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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #4

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Who should OP the next Military Realism Consultation Thread?

Imperializt Russia
59
60%
The Kievan People
21
21%
Velkanika
8
8%
Vitaphone Racing
11
11%
 
Total votes : 99

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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:16 pm

Albynia wrote:I'm trying to piece together the navy for my nation, but I'm not really sure where to start, or if someone could point me in the right direction.

Here's a general primer of my nation:

Albynia geographically and in terms of defense spending is roughly equivalent to Greece, however in this instance assume that the equivalents of Italy, Turkey, and a combined Libya/Egypt each have large navies that far outstrip that which Albynia would muster. The Albynian Navy is generally seen as the neglected branch after the Army and Air Force, and defense spending is not really much of a priority of the government, however, given the overall strength of the economy, the amount spent on defense is not inconsequential (around 7-8 billion USD a year). Albynia's main defense is that Albynia is seen as a neutral party between the three powers, and any attempt to infringe or meddle upon Albynia territories is generally opposed by the remaining two nations. However, there are some disputed islands and gas fields to the east in the Aegean that are claimed by various countries.

General question going forward is, as a relatively small nation surrounded by larger nations with much larger navies, is there much a point of maintaining surface combatants such as frigates or destroyers? I can see the the navy maintaining a few for the sake of having a large ship, but at the same time, are a handful of frigates capable of posing a threat to an actual navy? What would they be expected to do in a shooting war against a more numerous opponent? Does anyone have a primer on how modern naval combat works? Would a ship based Sea Sparrow/Aspide system be of any use for providing air defense to a city?

Second question is regarding policing and patrolling. Are these normally the duties of the Coast Guard duties, or can the Navy pull double duty and not have a Coast Guard at all? Could fast attack craft like the Osa-class be capable of performing patrol, police, and search-and-rescue functions while also being capable of participating in a shooting war?

In the event of an actual shooting war, would it practical to rely primarily on fixed wing aircraft equipped with antiship missiles, with submarines and fast attack craft supporting them?

I am thinking of perhaps 2-3 frigates, maybe 10-15 fast attack craft, and 2-3 submarines would work as a budget minded navy. I hope I am at least in the right ballpark. Thanks!


Yes frigates/destroyers make sense even for a small navy. They can serve as a nice convoy guard if nothing else, protecting your merchant marine from enemy submarines.

Coast guard is usually a separate duty, but you can easily have a navy that does coast guard duties, which is another reason to have a couple of big ships around to. It requires that your marine equivalent also have law enforcement and costumes training on top of combat duties, but that isn't to big an issue since they would be a relatively small force that could have high standards. Plus you wouldn't need to really train them at ground combat if you just wanted them to stay on the ship and leave ground combat to the army.

Your ball park sounds about right.
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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:22 pm

So now that I've organized up to the platoon level, now I need to organize the company.

Here's what I've got so far:

Cell -> Squad -> Platoon

One cell has six men (designated marksmen, two riflemen, one anti-tank gunner, one machine gunner). One squad has two cells. Each squad is equipped with one Patria Pasi APC.

One platoon has three squads, two medics, a platoon leader, an assistant platoon leader, and a three man mortar team. Patria Pasi APCs have a two man crew which are attached to squads but a part of the platoon. HQ members and mortar team also pile into an APC.

In total, 52 man platoon.
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New Vihenia
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Postby New Vihenia » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:07 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:Only because none of us actually know how to critique it :lol:


so my APS also shared similar fate ?
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The Corparation
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Postby The Corparation » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:15 pm

New Vihenia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Only because none of us actually know how to critique it :lol:


so my APS also shared similar fate ?

Presumably. That's the price you pay for knowing more than most of the rest of us. :p
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Dewhurst-Narculis
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Postby Dewhurst-Narculis » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:06 pm

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:52 am

The Corparation wrote:
New Vihenia wrote:
so my APS also shared similar fate ?

Presumably. That's the price you pay for knowing more than most of the rest of us. :p

On the plus side, it serves to amaze and teach us. Plus, I think I might actually comment on that one once my exams are over.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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The Kievan People
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Postby The Kievan People » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:34 am

New Vihenia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Only because none of us actually know how to critique it :lol:


so my APS also shared similar fate ?


I think I remember critiquing it.

But anyways, is radar beamriding really up to the job? While there is no doubt monopulse tracking is accurate enough to track the target, the beamrider doesn't benefit from that. Which raises the question of how the beam is modulated, historically conescan radar was the method of choice because the conical scanning modulated the beam on transmission, but is conescan radar really accurate enough for this purpose?

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/c954460.pdf

Another problem encountered historically with beamrider missiles was the difficulty of capture, especially at low angles. In the 1950's it was determined that missiles would end up as much as +/- 5-7 degrees off center at the end of their boost from the rail, and that a capture beam wide enough to cover this area would be too wide to function when engaging low-angle targets. The inclusion of an INS seems to be mandatory, if you want to be able to be able to capture the interceptor at very low angles with a narrow beam.

And finally, manual mode seems kind of superflous. Is any crewman really going to be able to command detonate an interceptor accurately enough to kill an ATGM in flight, let alone an APFSDS?
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Anemos Major
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Postby Anemos Major » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:17 pm


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Kulsandia
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Postby Kulsandia » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:33 pm

Platoon:

Headquarters Section XA-180

Platoon CO (G36C) (Vehicle Commander)
Driver (G36C)
Radio Operator (G36C)
Runner (G36C)
Platoon Sergeant (G36C)
Medic NCO (G36C)

1x Weapons Squad XA-180

Squad Leader/Platoon XO (G36C) (Vehicle Commander)
Medical NCO (G36C) (Vehicle Driver)

GPMG Team

Team leader (G36)
Gunner (MG3)
Assistant (G36)
Assistant (G36)

Tank Buster Team

Team Leader/Gunner (G36 w/SMAW)
Assistant (G36)
Gunner (G36 w/SMAW)
Assistant (G36)

Light Mortar Team

Team Leader (G36)
Gunner (G36) (51mm Mortar)
Assistant (G36)
Assistant (G36)

3x Rifle Squads XA-180

Squad Leader (G36C) (Vehicle Commander)
Medical NCO (G36C) (Vehicle Driver)

Fire Team One

Team Leader (G36)
Grenadier (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Rifleman (G36)

Fire Team Two

Team Leader (G36)
Grenadier (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Anti-tank Rifleman (G36 w/PzF-3)

Fire Team Three

Team Leader (G36)
Grenadier (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Designated Marksman (Scoped G3)


Current Rifle Platoon.

5x XA-180 Armoured Personnel carriers (Armed with remote MG3)
1x 51mm Mortar
2x SMAW
3x PzF-3
3x Marksman Rifles
9x Light Machine Guns
9x underslung grenade launchers
1x General Purpose Machine guns
46x Assault Rifles and Carbines
58 men total including platoon HQ.
Last edited by Kulsandia on Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:37 pm

Can I start putting specialized anti-tank squads or GPMG squads or snipers or artillery at the company level? I've posted what I've got for cell through platoon above.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:41 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:Can I start putting specialized anti-tank squads or GPMG squads or snipers or artillery at the company level? I've posted what I've got for cell through platoon above.



Anti-tank squad at COy level
GPMG squad at COy level
Marksman/sniper team at COy level
Mortar squad or platoon at COy level
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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:42 pm

Immoren wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:Can I start putting specialized anti-tank squads or GPMG squads or snipers or artillery at the company level? I've posted what I've got for cell through platoon above.



Anti-tank squad at COy level
GPMG squad at COy level
Marksman/sniper team at COy level
Mortar squad or platoon at COy level

What would an anti-tank squad be composed of, exactly? I can't stop imagining six pairs of two men, one an assistant/munitions bearer and the other a gunner.
Last edited by The Nuclear Fist on Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:47 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Immoren wrote:

Anti-tank squad at COy level
GPMG squad at COy level
Marksman/sniper team at COy level
Mortar squad or platoon at COy level

What would an anti-tank squad be composed of, exactly? I can't stop imagining six pairs of two men, one an assistant/munitions bearer and the other a gunner.


Some thing like that, for example, plus squad leader and his assistant.
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there

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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:50 pm

Immoren wrote:Some thing like that, for example, plus squad leader and his assistant.

Now what sort of anti-tank weapon should I use? Preferably some sort of top attack weapon, one that can reasonably be issued to two man teams.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:54 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Immoren wrote:Some thing like that, for example, plus squad leader and his assistant.

Now what sort of anti-tank weapon should I use? Preferably some sort of top attack weapon, one that can reasonably be issued to two man teams.


Javelin would be first to come to mind with
~>two man team
~>top attack.
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there

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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Immoren wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:Now what sort of anti-tank weapon should I use? Preferably some sort of top attack weapon, one that can reasonably be issued to two man teams.


Javelin would be first to come to mind with
~>two man team
~>top attack.

I'll probably go with that, then.

But putting aside the top attack requirement, is there any other anti-armour weapon you'd suggest?
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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Immoren
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Postby Immoren » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:13 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Immoren wrote:
Javelin would be first to come to mind with
~>two man team
~>top attack.

I'll probably go with that, then.

But putting aside the top attack requirement, is there any other anti-armour weapon you'd suggest?


RPG-29
Moar RPG-32
MBT LAW
Spike-MR
SMAW
Metis-M
etc... :P:P
Last edited by Immoren on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there

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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:26 pm

Immoren wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:I'll probably go with that, then.

But putting aside the top attack requirement, is there any other anti-armour weapon you'd suggest?


RPG-29
Moar RPG-32
MBT LAW
Spike-MR
SMAW
Metis-M
etc... :P:P

I was thinking something along the lines of the Shershen, Metis, or Spike. The Shershen seems particularly promising, since it comes in a 'light' version that can fire from the shoulder.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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Immoren
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Founded: Mar 20, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:31 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Immoren wrote:
RPG-29
Moar RPG-32
MBT LAW
Spike-MR
SMAW
Metis-M
etc... :P:P

I was thinking something along the lines of the Shershen, Metis, or Spike. The Shershen seems particularly promising, since it comes in a 'light' version that can fire from the shoulder.



Do this with Spike-MR
Squad leader
Squad 2ic
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant

Four launchers is probably good enough for COy level, enough missiles to theoretically take down a tank company, and three men teams to share the burden of launcher components and missiles.
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there

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The Nuclear Fist
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Founded: May 02, 2010
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:33 pm

Immoren wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:I was thinking something along the lines of the Shershen, Metis, or Spike. The Shershen seems particularly promising, since it comes in a 'light' version that can fire from the shoulder.



Do this with Spike-MR
Squad leader
Squad 2ic
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant
ATGM team
-Team leader
-Gunner
-Assistant

Four launchers is probably good enough for COy level, enough missiles to theoretically take down a tank company, and three men teams to share the burden of launcher components and missiles.

So how many men is that altogether?
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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The Nuclear Fist
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Founded: May 02, 2010
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:36 pm

-
Last edited by The Nuclear Fist on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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The Nuclear Fist
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Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:43 pm

So at the company level, how many platoons should I have?
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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Krazakistan
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Postby Krazakistan » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:39 pm

The Nuclear Fist wrote:So at the company level, how many platoons should I have?

3 rifle platoons, 1 weapons platoon (for me this would be a MG/ATGM platoon instead), and your headquarters unit.
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Anacasppia
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Postby Anacasppia » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:41 pm

Is the Visby's composite hull material ('a PVC core with a carbon fibre and vinyl laminate') a viable one in general, and would there be any difficulties in using it for a far larger ~10,000 ton ship?
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The Nuclear Fist
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:59 pm

[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

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