NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #4

[The Nuclear Fist]

TNF! Ricin coated bullets! Do eet.

Why would you do that to me?! I was already so close to resolving the issue, now I want to issue them to troops.

[The Ashkenazi]

TNF! Ricin coated bullets! Do eet.

Why would you do that to me?! I was already so close to resolving the issue, now I want to issue them to troops.

Do it! The effects of ricin are fucking terrifying, but it has to be injected for maximum effect, so it's not a serious risk to people you're not already trying to kill. You could also coat the frangible shell casings on your artillery shells, which really ups the casualty rate from otherwise survivable minor wounds they can produce. Plus it's super cheap and easy to manufacture.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Ricin is also considered a biological weapon. While you could plausibly do that, it wouldn't take long for people to connect the dots and take measures to kick your ass for using biological weapons like that.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Why would you do that to me?! I was already so close to resolving the issue, now I want to issue them to troops.

Do it! The effects of ricin are fucking terrifying, but it has to be injected for maximum effect, so it's not a serious risk to people you're not already trying to kill. You could also coat the frangible shell casings on your artillery shells, which really ups the casualty rate from otherwise survivable minor wounds they can produce. Plus it's super cheap and easy to manufacture.

Hmm. I'm still wary of issuing it. I feel like a single bullet's worth of ricin probably isn't going to be enough to kill, and it means that there's a risk of poisoning my own troops simply from them loading their own weapons. Would hate to get it on my skin.

Artillery and mortar shells, though. That's an interesting prospect. Would certainly make anti-personnel shells more dangerous, though again I'm wary about poisoning my own troops and there being enough ricin on any one piece of shrapnel to really pose a serious threat.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Ricin is also considered a biological weapon. While you could plausibly do that, it wouldn't take long for people to connect the dots and take measures to kick your ass for using biological weapons like that.

That's another issue that makes me wary. Whilst I'm certainly not adverse to using less than ethical weapons and methods, I feel like that pushes the envelope without much real gain.

[Arcerion]

Ricin is also considered a biological weapon. While you could plausibly do that, it wouldn't take long for people to connect the dots and take measures to kick your ass for using biological weapons like that.

That's another issue that makes me wary. Whilst I'm certainly not adverse to using less than ethical weapons and methods, I feel like that pushes the envelope without much real gain.

Expanding copper jacket is as far as I go.

[The Republic of Lanos]

That's another issue that makes me wary. Whilst I'm certainly not adverse to using less than ethical weapons and methods, I feel like that pushes the envelope without much real gain.

Expanding copper jacket is as far as I go.

Classified as an mass-issuable war crime in many jurisdictions.

[Arcerion]

Expanding copper jacket is as far as I go.

Classified as an mass-issuable war crime in many jurisdictions.

As I said. Not always used. But sometimes issued.

[The Nuclear Fist]

That's another issue that makes me wary. Whilst I'm certainly not adverse to using less than ethical weapons and methods, I feel like that pushes the envelope without much real gain.

Expanding copper jacket is as far as I go.

I'll probably do that. I've already seen some backlash in the war RP I'm in regarding the use of chemical weapons from my allies. I'd hate to lose what good will I've regained from promising to restrict their use to military targets by using a bioweapon so widely. Christ, I never imagined there'd be such an outcry against gassing civilians, the damned tree hugging peaceniks.

[The Ashkenazi]

Do it! The effects of ricin are fucking terrifying, but it has to be injected for maximum effect, so it's not a serious risk to people you're not already trying to kill. You could also coat the frangible shell casings on your artillery shells, which really ups the casualty rate from otherwise survivable minor wounds they can produce. Plus it's super cheap and easy to manufacture.

Hmm. I'm still wary of issuing it. I feel like a single bullet's worth of ricin probably isn't going to be enough to kill, and it means that there's a risk of poisoning my own troops simply from them loading their own weapons. Would hate to get it on my skin.

Artillery and mortar shells, though. That's an interesting prospect. Would certainly make anti-personnel shells more dangerous, though again I'm wary about poisoning my own troops and there being enough ricin on any one piece of shrapnel to really pose a serious threat.

The median lethal dose of ricin is around 22 micrograms per kilogram. You should read about the Bulgarian umbrella assassination, and see how tiny the pellet was. IIRC, they didn't notice the holes which held the ricin until they examined it under a magnifying glass. So a small amount will do. I admit that the risk of poisoning your own troops is a concern, but you probably wouldn't make these munitions general use. I wouldn't worry too much about lethal exposure just through handling these munitions. Ricin doesn't absorb well through the skin, and any personnel transporting or handling ricin coated ordinance could just use protective gloves and change clothes regularly. The real risk is through friendly fire incidents (short artillery shells, soldiers rushing into their own grenades, etc.) Those risks can be mitigated by using ricin only on select munitions and by normal training procedures and equipment to reduce the risk of friendly fire.

This is assuming you're willing to push the envelope that much. But I don't see ricin coated shrapnel being on the same caliber as your massive use of nukes, VX, and mustard gas. If you're throwing the Geneva Convention out the window, you might as well toss out the Hague Conventions too.

Also, while we're at it, you need WP and DIME in your arsenal. EDIT: And napalm. Lots of napalm.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Expanding copper jacket is as far as I go.

I'll probably do that. I've already seen some backlash in the war RP I'm in regarding the use of chemical weapons from my allies. I'd hate to lose what good will I've regained from promising to restrict their use to military targets by using a bioweapon so widely. Christ, I never imagined there'd be such an outcry against gassing civilians, the damned tree hugging peaceniks.

Gas mine, you're getting nuked.

[Arcerion]

Expanding copper jacket is as far as I go.

I'll probably do that. I've already seen some backlash in the war RP I'm in regarding the use of chemical weapons from my allies. I'd hate to lose what good will I've regained from promising to restrict their use to military targets by using a bioweapon so widely. Christ, I never imagined there'd be such an outcry against gassing civilians, the damned tree hugging peaceniks.

I know. For me, if someone breaks the laws and rules of war, as the Newsroom put it "Because if you believe he grabs the free thrower's arm you think the thrower should be allowed to use a knife."

Which war is this?

[The Nuclear Fist]

Also, while we're at it, you need WP and DIME in your arsenal. EDIT: And napalm. Lots of napalm.

WP? DIME?

And I already use napalm. Still, this ricin on select munitions idea might be a neat little idea to keep in reserve. Perhaps I'll pull it out if I ever need an extra push for a big offensive or some such.

[The Ashkenazi]

Also, while we're at it, you need WP and DIME in your arsenal. EDIT: And napalm. Lots of napalm.

WP? DIME?

And I already use napalm. Still, this ricin on select munitions idea might be a neat little idea to keep in reserve. Perhaps I'll pull it out if I ever need an extra push for a big offensive or some such.

WP is white phosphorus, the dreaded burning snow. DIME are dense inert metal explosives, which ostensibly reduce the collateral damage of explosives, but the fragments of which are carcinogenic.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Also, while we're at it, you need WP and DIME in your arsenal. EDIT: And napalm. Lots of napalm.

WP? DIME?

And I already use napalm. Still, this ricin on select munitions idea might be a neat little idea to keep in reserve. Perhaps I'll pull it out if I ever need an extra push for a big offensive or some such.

"General, all our men that are suffering from ill effects have been found to be poisoned by ricin."
"What could be the cause?"
"They were serving on the Rustonian front when those guys attacked."
"...good enough for me. Call the JCS and the President. Let's see if some ICBMs can be used to retaliate."

[The Nuclear Fist]

Gas mine, you're getting nuked.

I've already deployed chemical mines, funnily enough. Enemy foot soldiers (sailors fleeing a grounded ship) were retreating into a forested countryside area. I didn't have the time to send troops to hunt them down but I had a general idea of their location, so I dropped a lot of cluster munitions with bomblets of VX, mustard gas, phosgene, and napalm, along with various anti-personnel cluster munitions. The VX/gas (along with the mines) killed about half of the whole 3000 retreating personnel.

Since I didn't have troops nearby, I'd call it a job done well enough.

I know. For me, if someone breaks the laws and rules of war, as the Newsroom put it "Because if you believe he grabs the free thrower's arm you think the thrower should be allowed to use a knife."

I do not understand this phrase. Can you clarify?

[The Ashkenazi]

WP? DIME?

And I already use napalm. Still, this ricin on select munitions idea might be a neat little idea to keep in reserve. Perhaps I'll pull it out if I ever need an extra push for a big offensive or some such.

"General, all our men that are suffering from ill effects have been found to be poisoned by ricin."
"What could be the cause?"
"They were serving on the Rustonian front when those guys attacked."
"...good enough for me. Call the JCS and the President. Let's see if some ICBMs can be used to retaliate."

That's a pretty damn big jump from poisoning soldiers to nuking cities. Also, MAD.

[The Nuclear Fist]

WP? DIME?

And I already use napalm. Still, this ricin on select munitions idea might be a neat little idea to keep in reserve. Perhaps I'll pull it out if I ever need an extra push for a big offensive or some such.

WP is white phosphorus, the dreaded burning snow. DIME are dense inert metal explosives, which ostensibly reduce the collateral damage of explosives, but the fragments of which are carcinogenic.

Mm, I'm not seeing the point of using DIME munitions, then. Cancer takes a long time to develop.

What might be the advantages to using WP over/in addition to what I already use, though?

[The Republic of Lanos]

"General, all our men that are suffering from ill effects have been found to be poisoned by ricin."
"What could be the cause?"
"They were serving on the Rustonian front when those guys attacked."
"...good enough for me. Call the JCS and the President. Let's see if some ICBMs can be used to retaliate."

That's a pretty damn big jump from poisoning soldiers to nuking cities. Also, MAD.

Ricin is a biological weapon and not taken well.

[The Nuclear Fist]

WP? DIME?

And I already use napalm. Still, this ricin on select munitions idea might be a neat little idea to keep in reserve. Perhaps I'll pull it out if I ever need an extra push for a big offensive or some such.

"General, all our men that are suffering from ill effects have been found to be poisoned by ricin."
"What could be the cause?"
"They were serving on the Rustonian front when those guys attacked."
"...good enough for me. Call the JCS and the President. Let's see if some ICBMs can be used to retaliate."

We're fighting in a country different from both my own and the strongest of my opponent's. Both OOC'ly and IC'ly, the general idea is that as long as the conflict remains focused in that one nation, things won't escalate to that level. That works out the for the both of us, especially since said strong opponent's homeland isn't a terribly far sail away. Well within ICBM range.

I may be a cunt, but I'm not a stupid one. I'm not going to do anything that could risk escalation.

Though if anything on a local level was going to escalate the conflict, I think it would be the death squads.

[The Akasha Colony]

Mm, I'm not seeing the point of using DIME munitions, then. Cancer takes a long time to develop.

DIME munitions aren't meant to kill via cancer. That's just an unpleasant side effect. They're normal explosives mixed with a powdered heavy metal (tungsten) which serves to absorb a portion of the blast, limiting its radius. This makes it useful in situations where a large blast and lots of shrapnel is not desirable, such as urban warfare or demolitions work.

What might be the advantages to using WP over/in addition to what I already use, though?

Chances are you already use WP. It's not as taboo as Ashkenazi implies. The US still uses it.

[The Ashkenazi]

WP is white phosphorus, the dreaded burning snow. DIME are dense inert metal explosives, which ostensibly reduce the collateral damage of explosives, but the fragments of which are carcinogenic.

Mm, I'm not seeing the point of using DIME munitions, then. Cancer takes a long time to develop.

What might be the advantages to using WP over/in addition to what I already use, though?

It burns itself out rather faster than napalm, can be used to create smoke screens, and it's basically a cloud of snow that peacefully drifts to the ground, where it melts your enemy's goddamn skin! Also, you can deliver it via artillery and mortar shells, rather than those big bulky air-dropped bombs.

Chances are you already use WP. It's not as taboo as Ashkenazi implies. The US still uses it.

True. I just like getting TNF to rack up his war crime count.

[The Nuclear Fist]

It burns itself out rather faster than napalm, can be used to create smoke screens, and it's basically a cloud of snow that peacefully drifts to the ground, where it melts your enemy's goddamn skin! Also, you can deliver it via artillery and mortar shells, rather than those big bulky air-dropped bombs.

Mhmm, now the skin melting is an interesting feature. But considering the horrible effects VX and mustard gas/phosgene already have, I'm not seeing the advantage they provide that the other chemical weapons don't. That and that peaceful snow could also very well melt the skin off my own troops.

[The Ashkenazi]

It burns itself out rather faster than napalm, can be used to create smoke screens, and it's basically a cloud of snow that peacefully drifts to the ground, where it melts your enemy's goddamn skin! Also, you can deliver it via artillery and mortar shells, rather than those big bulky air-dropped bombs.

Mhmm, now the skin melting is an interesting feature. But considering the horrible effects VX and mustard gas/phosgene already have, I'm not seeing the advantage they provide that the other chemical weapons don't. That and that peaceful snow could also very well melt the skin off my own troops.

You don't release it into the air and let it drift. You detonate artillery and mortar shells containing it, like you would a normal fragmentation round. Direct fire from any kind of fire support vehicle would also work, and this is nice for clearing out rooms in urban combat. Also, ask any vet of the Normandy campaign, and they will tell you WP is the best for clearing out a MG nest.

[The Akasha Colony]

Mhmm, now the skin melting is an interesting feature. But considering the horrible effects VX and mustard gas/phosgene already have, I'm not seeing the advantage they provide that the other chemical weapons don't. That and that peaceful snow could also very well melt the skin off my own troops.

WP isn't deployed as a chemical weapon. It's used for other purposes as a general incendiary. Like DIME, the unpleasant side effects are exactly that: side effects.