NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #4

[Kouralia]

Is there even a Panama Canal in NS?

I've seen nations adopt the map of Latin America as their map.

Yeah, but why should I care about some canal between some irrelevant far-off nations?

I mean, do I need a reason to go between the canals, when it would probably realistically take years to sail there?

[Rich and Corporations]

I've seen nations adopt the map of Latin America as their map.

Yeah, but why should I care about some canal between some irrelevant far-off nations?

I mean, do I need a reason to go between the canals, when it would probably realistically take years to sail there?

I'm pretty sure NS naval fleets regularly use wormholes.

[Onekawa-Nukanor]

Assuming the situation doesn't go nuclear, though, it should be pretty useful as I see it, and the idea is that this ship would be so large and well-armored that torpedoes would have little effect.

The main problem that I can see is how such a thing could be built, but since there's a non-realistic element to my nation I can disregard that. However, what I do want to make sure is that such a thing, if built, could realistically function and perform its role well.

You also have to consider hilarious bombs like tallboy and grand slam. IIRC at least one tallboy passed all the way through the tirpitz before detonating on the sea bed.

To answer your basic question: nope there is no chance anythign like what you have proposed could even appraoch being built. The yards, steel production facilities and technology simply didn't and more or less couldn't exist.

Face it The Montana/yamato were as big as things had any chance of getting.

You could also probably include the Lion class designs from during/after the war and the Sovyetskiy Soyuz class along with those two.

[Imperializt Russia]

Is there even a Panama Canal in NS?

I've seen nations adopt the map of Latin America as their map.

It does seem oddly popular.

[The Akasha Colony]

Assuming the situation doesn't go nuclear, though, it should be pretty useful as I see it, and the idea is that this ship would be so large and well-armored that torpedoes would have little effect.

The main problem that I can see is how such a thing could be built, but since there's a non-realistic element to my nation I can disregard that. However, what I do want to make sure is that such a thing, if built, could realistically function and perform its role well.

Again, what are you going to do with this ship, even if it worked as a design? By the 1940s and especially the 1950s, aircraft had eclipsed the battleship no matter how big the battleships became. Let's assume you built this giant floating fortress. What are you going to do with it? Any competent enemy fleet with aircraft carriers will simply remain hundreds of miles away and attack you with aircraft, rendering your giant guns worthless. This is exactly what the USN did every time the Japanese tried to use their large battleships; the closest they came to being useful is when Admiral Kurita's Center Force managed to ambush Sprague's Taffy 3 off Samar at Leyte Gulf, and even then that only occurred due to mistakes on the part of the Americans and Halsey's ego.

Or do you envision using it for shore bombardment? It's hilariously overbuilt if it is, and the sheer weight will result in a draft that would keep it quite far from the shore. It would also be less effective than an aircraft carrier once again due to simple range concerns. Rather importantly, it would be unable to threaten a number of important protected harbors that are far enough inland to prevent such large ships from approaching without rendering themselves vulnerable to mines or coastal artillery.

Thus, it has no role except to try to be unsinkable. Even if it worked, you'd have a huge unsinkable but useless boondoggle that would never be useful for fleet battles or shore engagements, and is no less vulnerable to being taken out by strafing of the sensors and optics as a normal battleship.

As others have mentioned, it would still be vulnerable to magnetic influence torpedoes detonated under the ship, as well as mines detonated in a similar position. The greater weight of the vessel only exacerbates this vulnerability, as it places even more weight the keel must bear during an explosion. In the early 1940s, magnetic torpedoes were unreliable due to production faults and shoddy test procedures in most navies, but were already very widespread and their problems solved by the later part of WWII. Even against contact torpedoes, the propellers and rudder remain vulnerable, and this is exactly what happened to the battleship Bismarck, which had generally proven rather resistant to British shellfire and other contact torpedoes until that point.

[Rich and Corporations]

As others have mentioned, it would still be vulnerable to magnetic influence torpedoes detonated under the ship, as well as mines detonated in a similar position. The greater weight of the vessel only exacerbates this vulnerability, as it places even more weight the keel must bear during an explosion. In the early 1940s, magnetic torpedoes were unreliable due to production faults and shoddy test procedures in most navies, but were already very widespread and their problems solved by the later part of WWII. Even against contact torpedoes, the propellers and rudder remain vulnerable, and this is exactly what happened to the battleship Bismarck, which had generally proven rather resistant to British shellfire and other contact torpedoes until that point.

But submarines are demagnetized.

[Onekawa-Nukanor]

Assuming the situation doesn't go nuclear, though, it should be pretty useful as I see it, and the idea is that this ship would be so large and well-armored that torpedoes would have little effect.

The main problem that I can see is how such a thing could be built, but since there's a non-realistic element to my nation I can disregard that. However, what I do want to make sure is that such a thing, if built, could realistically function and perform its role well.

Again, what are you going to do with this ship, even if it worked as a design? By the 1940s and especially the 1950s, aircraft had eclipsed the battleship no matter how big the battleships became. Let's assume you built this giant floating fortress. What are you going to do with it? Any competent enemy fleet with aircraft carriers will simply remain hundreds of miles away and attack you with aircraft, rendering your giant guns worthless. This is exactly what the USN did every time the Japanese tried to use their large battleships; the closest they came to being useful is when Admiral Kurita's Center Force managed to ambush Sprague's Taffy 3 off Samar at Leyte Gulf, and even then that only occurred due to mistakes on the part of the Americans and Halsey's ego.

Or do you envision using it for shore bombardment? It's hilariously overbuilt if it is, and the sheer weight will result in a draft that would keep it quite far from the shore. It would also be less effective than an aircraft carrier once again due to simple range concerns. Rather importantly, it would be unable to threaten a number of important protected harbors that are far enough inland to prevent such large ships from approaching without rendering themselves vulnerable to mines or coastal artillery.

Thus, it has no role except to try to be unsinkable. Even if it worked, you'd have a huge unsinkable but useless boondoggle that would never be useful for fleet battles or shore engagements, and is no less vulnerable to being taken out by strafing of the sensors and optics as a normal battleship.

As others have mentioned, it would still be vulnerable to magnetic influence torpedoes detonated under the ship, as well as mines detonated in a similar position. The greater weight of the vessel only exacerbates this vulnerability, as it places even more weight the keel must bear during an explosion. In the early 1940s, magnetic torpedoes were unreliable due to production faults and shoddy test procedures in most navies, but were already very widespread and their problems solved by the later part of WWII. Even against contact torpedoes, the propellers and rudder remain vulnerable, and this is exactly what happened to the battleship Bismarck, which had generally proven rather resistant to British shellfire and other contact torpedoes until that point.

To be fair, the RN continued investigating battleships designs as far forward as 1949, and radars relative simplicity in the early 50's and before, in conjunction with the weather the North Sea was known for, big-gun battleships were still considered worthwhile, in the RN eyes at least. Economic reality hit pretty hard after the war for the RN though.

[Our Most Resplendent Goddess Sen]

(Image)

A (very) preliminary WIP of a heavy launch vehicle. Uses three of the same engines as the EELV-class launch vehicle; unlike the smaller one, however, the engines aren't throttled to 70% on liftoff.

Probably won't do an interior of this. Trilateral symmetry is a bitch.

Nobody?

[The Akasha Colony]

To be fair, the RN continued investigating battleships designs as far forward as 1949, and radars relative simplicity in the early 50's and before, in conjunction with the weather the North Sea was known for, big-gun battleships were still considered worthwhile, in the RN eyes at least.

This wouldn't have necessarily made them any more useful; many nations had follow-on designs which with hindsight we can say would almost certainly have been a waste of money. It can be argued that at the time they might have seemed attractive to some, but looking back now, it can be seen that they would not have justified their expense, especially a battleship as large as proposed.

But submarines are demagnetized.

What of it? They must be depermed regularly to remain in this state, and this was meant to be a defense against magnetic mines rather than the more sensitive and much closer magnetic influence torpedo detonators.

[The Nuclear Fist]

So for military building, I've got this so far:

Cell -> Squad -> Platoon

One cell has six men (designated marksmen, two riflemen, one anti-tank gunner, one machine gunner). One squad has two cells. Each squad is equipped with one Patria Pasi APC.

One platoon has three squads, two medics, a platoon leader, an assistant platoon leader, and a three man mortar team. Patria Pasi APCs have a two man crew which are attached to squads but a part of the platoon. HQ members and mortar team also pile into an APC.

In total, 52 man platoon.

The only thing I'm not set on is whether to switch out the mortar team for a GPMG.

[Imperializt Russia]

(Image)

A (very) preliminary WIP of a heavy launch vehicle. Uses three of the same engines as the EELV-class launch vehicle; unlike the smaller one, however, the engines aren't throttled to 70% on liftoff.

Probably won't do an interior of this. Trilateral symmetry is a bitch.

Nobody?

Only because none of us actually know how to critique it

[Imperializt Russia]

So for military building, I've got this so far:

Cell -> Squad -> Platoon

One cell has six men (designated marksmen, two riflemen, one anti-tank gunner, one machine gunner). One squad has two cells. Each squad is equipped with one Patria Pasi APC.

One platoon has three squads, two medics, a platoon leader, an assistant platoon leader, and a three man mortar team. Patria Pasi APCs have a two man crew which are attached to squads but a part of the platoon. HQ members and mortar team also pile into an APC.

In total, 52 man platoon.

The only thing I'm not set on is whether to switch out the mortar team for a GPMG.

Six vehicles and a mortar sounds like a lot for a platoon.
52 men also sounds quite large, but doable.

Four vehicles and a mortar feels like it would probably work.

[Rich and Corporations]

(Image)

A (very) preliminary WIP of a heavy launch vehicle. Uses three of the same engines as the EELV-class launch vehicle; unlike the smaller one, however, the engines aren't throttled to 70% on liftoff.

Probably won't do an interior of this. Trilateral symmetry is a bitch.

Nobody?

It looks too much like a sex toy.

[The Nuclear Fist]

So for military building, I've got this so far:

Cell -> Squad -> Platoon

One cell has six men (designated marksmen, two riflemen, one anti-tank gunner, one machine gunner). One squad has two cells. Each squad is equipped with one Patria Pasi APC.

One platoon has three squads, two medics, a platoon leader, an assistant platoon leader, and a three man mortar team. Patria Pasi APCs have a two man crew which are attached to squads but a part of the platoon. HQ members and mortar team also pile into an APC.

In total, 52 man platoon.

The only thing I'm not set on is whether to switch out the mortar team for a GPMG.

Six vehicles and a mortar sounds like a lot for a platoon.
52 men also sounds quite large, but doable.

Four vehicles and a mortar feels like it would probably work.

Did I say six vehicles? I meant four. One for each squad and a command APC for HQ.

And now that I've got the platoon out the way, I can start working on the company.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Nobody?

It looks too much like a sex toy.

It will fuck her enemies to kingdom come.

[Imperializt Russia]

Six vehicles and a mortar sounds like a lot for a platoon.
52 men also sounds quite large, but doable.

Four vehicles and a mortar feels like it would probably work.

Did I say six vehicles? I meant four. One for each squad and a command APC for HQ.

And now that I've got the platoon out the way, I can start working on the company.

No, sorry, six vehicles was some bizarre invention of my mind.

[Kulsandia]

Squad setup, using XM-180 APC's:

Squad Leader (G36) (Vehicle Commander)
Medic NCO (G36) (Vehicle driver)

Fire Team One

Team Leader (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Assistant Gunner (G36)
Anti-tank Rifleman (G36 w/PZF-3)

Fire Team Two

Team Leader (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Assistant Gunner (G36)
Anti-tank Rifleman (G36 w/PZF-3)

Support Team

Team Leader/Assistant Gunner (G36)
Machine Gunner (MG3)
Heavy Anti-tank operator (G36 w/NLAW)
Marksman (scoped G-3)

SO, how is this? I plan for this to be the basic mechanized infantry squad in the Royal Kulsandian Army. A smaller version, mounted in M113 APC's, (pretty much completely replaced) is largely the same but without the Support Team.

[Imperializt Russia]

This sounds like a very heavy infantry squad.

Three machine guns, two multipurpose launchers and an ATGM.
This isn't even platoon level.

[Kulsandia]

This sounds like a very heavy infantry squad.

Three machine guns, two multipurpose launchers and an ATGM.
This isn't even platoon level.

So, too heavy for basic infantry?

I still want to keep the 3-fireteam to a squad system. Each Superior has 3 maneuvering subordinates to command, the fireteam corporal has his 3 guys, the squad leader has his 3 teams, the platoon leader has 3 squads (plus a weapons squad) and so on till Brigade level, of course this doesn't factor in logistical, reconnaissance and fire support assets that arrive in the ToE at Company and Battalion level.

[The Akasha Colony]

So, too heavy for basic infantry?

I still want to keep the 3-fireteam to a squad system. Each Superior has 3 maneuvering subordinates to command, the fireteam corporal has his 3 guys, the squad leader has his 3 teams, the platoon leader has 3 squads (plus a weapons squad) and so on till Brigade level, of course this doesn't factor in logistical, reconnaissance and fire support assets that arrive in the ToE at Company and Battalion level.

The 3-fireteam arrangement is fine, it's just that they're carrying a huge amount of firepower, more than they need and at the level where it starts impacting effectiveness. For one, you have no general purpose riflemen, which is actually an important role since the rifleman is the most flexible man in a squad, able to assist others, take over other roles if needed, and remain the unburdened mobility asset. Right now, all of your men are carrying particularly heavy loads, from the team leader with his UBGL plus grenade ammo, the automatic rifleman with his MG4, the assistant with his spares and extra ammo, and the AT gunner with his launcher.

The common temptation in NS is to load up small units with firepower as if they're supposed to fight Kursk single-handedly, but this forgets the fact that they're meant to be used in the context of a larger organization, where other units can provide complementary support. A rifle squad shouldn't need enough firepower to take out a tank platoon, that's what a weapons squad, weapons platoon, artillery, air strikes, and your own tank platoons are for.

[Risen Britannia]

This sounds like a very heavy infantry squad.

Three machine guns, two multipurpose launchers and an ATGM.
This isn't even platoon level.

My platoon
1x Light mortar (51mm)
3x GPMGs
2x ATGM
1x AA (or a third AT)
3x anti structure weapon/lightweight AT

[Kulsandia]

Ok, so, i've made some changes based on advice. It's based on the makeup of US Army fireteams.

Rifle Squad (XM-180) APC

- Squad Leader (G36) (Vehicle Commander)
- Medical NCO (G36) (Vehicle Driver)

Fire Team One

Team Leader (G36)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Grenadier (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Rifleman (G36)

Fire Team Two (anti-tank)

Team Leader (G36)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Grenadier (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Anti-tank Rifleman (G36 w/NLAW)

Fire Team Three (Marksman)

Team Leader (G36)
Automatic Rifleman (MG4)
Grenadier (G36 w/grenade launcher)
Marksman (Scoped G3)

[Velkanika]

Yeah, but why should I care about some canal between some irrelevant far-off nations?

I mean, do I need a reason to go between the canals, when it would probably realistically take years to sail there?

I'm pretty sure NS naval fleets regularly use wormholes.

Fractal Reality has you covered.

The world of NationStates as far as I can tell is a planet with identical characteristics to Earth, except that the continents have a tendency to change without anyone noticing it into whatever form they have to take with whatever nations they might need for a given RP. As far as I'm concerned, every nation I RP with is, for the duration of the RP, considered to be located on an Earth-sized body with my home region somewhere else. It has always been there for the purposes of the RP, and I don't think about how the physics would work to make this happen because it wouldn't. That's my only exception to my rule of everything functioning under the laws of physics.

[Albynia]

I'm trying to piece together the navy for my nation, but I'm not really sure where to start, or if someone could point me in the right direction.

Here's a general primer of my nation:

Albynia geographically and in terms of defense spending is roughly equivalent to Greece, however in this instance assume that the equivalents of Italy, Turkey, and a combined Libya/Egypt each have large navies that far outstrip that which Albynia would muster. The Albynian Navy is generally seen as the neglected branch after the Army and Air Force, and defense spending is not really much of a priority of the government, however, given the overall strength of the economy, the amount spent on defense is not inconsequential (around 7-8 billion USD a year). Albynia's main defense is that Albynia is seen as a neutral party between the three powers, and any attempt to infringe or meddle upon Albynia territories is generally opposed by the remaining two nations. However, there are some disputed islands and gas fields to the east in the Aegean that are claimed by various countries.

General question going forward is, as a relatively small nation surrounded by larger nations with much larger navies, is there much a point of maintaining surface combatants such as frigates or destroyers? I can see the the navy maintaining a few for the sake of having a large ship, but at the same time, are a handful of frigates capable of posing a threat to an actual navy? What would they be expected to do in a shooting war against a more numerous opponent? Does anyone have a primer on how modern naval combat works? Would a ship based Sea Sparrow/Aspide system be of any use for providing air defense to a city?

Second question is regarding policing and patrolling. Are these normally the duties of the Coast Guard duties, or can the Navy pull double duty and not have a Coast Guard at all? Could fast attack craft like the Osa-class be capable of performing patrol, police, and search-and-rescue functions while also being capable of participating in a shooting war?

In the event of an actual shooting war, would it practical to rely primarily on fixed wing aircraft equipped with antiship missiles, with submarines and fast attack craft supporting them?

I am thinking of perhaps 2-3 frigates, maybe 10-15 fast attack craft, and 2-3 submarines would work as a budget minded navy. I hope I am at least in the right ballpark. Thanks!

[Rich and Corporations]

Second question is regarding policing and patrolling. Are these normally the duties of the Coast Guard duties, or can the Navy pull double duty and not have a Coast Guard at all? Could fast attack craft like the Osa-class be capable of performing patrol, police, and search-and-rescue functions while also being capable of participating in a shooting war?

Generally there is at least a separate organization within the Navy for Coast Guard work, given the nature of Coast Guard duties is different then that of the Navy (day to day emergencies, policing).

I am thinking of perhaps 2-3 frigates, maybe 10-15 fast attack craft, and 2-3 submarines would work as a budget minded navy. I hope I am at least in the right ballpark. Thanks!

Sounds about right.