Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Mk.V

[Rusutania]

Well, Rusutania's armed forces use the Russian GAZ-2975 and T-90MS.
here is a Gaz-2975,

and the T-90MS.

[Anemos Major]

actually KMW does something else but the technology transfers you think they do.
The leopard 2A7 in the moment is the most advanced MBT with the exception of the Type 10 in Japan. I takes into account much more then the requirements of one country and also comes with something that not a single tank has. customization. Each tank can be made according to the wishes of the other country. Stavanger 122 and the Leopard 2E and Leopard 2A6HEL come in mind.
The Challenger 2 and the Leclerc are not upgraded after they are produced. So they are still the same tank as in 1995. The leopard went across several modifications. KMW prides itself on the success of the leopard 2 tank.
There is a project for Indonesia called the Leopard 2A4 Revolution.
Also another thing that holds back the Leclerc is its cost. You can get 2 leopards with at least the same characteristics for the price of 1 Leclerc.
As for aftermarket sales I can tell you that those goes under the perspective governments. KMW has noting to do with those sales.

Where do I even start?

i) The Leopard 2A7 isn't 'the most advanced MBT', nor is the Type 10 (which is jam-packed full of 'innovations' that're either twenty years late or inapplicable elsewhere). It has a good sales pitch going for it, but you need to get that sort of misconception out of your head.
ii) The Leclerc is up to Tranche 2 of its third series of production (S3/XXI), with a new 'F1' standard in consideration for 2015-18, and the Challenger's been modified to the 2E standard for exports and, within the British Army, up to Tier III in a less ambitious protection improvement program since their respective introduction. Sounds like you have some revision to do?
iii) This is mentioned rather more than once in my many posts above.
iv) What on earth are you trying to say here? Whether KMW or the German Government manages aftermarket sales and contract finalisation is wholly irrelevant - it's the final sales package that buyers end up accepting, regardless of who offers what as part of it.

[Dostanuot Loj]

the Leclerc are not upgraded after they are produced.

I don't know where you get this, but there have been four distinct production series of the Leclerc, three of them for the French Army. And the process to upgrade the earliest batch to the latest batch standards is pretty hard along. These include modernizations in 2005.

In fact, the difference between, say, a T1 Leclerc and a T9 Leclerc is greater then the difference between a Leopard 2A1 and Leopard 2A7.

Just because they look the same does not mean that upgrades have not happened.

[Macedonian Grand Empire]

actually KMW does something else but the technology transfers you think they do.
The leopard 2A7 in the moment is the most advanced MBT with the exception of the Type 10 in Japan. I takes into account much more then the requirements of one country and also comes with something that not a single tank has. customization. Each tank can be made according to the wishes of the other country. Stavanger 122 and the Leopard 2E and Leopard 2A6HEL come in mind.
The Challenger 2 and the Leclerc are not upgraded after they are produced. So they are still the same tank as in 1995. The leopard went across several modifications. KMW prides itself on the success of the leopard 2 tank.
There is a project for Indonesia called the Leopard 2A4 Revolution.
Also another thing that holds back the Leclerc is its cost. You can get 2 leopards with at least the same characteristics for the price of 1 Leclerc.
As for aftermarket sales I can tell you that those goes under the perspective governments. KMW has noting to do with those sales.

Where do I even start?

i) The Leopard 2A7 isn't 'the most advanced MBT', nor is the Type 10 (which is jam-packed full of 'innovations' that're either twenty years late or inapplicable elsewhere). It has a good sales pitch going for it, but you need to get that sort of misconception out of your head.
ii) The Leclerc is up to Tranche 2 of its third series of production (S3/XXI), with a new 'F1' standard in consideration for 2015-18, and the Challenger's been modified to the 2E standard for exports and, within the British Army, up to Tier III in a less ambitious protection improvement program since their respective introduction. Sounds like you have some revision to do?
iii) This is mentioned rather more than once in my many posts above.
iv) What on earth are you trying to say here? Whether KMW or the German Government manages aftermarket sales and contract finalisation is wholly irrelevant - it's the final sales package that buyers end up accepting, regardless of who offers what as part of it.

1. It has the latest technology in the field of warfare. The type 10 is considered the first of the 4th generation MBT.
2. The Leclerc I do not know what will happen to it. The challenger 2 is going to get a major overhaul. I give that it has the most advanced armor of all the MBT. Called Dorchester armor.
4. It has to do as someone claimed that the leopard is cheep because of the scores of tanks. The cost is 4.5 million for a new one. How much the governments sell them is a wholly different affair.
About the Leclerc a misconception on my side. As the French label them in Batches.

[United States of PA]

Does no one remember the K2 here? jeez

[The Kievan People]

1. It has the latest technology in the field of warfare. The type 10 is considered the first of the 4th generation MBT.

How do you figure?

[The Akasha Colony]

Also, time to start picking the OP for the next thread.

1. It has the latest technology in the field of warfare. The type 10 is considered the first of the 4th generation MBT.

And these technologies are?

4. It has to do as someone claimed that the leopard is cheep because of the scores of tanks. The cost is 4.5 million for a new one. How much the governments sell them is a wholly different affair.

It's cheap because most people don't buy new ones in the first place, but instead just buy stockpiles the Germans had sitting around after the Cold War. Of course these are going to be cheap; any money the government can get for them is an obvious boon, plus they no longer have to spend money to maintain them.

[Questers]

For the record, ammunition in bustle and charge in carousel was something I did for an experimental tank that didn't enter production.

[Luepola]

Does no one remember the K2 here? jeez

Pokpung-ho Master race

[Anemos Major]

1. It has the latest technology in the field of warfare. The type 10 is considered the first of the 4th generation MBT.

It's built to be compatible with C4I networking and modular protection. If that makes the Type 10 a '4th Generation Tank' (something that's pretty much been unilaterally claimed by TRDI and left uncontested because the Japanese have no intention of becoming an export competitor), the Leclerc has been one since the first model rolled off the production lines, and pretty much every Western MBT equipped with any form of combat networking and applique falls under the same category.

There really isn't much else that marks out the Type 10 as exceptional - you're reading the Wikipedia summary and getting rather too excited.

2. The Leclerc I do not know what will happen to it. The challenger 2 is going to get a major overhaul. I give that it has the most advanced armor of all the MBT. Called Dorchester armor.

The UAE's bought Azur models, which should keep Nexter's Leclerc side of things going for a while. If the French government go bust then nothing will happen to it, if they get their public finances in order then Project Scorpion calls for a number of comprehensive upgrades which they may or may not implement (depending on the French force configuration by then) by 2020 or so.

As for Challenger 2, they've been planning CLIP for ages, and nobody knows whether it's actually going to happen - though Samoz suggests that an industry insider is pointing towards the adoption of a 120mm smoothbore gun as part of an improvement package (contrary to popular belief, the turret redesign required for the adoption of a 120mm gun isn't actually the problem - there was, from what I remember, an adapted turret already designed to accommodate a 120mm smoothbore gun in the Chally 2. I'll find it later.). As for Dorchester, it's just a very well promoted composite armour - given that we don't know the composition of Dorchester to a fine point, and the same problem exists with most current generation composites as used in practically every 3+ generation main battle tank (to use a classification system I deeply dislike), it's hard to claim that the Challenger 2's armour is the 'most advanced' of all the MBTs that exist today. It's definitely one of the thickest arrays, since that's how the Chally 2 is designed, but the efficiency and sophistication of the armour is a different matter.

4. It has to do as someone claimed that the leopard is cheep because of the scores of tanks. The cost is 4.5 million for a new one. How much the governments sell them is a wholly different affair.

And how many fully 'new build' Leopard 2s has KMW sold in straight sales agreements with no additional provisos or 'bonus' additions? The 4.5mn price tag is practically irrelevant when no tanks have been sold for that price - most Leopard 2s are either sold second-hand from Bundeswehr and Dutch stocks (or third hand, like the Strv 121), or new build with old build tanks to buttress the deal, or new build with some sort of 'addition' to sweeten the deal (Greece setting up factories to co-produce the tanks past the final deliveries of Greek Leopard 2HELs, or Qatar buying new build Leopard 2A7s in a discounted package with PzH 2000s). KMW operates at an inherent advantage because they're in no danger of finding their production lines closed down, which means they can sell new build tanks at vastly reduced prices, reinforce the deals with the surplus stock lying around in Bundeswehr warehouses and play the long term game (where they make money off maintenance and long term overhaul costs), whereas GIAT/Nexter can't do the same thing - for them, the French government places significant restrictions on technology transfers, which makes deals like the Greek one untenable, and their production lines are pretty much close to being closed down, with no additional orders to buttress them like the Americans (much like Vickers at the turn of the millenium), which means the deals they need are full price, French produced new build tanks which'll inevitably have to be more expensive than what competitors can offer.

How much the governments choose to sell them at, and the sales model that KMW chooses to adopt, is actually an integral part of this debate. You can't just state that the Leopard 2 isn't operating at an asymmetric advantage because the sales price is 4.5mn when, in practice, buyers never have to pay that much up front or pay that much without additions to sweeten the deal and increase its effective value.

[Anemos Major]

For the record, ammunition in bustle and charge in carousel was something I did for an experimental tank that didn't enter production.

Still did it though. And pretty snazzily, from what I remember :< (sexytank)

[The Torogian Collective]

Is this made by someone over the internet or is this a real concept? Just curious.

[Oaledonia]

Is this made by someone over the internet or is this a real concept? Just curious.

(Image)

Internet.

[Imperializt Russia]

Would I not be right in thinking that Bustle Propellant/Carousel Shells would offer the capability for very long penetrators in an average-height tank?

[Imperializt Russia]

Is this made by someone over the internet or is this a real concept? Just curious.

(Image)

Internet.

Looks like someone put the Endwar Fastback IFV turret onto the Stryker and for some reason, figured it needed a Phalanx radar array.

[Anemos Major]

Would I not be right in thinking that Bustle Propellant/Carousel Shells would offer the capability for very long penetrators in an average-height tank?

Fairly long, though there're some hilarious bustle arrangements that can extend the length of your penetrators out to some incredible levels.

[Imperializt Russia]

Would the length of your bustle not in theory increase the aspect of the "frontal" 60 degree arc?

[Anemos Major]

Stavanger 122

Oh, shit, I forgot. Stavanger? God, where did you pull that from? It's Stridsvagn. Stridsvagn.

Sorry about the somewhat vague response above, Samoz (I can post pics later) - I'm buzzing thanks to a unique combination made up of my newly bought dirt cheap 3DS, a very well mixed Irish Coffee and a fantastic martini.

[Imperializt Russia]

Where do you find an Irish Coffee and a martini at ten in the morning?
Or are you back in Japan?

[Rich and Corporations]

Would I not be right in thinking that Bustle Propellant/Carousel Shells would offer the capability for very long penetrators in an average-height tank?

Fairly long, though there're some hilarious bustle arrangements that can extend the length of your penetrators out to some incredible levels.

I just want to mention that there is probably an obvious reason why it was Sumer... not an actual nation, that adopted the bustle/carousel arrangement.

[Imperializt Russia]

Fairly long, though there're some hilarious bustle arrangements that can extend the length of your penetrators out to some incredible levels.

I just want to mention that there is probably an obvious reason why it was Sumer... not an actual nation, that adopted the bustle/carousel arrangement.

There are no costs, political oppositions or "it's not necessary" arguments against projects chasing theoretical advantages.

[Oaledonia]

Internet.

Looks like someone put the Endwar Fastback IFV turret onto the Stryker and for some reason, figured it needed a Phalanx radar array.

The Fastback was the greatest, ever.

[Immoren]

Stavanger 122

Oh, shit, I forgot. Stavanger? God, where did you pull that from? It's Stridsvagn. Stridsvagn.

What? He wasn't talking about Norwegian city?

[Rich and Corporations]

I just want to mention that there is probably an obvious reason why it was Sumer... not an actual nation, that adopted the bustle/carousel arrangement.

There are no costs, political oppositions or "it's not necessary" arguments against projects chasing theoretical advantages.

Let's seriously consider bustle propellants. If you are shot there, you have a firepower kill. An Abrams won't have a total firepower kill, it doesn't store all ammunition in the bustle.
The steel protecting a shell isn't a great deal of protection from shaped charges. Keep in mind a shaped charge is a focused jet. Have carousel shells won't provide much protection over propellant and shells in carousel.

Samo... try harder.

[Imperializt Russia]

The Abrams does store all ammunition in the bustle. It's fitted with blowout panels and a bulkhead, specially so that a firepower kill is not a catastrophic kill.

Looks like someone put the Endwar Fastback IFV turret onto the Stryker and for some reason, figured it needed a Phalanx radar array.

The Fastback was the greatest, ever.

I didn't like the JSF.
Annoyingly overhyped, because they were the American faction.