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NS Non-Military Realism Thread MK3

Postby Yes Im Biop » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:03 pm

With MK1 dead and MK2 Hiding somewhere I present MK3.


This is for questions concerning NONMILITARY stuff. For your Military needs come right here
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Themiclesia
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Postby Themiclesia » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:07 pm

I have a traditional Westminster-style government, and I was wondering if we should allow proceedings in error (a type of review/appeal) from courts-martial in the House of Peers - the supreme court of judicature.

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Postby Bhelyant » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:22 pm

If nobody else minds, I'll start with the first question... :p

How feasible would engine blocks made out of compacted graphite iron be for a developing nation? I'll be honest and say my only machining experience has been with steel and aluminum, and it seems like CGI is still in it's infancy. :blush:

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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:39 pm

Bhelyant wrote:If nobody else minds, I'll start with the first question... :p

How feasible would engine blocks made out of compacted graphite iron be for a developing nation? I'll be honest and say my only machining experience has been with steel and aluminum, and it seems like CGI is still in it's infancy. :blush:

Not feasible in the least unless you shipped it in from somewhere else unfortunately
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Postby Bhelyant » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:51 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Bhelyant wrote:If nobody else minds, I'll start with the first question... :p

How feasible would engine blocks made out of compacted graphite iron be for a developing nation? I'll be honest and say my only machining experience has been with steel and aluminum, and it seems like CGI is still in it's infancy. :blush:

Not feasible in the least unless you shipped it in from somewhere else unfortunately


Yeah that's what I was figuring. :(
What about a cast aluminum block and removable cast iron sleeves?

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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:59 pm

Bhelyant wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:Not feasible in the least unless you shipped it in from somewhere else unfortunately


Yeah that's what I was figuring. :(
What about a cast aluminum block and removable cast iron sleeves?

What's wrong with just cast iron? What are you designing this for?
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Postby Bhelyant » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Bhelyant wrote:
Yeah that's what I was figuring. :(
What about a cast aluminum block and removable cast iron sleeves?

What's wrong with just cast iron? What are you designing this for?


a lightweight "high performance" engine for a state ran automotive company to compete with imports

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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:35 pm

Bhelyant wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:What's wrong with just cast iron? What are you designing this for?


a lightweight "high performance" engine for a state ran automotive company to compete with imports

"high performance" and "developing country-based automotive company" are usually oxymoronic. If you look around at car companies in india and china, the local initiatives compete by undercutting the imports substantially, not by trying to match them for quality. This is because they lack the engineering capacity to design and manufacture the more technologically advanced aspects of drivetrains economically. Most car companies based in developing countries don't even design their own engines, the ones they build are decade old designs from manufacturers like Mitsubishi and Toyota who have long abandoned that series of engine.

That said, chinese and indian car makers looking for more sophisticated machinery than what can be engineered and built locally tend to outsource the work and reach deals with foreign suppliers, for example the well-known brand Cummins supplies engines to "premium" chinese brand Foton.

Word on the street has it that Tata is investigating using aluminium engines for their next generation of cars but so far they haven't eventuated. Tata is different in this case because they are fortunate enough to have friends in high places (Jaguar and Land Rover) who have experience with manufacturing and using aluminium blocks even though they were designed by Ford.
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Postby Bhelyant » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:51 pm

Maybe developing world wasn't the best description? Not like third world developing world, but one that's making honest strides to move forward (or at least as honest as you can move forward choked with bureaucracy)

I was thinking the engine in question would be for a lightweight 4x4 similar to the Suzuki Samurai and Toyota Blizzard, and another one for something similar to a 70-series.

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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:05 pm

Bhelyant wrote:Maybe developing world wasn't the best description? Not like third world developing world, but one that's making honest strides to move forward (or at least as honest as you can move forward choked with bureaucracy)

So India and China in other words? Trying to be modern and move forward fits them to a t.

I was thinking the engine in question would be for a lightweight 4x4 similar to the Suzuki Samurai and Toyota Blizzard, and another one for something similar to a 70-series.

Then there's not really much point in trying to strive for modernity or technology if you're competing in this class of vehicle.

Here's a demonstration:
Image

Image


If you're buying a 70-Series (or a Samurai/Blizzard etc.), it's because you don't give a fuck about anything other than the off-road ability and the ruggedness of the car in general. This is why the 70 Series has barely changed since the 70's and why Toyota created the 100 and 200 series of Landcruiser. The 70 Series is a no-compromises work truck which is dead easy to repair and will last forever, the people who buy it don't care about the fuel consumption nor it's power output if it means paying extra up front and not lasting as long. The engine in the 70 series is already nearly 25 years old and Toyota still has no plans to replace it (except in Australia where they were forced to use something else).

Even in the 200-Series market, the value of lightweight efficient engines isn't strong enough for people to care too much about them. If you were making a crossover SUV or something that's a fashion statement like an X5 or a Range Rover, it'd be different.
Last edited by Vitaphone Racing on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bhelyant » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:38 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:So India and China in other words? Trying to be modern and move forward fits them to a t.


pretty much ^.^


Then there's not really much point in trying to strive for modernity or technology if you're competing in this class of vehicle.

Here's a demonstration:



If you're buying a 70-Series (or a Samurai/Blizzard etc.), it's because you don't give a fuck about anything other than the off-road ability and the ruggedness of the car in general. This is why the 70 Series has barely changed since the 70's and why Toyota created the 100 and 200 series of Landcruiser. The 70 Series is a no-compromises work truck which is dead easy to repair and will last forever, the people who buy it don't care about the fuel consumption nor it's power output if it means paying extra up front and not lasting as long. The engine in the 70 series is already nearly 25 years old and Toyota still has no plans to replace it (except in Australia where they were forced to use something else).

Even in the 200-Series market, the value of lightweight efficient engines isn't strong enough for people to care too much about them. If you were making a crossover SUV or something that's a fashion statement like an X5 or a Range Rover, it'd be different.


I understand that those are about as utilitarian as you can get, but I'm figuring those should be upgraded first since they'd be the flagship models.
Lightweight, IMO, would be important for the Blizzard-esque vehicle in particular because that class of vehicle is so capable because of how small and lightweight they are. Why not play up that feature?
"easy to repair and will last forever" Wouldn't that be the perfect reason to have replaceable cylinder liners/sleeves? Especially if it's designed in such a way to facilitate a quick and easy in frame rebuild? And at that point, I figure you may as well make the block aluminium.

Isn't a a path of technological improvement what Nissan is doing with their utility Patrol? Such as their more advanced 3.0 in lieu of the 4.x I6, and then they also give customer's the option of coil springs up front instead of the leaves (on the cab and chassis version,) which might make them have the more refined utility vehicle.

There's probably two directions a smaller company could go with this - they could undercut them like with your example, or offer more "features" for the same (or less money) like with Kia or Hyundai. No?

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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:04 pm

Bhelyant wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:So India and China in other words? Trying to be modern and move forward fits them to a t.


pretty much ^.^


Then there's not really much point in trying to strive for modernity or technology if you're competing in this class of vehicle.

Here's a demonstration:



If you're buying a 70-Series (or a Samurai/Blizzard etc.), it's because you don't give a fuck about anything other than the off-road ability and the ruggedness of the car in general. This is why the 70 Series has barely changed since the 70's and why Toyota created the 100 and 200 series of Landcruiser. The 70 Series is a no-compromises work truck which is dead easy to repair and will last forever, the people who buy it don't care about the fuel consumption nor it's power output if it means paying extra up front and not lasting as long. The engine in the 70 series is already nearly 25 years old and Toyota still has no plans to replace it (except in Australia where they were forced to use something else).

Even in the 200-Series market, the value of lightweight efficient engines isn't strong enough for people to care too much about them. If you were making a crossover SUV or something that's a fashion statement like an X5 or a Range Rover, it'd be different.


I understand that those are about as utilitarian as you can get, but I'm figuring those should be upgraded first since they'd be the flagship models.

Then you're better off importing an engine that can compete with luxury 4WD's.
Lightweight, IMO, would be important for the Blizzard-esque vehicle in particular because that class of vehicle is so capable because of how small and lightweight they are. Why not play up that feature?

Because nobody who's looking to buy it cares quite frankly. Cheap and rugged are the key words here. The Samurai and Blizzard are also not what you'd call capable off-road; off-roading on a budget more like. The weight difference between aluminium and cast iron blocks of this size isn't worth the extra cost required for the aluminium block.
"easy to repair and will last forever" Wouldn't that be the perfect reason to have replaceable cylinder liners/sleeves? Especially if it's designed in such a way to facilitate a quick and easy in frame rebuild? And at that point, I figure you may as well make the block aluminium.

You can have replaceable liners and sleeves, there's just not much point in making the whole block out of aluminium. It's probably $1000 more expensive for returns that buyers are likely never going to notice. Hell, until recently the 70-Series didn't even have airbags; this speaks volumes about the kind of people you're selling to.

Isn't a a path of technological improvement what Nissan is doing with their utility Patrol? Such as their more advanced 3.0 in lieu of the 4.x I6, and then they also give customer's the option of coil springs up front instead of the leaves (on the cab and chassis version,) which might make them have the more refined utility vehicle.

Well for starters, the ZD engine was on the Y61 Patrol which when designed was supposed to compete with the 100 Series Landcruiser, not the 70 Series. The only reason the Y61 is still around is because the Y62 Patrol is a completely different sort of truck and doesn't suit typical Patrol buyers. Hence, the ZD engine was relatively advanced for it's day. Currently, it's really nothing special. It's also cast iron iirc. The price difference between coil springs and leaf springs is minimal; leafs are for those who regularly load up, coils are for those who don't.

There's probably two directions a smaller company could go with this - they could undercut them like with your example, or offer more "features" for the same (or less money) like with Kia or Hyundai. No?

Kia and Hyundai didn't start out taking this route though; it's taken them 20 years of persistence, a lot of foreign help and a fully developed and advanced South Korean economy for them to finally start producing good cars. The Kia and Hyundai direction is not an option for developing manufacturers.
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Bhelyant
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Postby Bhelyant » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:22 am

Okay, thank you :)

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Postby Yes Im Biop » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:26 am

I have read that higher O2 percentages in the air would lead to much more efficient combustion engines. My Atmo is 78% O2. So the meant industry is very very different, but most concept's remain the same for what they build. How much bigger...Or rather smaller would a 5,000 Horsepower engine for an airship be? And would a combustion engine work at 333kp/m2
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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:40 am

Yes Im Biop wrote:I have read that higher O2 percentages in the air would lead to much more efficient combustion engines. My Atmo is 78% O2. So the meant industry is very very different, but most concept's remain the same for what they build. How much bigger...Or rather smaller would a 5,000 Horsepower engine for an airship be? And would a combustion engine work at 333kp/m2

In a nutshell, its essentially free supercharging. However the air you're working with means you're going to be at the limits of how much pressure and density you're working with. It will be difficult to build affordable and long lasting engines in these conditions.
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Postby Yes Im Biop » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:43 am

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Yes Im Biop wrote:I have read that higher O2 percentages in the air would lead to much more efficient combustion engines. My Atmo is 78% O2. So the meant industry is very very different, but most concept's remain the same for what they build. How much bigger...Or rather smaller would a 5,000 Horsepower engine for an airship be? And would a combustion engine work at 333kp/m2

In a nutshell, its essentially free supercharging. However the air you're working with means you're going to be at the limits of how much pressure and density you're working with. It will be difficult to build affordable and long lasting engines in these conditions.


Yeah, It just need's to be powerful. We have entire mountain ranges made entirely of metal. That and I have been trying to figure out if SCRAM Jet's would work at lower altitudes at super sonic speeds due to the pressure.

Wait Supercharger's work with Gasoline Engine's?
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Postby Arkolon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:13 am

Is spending ~$13bn on your military (size: 266,250) a year enough? And how about $26bn on public schools?
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Postby Yes Im Biop » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:44 pm

Arkolon wrote:Is spending ~$13bn on your military (size: 266,250) a year enough? And how about $26bn on public schools?


That's a lot of money, and I don't have any frame of reference but it sound's like you should have some ultra smart super soldiers
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:16 pm

Yes Im Biop wrote:
Arkolon wrote:Is spending ~$13bn on your military (size: 266,250) a year enough? And how about $26bn on public schools?


That's a lot of money, and I don't have any frame of reference but it sound's like you should have some ultra smart super soldiers


That's actually a small budget for that many men. The British spend well over three times that on a smaller force of regulars, and the US spends even more per soldier.
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Postby Yes Im Biop » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:43 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Yes Im Biop wrote:
That's a lot of money, and I don't have any frame of reference but it sound's like you should have some ultra smart super soldiers


That's actually a small budget for that many men. The British spend well over three times that on a smaller force of regulars, and the US spends even more per soldier.


Really? Huh, That's a lot of fucking cash
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Immoren wrote:Saphirasia and his ICBCPs (inter continental ballistic cattle prod)
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Postby Arkolon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:54 pm

With $13bn I can only equip under 2,000 soldiers, if you follow the price list of Karlberg AB's storefront, so I don't know. As for schools, I just said voilà, I have 220 schools and universities in total. Is $26bn/year enough to keep that afloat?

Geez, public finance: always spending too much or too little on things.
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Postby Western Lubelia » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:55 am

Quick question.

Would it be too unrealistic to build a canal several hundred kilometers in length so that cruise ships and freight carrying ships could service an inland city. Unlike the Panama Canal or the Port of Hamburg, I wasn't intending on using any natural watercourses along the way, just a 100% human built canal say 400km long.

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Postby Steampunk Mars » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:36 am

It's partly dependent on the landforms in between the coast and your city, but it's going to be a monster project whichever way you cut it (pun intended). Depth of canal, width of canal, number of locks along the length... all of these affect it. Without being able to study your geographical situation, it's difficult to say.

400km without using any existing waterways is probably pushing it. Is there any way you can route ships up a large river or two for part of the route.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia_Canal has some interesting possibilities, and raises some of the stuff you need to think about.
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Postby Akena » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:46 pm

Hello, I have a really, really small question that I just had to ask.

I would want to set up my own racing tournament in NS. How would I go about to "calculating" the end-results of said tournament.

And also, what is the perfect/almost perfect configuration for a rally car (Since I'm building my own).

Thanks in advance :lol:
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Postby Costa Alegria » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:06 am

Bhelyant wrote:If nobody else minds, I'll start with the first question... :p

How feasible would engine blocks made out of compacted graphite iron be for a developing nation? I'll be honest and say my only machining experience has been with steel and aluminum, and it seems like CGI is still in it's infancy. :blush:


Depends. Scientists are currently developing engines that are made entirely out of ceramics.

Also, unrelated, is a minimum wage that is around 98% (man maths here so it's not entirely accurate) of your nation's GDP per capita a good or a bad thing?
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