MMW is chambered for 5.56mm NATO and the mags are compatible with .300 AAC Blackout, as well as the bolt (i guess), requiring only a barrel change (i guess. i might be probably am wrong, though. anyways, just swap them upper recievers if required.

[United Republics of Aralon]

Was wondering about an ammunition to use for sidearms/SMGs.

Was most curious about .40S&W, 10mm Auto, and 7.62 Tokarev for options, and thought I'd get some second opinions. All help is appreciated.

9mm Para would be more worthy of consideration than 10mm Auto in my opinion. Also .357 SIG. Also .45 ACP.

But really, the 7.62x25mm Tokarev is simply the best there is. This is the general consensus.

For what purpose? For SMGs big yes. But its a bit long for a pistol cartridge. Someone with small hands like mine might find a Tok pistol inconvenient.

[Purpelia]

Ew.

No.

Use an MP5 loaded with 9x19mm AP+ rounds.

Its better.

No. Although MP5 is too cool I cannot resist. 7.62 Tokarev MP5 shall be my standard PDW lol

Would you be interested in my 7.62 TT derivative? It goes extra fast, extra far (can you say 300m) and kills extra good!

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

What barrel length would I need for 7.62mm Tokarev for at least 100m effective range?

[Purpelia]

What barrel length would I need for 7.62mm Tokarev for at least 100m effective range?

Mine or the default? Since I don't have any numbers on the default.

9mm Para would be more worthy of consideration than 10mm Auto in my opinion. Also .357 SIG. Also .45 ACP.

But really, the 7.62x25mm Tokarev is simply the best there is. This is the general consensus.

For what purpose? For SMGs big yes. But ist a bit long for a pistol cartridge. Someone with small hands like mine might find a Tok pistol inconvenient.

Problem solved:

[Aqizithiuda]

Fixed for density: http://www.border-barrels.com/cgi-bin/d ... nsity=10.4

Thanks, I'm not too great at using that.

No problem. Just remember: the specific gravity needs to be 10.4 for FMJ lead cored rounds.

What barrel length would I need for 7.62mm Tokarev for at least 100m effective range?

125mm.

[San-Silvacian]

He's going to go off on one about how the 4.6mm HK and 5.7mm FN rounds are shite. They're probably very good at what they're meant to do, but like all specialist things, not too much at other things. I say this having never looked into PDW rounds beyond 'omg, look at CBJ'.

They have similar wound profiles to the .22 WMR and don't reliably penetrate to 30cm depth when fired into bare gelatine. They're shite.

LOL

7.62x25mm has its uses.

Just like 9x19mm, .45 ACP and other cartridges.



(Image)


Gel =/= RL ppl

bones, fat, muscle mass as does clothing and armor mean allot more than some silly gel that 'mimics' what we are made up.

A similar wound profile to the 9mm Para suggests similar wounding capability.

Gel doesn't mean anything.

Ew.

No.

Use an MP5 loaded with 9x19mm AP+ rounds.

Its better.

No. Although MP5 is too cool I cannot resist. 7.62 Tokarev MP5 shall be my standard PDW lol

No.

the MP5 isn't a PDW.

the MP5 is an SMG. It just does the job better than like 90% of all PDWs.

Want a PDW?

[img]http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/_thumbs/Images/smg/smg61/pp2000_02.jpg[/img

9x19mm AP+, small whatever BS you want from a PDW.

want 7.62x25mm SMG in a light cool uber look?



It was made in Leningrad by an old woman in 1942.

[Galla-]

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to the gel tests before when you've been around, so either you never bothered to look or you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Are you ignorant or just misreading me?

The US Army, who basically invented flechettes and fighting wars, said that flechettes sacrifice a significant amount of lethality for penetrating armour. A thin, lightweight dart that flies through the body at high speed and fragments will be significantly less dangerous than a full bore bullet that weighs an order of magnitude more and tumbles or expands without destruction, causing an extremely wide wound cavity that tears up anything it hits.

This applies to 6.5mm CBJ as well, unless they've managed to cram a dart that expands to a similar width and goes a similar depth to some 9mm JHPs into a 6.5mm sabot.

This doesn't apply if you're talking about a full bore 6.5mm CBJ, since no one else is.

[Tule]

What barrel length would I need for 7.62mm Tokarev for at least 100m effective range?

Mine or the default? Since I don't have any numbers on the default.

For what purpose? For SMGs big yes. But ist a bit long for a pistol cartridge. Someone with small hands like mine might find a Tok pistol inconvenient.

Problem solved:

Germans. Giving rear-echelon troops PDW's before it was cool.

[Tule]

I'm pretty sure someone's linked to the gel tests before when you've been around, so either you never bothered to look or you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Are you ignorant or just misreading me?

The US Army, who basically invented flechettes and fighting wars, said that flechettes sacrifice a significant amount of lethality for penetrating armour. A thin, lightweight dart that flies through the body at high speed and fragments will be significantly less dangerous than a full bore bullet that weighs an order of magnitude more and tumbles or expands without destruction, causing an extremely wide wound cavity that tears up anything it hits.

This applies to 6.5mm CBJ as well, unless they've managed to cram a dart that expands to a similar width and goes a similar depth to some 9mm JHPs into a 6.5mm sabot.

Let's be polite shall we?

[San-Silvacian]

Mine or the default? Since I don't have any numbers on the default.


Problem solved:

Germans. Giving rear-echelon troops PDW's before it was cool.

\

[Bezombia]

1- you mean the AN-94's muzzle device? i dunno how it works, neither how to draw it correctly. good idea though.
2- far too long for what i'm thinking.
3- yeah, that was i was expecting.
4- yeah, i was also kinda expecting that. you can't deny truth.
5- but... for the sake of interchangeability between platforms, as our MMW is chambered for 5.56mm NATO and the mags are compatible with .300 AAC Blackout, as well as the bolt (i guess), requiring only a barrel change (i guess. i might be probably am wrong, though. anyways, just swap them upper recievers if required.

1. No. AN-94 muzzle device is acceptable for 5.45 Superpansy round. I talk of the true God Of All Muzzle Brakes...the Sieg. Hiel Sieg!
5. Then use your base rifle (in 5.56x45) but with a chopped barrel. Just look at the XM177, AKS-74U, QBZ-95B, SA80 Carbine (can't remember if it's the l98 or l22, I always get them confuzzled), etc.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

9mm Para would be more worthy of consideration than 10mm Auto in my opinion. Also .357 SIG. Also .45 ACP.

But really, the 7.62x25mm Tokarev is simply the best there is. This is the general consensus.

For what purpose? For SMGs big yes. But its a bit long for a pistol cartridge. Someone with small hands like mine might find a Tok pistol inconvenient.

Well, I see where you're going at.



But does it really look that hard to grip?