NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #3

by **San-Silvacian** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:41 am

CTALNH wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:
Shock infantry can be heavy and mobile.

You also have no APCs or IFVs in your military as well from what it seems.

SMGs for your cream of the crop? Thats called state-assisted suicide.

NVGs and FLIR easily break the smoke grenades.

Zig zag is wut. This isn't an early 20th Century naval battle.

PAK-DA.

Scroll down the page more?
My army uses:
APC & IFV
MT-LB Soviet Union Armored Personnel carrier
BMP-1 Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
BMP-2 Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
BMP-3 Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
BMD-1 Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
BMD-2 Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
BMD-3 Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
BMD-4 Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
BTR-D Soviet Union Infantry Fighting Vehicle
My elite troops are Assault infantry!?

But you don't seem to list it in your divisional numbers.

modern day armies don't do long marches anymore. Mass amounts of IFVs and APCs can carry the entire units. Also allot of trucks.

by **Central and Eastern Visayas** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:42 am

Altito Asmoro wrote:Will I need a replacement for my Backfire Bomber?

Most likely.

Embassy · by **Lubyak** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:44 am

CTALNH wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:You shouldn't standardize a division.

Need three basic types, Mechanized, Motorized and Armored.

Mechanized for da IFVs.

Motorized for da APCs

Armored fo da MBTs

Also pic wise your shock infantry are lighter than your riflemen. You typically want your shock units to be well trained and carry more than the average infantryman since they will most likely expel more than the average infantryman.

Why did I even go through the freaking trouble of writing a tactics page if nobody cares...

Shock infantry are supposed to mobile....The average infantryman is supposed to be used for defense.

Also us the saying with Deep Battle goes:A good counter offensive is a good defense to everything.

Your section on Deep Battle strategy is almost a word for word copy of the wiki article on the subject.

by **Altito Asmoro** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:45 am

Still too long. And without the definitive picture.

by **Immoren** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:58 am

motor and mech infantry squad
vehicle+crew
first fire team
-squad leader (rk 95)
-lmg gunner (kvkk 62)
-dmr (dragunov)
-grenadier (rk 95, ubgl)
-rifleman (rk 95, law)
second fire team
-squad 2ic (rk 95)
-lmg gunner (kvkk 62)
-at-guy (rk 95, nlaw)
-grenadier (rk 95, ubgl)
-rifleman (rk 95, law)
armoured infantry squad
cv90&crew
first fire team
-squad leader (rk 95, ubgl)
-gpmg gunner (pkm)
-gpmg assistant(rk 95)
-dmr (dragunov)
second fire team
-squad 2ic (rk 95, ubgl)
-gpmg gunner (pkm)
-gpmg assistant (rk 95)
-at-guy (rk 95, nlaw)

by **Austria-Bohemia-Hungary** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:07 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:On the topic of basic setups...
Everything you ever going to need is in my factbook. <.< Though I may provide an Anglo-Saxon translation later.

Light Infantry Regiment

Trupp (Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5C
Gefreiter (PFC) – StG 77A5 w/AG77
Soldat – MG 3
Soldat – StG 77A5

Mörser Trupp (Mortar Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Geschütz-Vormeister (Cpl) – StG 77A5C
Geschütz-Vormeister (Cpl) – StG 77A5 w/mGrW 82
Vormeister (PFC) – StG 77A5 w/AG77
Kanonier (Gunner) – StG 77A5
Kanonier (Gunner) – StG 77A5
Kanonier (Gunner) – StG 77A5

MG Trupp (MG Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Gewehr-Vormeister (Cpl) – StG 77A5C
Vormeister (PFC) – MG 3
Kanonier (Gunner) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5

Meldertrupp (Signals Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer – StG 77A5C
Corporal – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5

Scharfschützentrupp (Sniper Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Patrouillenführer (Cpl) – G28A1
Oberschütze (PFC) – SSG 69
Schütze (Rifleman) – SSG 69
Schütze (Rifleman) – G28A1

ÜsMG Trupp (HMG Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Gewehr-Vormeister (Cpl) – üsMG M2
Kanonier (Gunner) – StG 77A5
Kanonier (Gunner) – StG 77A5
Kanonier (Gunner) – StG 77A5

PzAbwhr Trupp (AT Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5
Corporal – StG 77A5 w/PALW 02 NLAW
Soldat – StG 77A5 w/PALW 02 NLAW
Soldat – StG 77A5 w/PAR 12 SMAW II
Soldat – StG 77A5
Soldat – StG 77A5

Sanitätstrupp (Medical Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5
Corporal – StG 77A5
Sanitätsoldat (Medic) – StG 77A5
Sanitätsoldat (Medic) – StG 77A5
Sanitätsoldat (Medic) – StG 77A5
Sanitätsoldat (Medic) – StG 77A5

Waffentrupp (Heavy Weapons Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5 w/PALW M14/PALW Spike
Corporal – StG 77A5 w/PALW M14/PALW Spike
Soldat – StG 77A5 w/PAR 12 SMAW II
Soldat – StG 77A5 w/Fliegerfaust 2F (FIM-92F)
Soldat – StG 77A5
Soldat – StG 77A5
Soldat – StG 77A5

Gruppe (Section) – 10 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Trupp A (Squad A)
Trupp B (Squad B)

Meldergruppe (Signals Section) – 10 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Meldertrupp A (Signals Squad A)
Meldertrupp B (Signals Squad A)

MG Gruppe (MG Section) – 9 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
MG Trupp A (MG Squad A)
MG Trupp B (MG Squad B)

PzAbwhr Gruppe (AT Section) – 14 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Feldwebel (Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
PzAbwhr Trupp A (AT Squad A)
PzAbwhr Trupp B (AT Squad B)

Sanitätsgruppe (Medical Section) – 14 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Feldwebel (Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Sanitätstrupp A (Medical Squad A)
Sanitätstrupp B (Medical Squad B)

Mörsergruppe (Mortar Section) – 16 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Feuerwerker (Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Beobachter (Observer): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Beobachter (Observer): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Mörsertrupp A (Mortar Squad A)
Mörsertrupp B (Mortar Squad B)

Waffengruppe (Heavy Weapons Section) – 18 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Feldwebel (Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Waffentrupp A (Heavy Weapons Squad A)
Waffentrupp B (Heavy Weapons Squad A)

Zug (Platoon) – 44 pers.
Zgkdt. (Platoon Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Platoon Commander): Stabsfeldwebel (Staff Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller) : Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Schütze (Rifleman): G28A1
Schütze (Rifleman): G28A1
Gruppe A (Section A)
Gruppe B (Section B)
Gruppe C (Section C)
MG Gruppe (MG Section)

Fernmelderzug (Signals Platoon) – 43 pers.
Zgkdt. (Platoon Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Platoon Commander): Stabsfeldwebel (Staff Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller) : Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Meldergruppe A (Signals Section A)
Meldergruppe B (Signals Section B)
Meldergruppe C (Signals Section C)
Meldergruppe D (Signals Section D)

Sanitätszug (Medical Platoon) – 58 pers.
Zgkdt. (Platoon Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Platoon Commander): Stabsfeldwebel (Staff Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller) : Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Sanitätsgruppe A (Medical Section A)
Sanitätsgruppe B (Medical Section B)
Sanitätsgruppe C (Medical Section C)
Sanitätsgruppe D (Medical Section D)

Waffenzug (Heavy Weapons Platoon) – 72 pers.
Zgkdt. (Platoon Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Platoon Commander): Hauptfeldwebel (Colour Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Schütze (Rifleman): G28A1
Schütze (Rifleman): G28A1
Waffengruppe A (Heavy Weapons Section A)
Waffengruppe B (Heavy Weapons Section B)
Mörsergruppe (Mortar Section)
ÜsMG Trupp A (HMG Section A)
ÜsMG Trupp B (HMG Section B)

Compagnie – 241 pers.
Cpkdt (Company Commander): Hauptmann (Captain) – StG 77A5C
Cpkdtstf (Deputy Company Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Cpfw (Company Sergeant Major): Hauptfeldwebel (Colour Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
1. Zug (No. 1 Platoon)
2. Zug (No. 2 Platoon)
3. Zug (No. 3 Platoon)
4. Zug (No. 4 Platoon)
Sanitätsgruppe (Medical Section)
PzAbwhr Gruppe (AT Section)
Mörsergruppe (Mortar Section)
Scharfschützentrupp (Sniper Squad)
ÜsMG Trupp (HMG Squad)

Sanitätscompagnie (Medical Company) – 237 pers.
Cpkdt (Company Commander): Hauptmann (Captain) – StG 77A5C
Cpkdtstf (Deputy Company Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Cpfw (Company Sergeant Major): Hauptfeldwebel (Colour Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Melder (Signaller): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Oberfunker (PFC) – StG 77A5
1. Sanitätszug (No. 1 Medical Platoon)
2. Sanitätszug (No. 2 Medical Platoon)
3. Sanitätszug (No. 3 Medical Platoon)
4. Sanitätszug (No. 4 Medical Platoon)

Bataillon (Battalion) – 600 pers.
Batkdt (Battalion Commander): Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant-Colonel) – StG 77A5C
Batkdtstf (Deputy Battalion Commander): Major – StG 77A5C
Batfw (Battalion Sergeant Major): Offizierstellvertreter (Warrant Officer Second Class) – StG 77A5C
1. Compagnie (No. 1 Company)
2. Compagnie (No. 2 Company)
Fernmelderzug (Signals Platoon)
Waffenzug (Heavy Weapons Platoon)

Regiment – 1440 pers.
Regtkdt (Regimental Commander): Oberst (Colonel)
Regtkdtstf: Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant-Colonel)
Regtfw (Regimental Sergeant Major): Offizierstellvertreter (Warrant Officer Second Class)
I. Oberst-Bataillon (No. 1 Colonel's Battalion)
II. Oberstleutnant-Bataillon (No. 2 Lieutenant-Colonel's Battalion)
Sanitätscompagnie (Medical Company)

Translated Light Infantry Regiment. Medical Company at regimental level is for admin purposes only, the medics themselves get distributed equally among platoons.

by **Lolzieristan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:44 am

Central and Eastern Visayas wrote:
Altito Asmoro wrote:Will I need a replacement for my Backfire Bomber?

Most likely.

I still use them for maritime operations, but if you actually intend them as strategic bombers, yes.

But it's not like they're completely useless...except this is NS, and we like having the newest things money can buy

Have you considered buying something with stealth capabilities?

by **Elan Valleys** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:53 am

Elan Self Defence Force Infantry ORBATs:

by **Austria-Bohemia-Hungary** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:06 am

MG3 or HK21 as squad support weapon? MG3 got the ROF but HK21 is 2 kg's lighter... hmm...

In other news, Formation Reconnaissance Regiment. Now, do I got enough MEDEVAC APC's in there for everybody to survive until the real MEDEVAC comes along? Also, it's wheeled death truck again in the form of Pandur II.

by **Samozaryadnyastan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:24 am

CTALNH wrote:A Shock Army numbers 300,000 men, 1700 smaller-caliber and 1,500 medium and heavy caliber guns, 750 aircraft and 3.000 tanks.

A Rifle Army numbers 80 - 130,000 men, 1,500-2,000 guns and mortars, 50-500 rocket launchers, and 30-250 self-propelled guns.

A division numbers some 10.000 men (10,670 in a guards rifle division), 50 field guns, 175 mortars and 50 anti-tank guns.

Got any complaints about this format?

http://nswiki.net/index.php?title=CTALNHs_Ground_forces

I'm sure your Shock Army is intended for some hilarious kind of combined arms strategy, but it seems awfully large.
I'd have figured that it'd be sensible to stop having official units at the Divisional level and then just have them operate together for operations that somehow require more than one Division's capabilities.

In fact, your Shock Army almost feels very infantry-heavy, when the numbers of compared to Motor Rifle Divisions. Per actual man, they had more than twice the number of tanks you do here. Assuming your 300k at all infantry, then Soviet formations had almost four times as many tanks per infantryman. Tanks sorely missing from your own divisions, and where are the IFVs and SPGs?

CTALNH wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:You shouldn't standardize a division.

Need three basic types, Mechanized, Motorized and Armored.

Mechanized for da IFVs.

Motorized for da APCs

Armored fo da MBTs

Also pic wise your shock infantry are lighter than your riflemen. You typically want your shock units to be well trained and carry more than the average infantryman since they will most likely expel more than the average infantryman.

Why did I even go through the freaking trouble of writing a tactics page if nobody cares...

Shock infantry are supposed to mobile....The average infantryman is supposed to be used for defense.

Also us the saying with Deep Battle goes:A good counter offensive is a good defense to everything.

Infantry units should have tanks, but fewer than Armoured units. Likewise, Armoured units should have fewer infantry than Infantry units, but still plenty. The Russians threw artillery pieces, MBTs and infantry into the infantry units at Regiment and lower, despite the Divisional levels having independent tank and artillery units to boot.

San-Silvacian wrote:
Altito Asmoro wrote:Will I need a replacement for my Backfire Bomber?

PAK-DA.

PAK-DA is a replacement for the Tu-95 and Tu-160, not the Tu-22M.

Lolzieristan wrote:
Central and Eastern Visayas wrote:Most likely.

I still use them for maritime operations, but if you actually intend them as strategic bombers, yes.

But it's not like they're completely useless...except this is NS, and we like having the newest things money can buy

Have you considered buying something with stealth capabilities?

I personally still operate the Tu-95MS, Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 in large numbers, just with more and more updates added on.
If you're going all-stealth, you aren't being into Russia

Extended use of EW aircraft seems more Russian than pushing for stealth everywhere (though the PAK-FA and PAK-DA programmes seem to be about trying to change that view).

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:MG3 or HK21 as squad support weapon? MG3 got the ROF but HK21 is 2 kg's lighter... hmm...

In other news, Formation Reconnaissance Regiment. Now, do I got enough MEDEVAC APC's in there for everybody to survive until the real MEDEVAC comes along? Also, it's wheeled death truck again in the form of Pandur II.

Formation Reconnaissance Regiment

Sicherungstrupp (Security Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Gefreiter (PFC) – StG 77A5 w/AG77
Soldat – MG8
Soldat – StG 77A5

Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section) – 10 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Zugsführer – StG 77A5C
Grpkdtstf. (Deputy Section Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Sicherungstrupp A (Security Squad A)
Sicherungstrupp B (Security Squad B)

Bergepanzerzug (ARV Troop) – 25 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
BPz Greif (Greif ARV)
BPz Tigris (Panthera Tigris ARV)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC)
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC)

Unterstützungstrupp (Support Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Gefreiter (PFC) – StG 77A5 w/PAR 12 SMAW II
Soldat – MG8
Soldat – StG 77A5

Unterstützungsgruppe (Support Section) – 10 pers.
Grpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Grpkdtstf. (Deputy Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Unterstützungstrupp A (Support Squad A)
Unterstützungstrupp B (Support Squad B)

Unterstützungszug (Support Troop) – 29 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x2
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)
Unterstützungsgruppe A (Support Section A in APC)
Unterstützungsgruppe B (Support Section B in APC)

Lenkwaffenstrupp (Guided Missile Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Trpkdtstf. (Deputy Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Soldat – StG 77A5 w/AG77
Soldat – MG8
Soldat – StG 77A5

Lenkwaffenszug (Guided Missile Troop) – 33 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister (Staff Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
RakJPz Huszár (AY151C Javelin Missile Ordnance Vehicle) x4
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)
Lenkwaffentrupp A (Guided Missile Squad A in MOV)
Lenkwaffentrupp B (Guided Missile Squad B in MOV)
Lenkwaffentrupp C (Guided Missile Squad C in MOV)
Lenkwaffentrupp D (Guided Missile Squad D in MOV)

Aufklärungszug (Reconnaissance Troop) – 17 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister (Staff Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
SpPz Scorpion 90 (FV101 Scorpion 90) x2
SpPz Scimitar CT40 (FV107 Scimitar w/CT40 gun) x2
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)

Aufklärungseskadron (Reconnaissance Squadron) – 178 pers.
Eskkdt. (Squadron Commander): Rittmeister (Captain) – StG 77A5C
Eskkdtstf. (Deputy Squadron Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Eskwm. (Squadron Sergeant Major): Hauptwachtmeister (Colour Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
1. Aufklärungszug (No. 1 Reconnaissance Troop)
2. Aufklärungszug (No. 2 Reconnaissance Troop)
3. Aufklärungszug (No. 3 Reconnaissance Troop)
4. Aufklärungszug (No. 4 Reconnaissance Troop)
MTPz Pandur IISAN (Pandur II APC MEDEVAC)
MTPz Pandur IIFÜ (Pandur II APC Command)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x2
Dingo 2
Bergepanzerzug (ARV Troop)
Unterstützungszug (Support Troop)
Lenkwaffenszug (Guided Missile Troop)
Sanitätsgruppe (Medical Section in APC and MEDEVAC)
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC)

Aufklärungsdivision (Reconnaissance Division) – 421 pers.
Divkdt. (Division Commander): Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant-Colonel) – StG 77A5C
Divkdtstf. (Deputy Division Commander): Major – StG 77A5C
Divwm. (Division Sergeant Major): Offizierstellvertreter (Warrant Officer Second Class) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
1. Aufklärungseskadron (No. 1 Reconnaissance Squadron)
2. Aufklärungseskadron (No. 2 Reconnaissance Squadron)
MTPz Pandur IISAN (Pandur II APC MEDEVAC) x2
MTPz Pandur IIFÜ (Pandur II APC Command)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x4
Dingo 2
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC)
Fernmelderzug (Signals Troop in APC’s)

Aufklärungsregiment (Formation Reconnaissance Regiment) – 971 pers.
Regkdt. (Regimental Commander): Oberst (Colonel)
Regkdtstf. (Deputy Regimental Commander): Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant-Colonel)
Regwm. (Regimental Sergeant Major): Offizierstellvertreter (Warrant Officer Second Class)
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
I. Oberstdivision (No. 1 Colonel’s Division)
II. Oberstleutnantdivision (No. 2 Lieutenant-Colonel’s Division)
MTPz Pandur IIFÜ (Pandur II APC Command)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x5
Dingo 2 x6
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC’s)
Sanitätszug (Medical Troop distributed to lower units)
Fernmelderzug (Signals Troop in APC’s and Dingos)

The HK21 is essentially a belt-feed G3.
This means it's going to have recoil like a bitch, be difficult to use and be a very complex weapon to disassemble and clean (partly due to lots of small parts). The MG3 could be rebuilt out of much lighter materials today, and as it's just a recoil-driven weapon, should prove to be far simpler and therefore easier to operate in the field.

by **The Akasha Colony** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:26 am

San-Silvacian wrote:You shouldn't standardize a division.

Need three basic types, Mechanized, Motorized and Armored.

Mechanized for da IFVs.

Motorized for da APCs

Armored fo da MBTs

Also pic wise your shock infantry are lighter than your riflemen. You typically want your shock units to be well trained and carry more than the average infantryman since they will most likely expel more than the average infantryman.

Not necessarily those three. You can combined mechanized infantry and armored together, since mechanized infantry are usually designed to operate with armored units anyway. While you'd still want to separate them at the lowest levels for administrative purposes, they can be safely joined at the battalion level; this is what the US does with its armored brigades, which have two maneuver battalions each with a mix of mechanized infantry and tanks.

After that, it's a matter of need. You could theoretically get away with just armored/mechanized units and light infantry units (which are motorized anyway). The US though prefers to pour money into its oddly-designed Stryker brigades, in order to have a somewhat more protected motorized force that has greater strategic mobility than an armored force. But if a military doesn't feel that capability is a need, then they don't have to operate an intermediate unit.

by **CTALNH** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:27 am

Lubyak wrote:
CTALNH wrote:Why did I even go through the freaking trouble of writing a tactics page if nobody cares...

Shock infantry are supposed to mobile....The average infantryman is supposed to be used for defense.

Also us the saying with Deep Battle goes:A good counter offensive is a good defense to everything.

Your section on Deep Battle strategy is almost a word for word copy of the wiki article on the subject.

So?Its better than most people out there.

by **Elan Valleys** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:30 am

CTALNH wrote:
Lubyak wrote:
Your section on Deep Battle strategy is almost a word for word copy of the wiki article on the subject.

So?Its better than most people out there.

It's plagiarism, which is against NS rules.

by **Austria-Bohemia-Hungary** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:32 am

Samozaryadnyastan wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:MG3 or HK21 as squad support weapon? MG3 got the ROF but HK21 is 2 kg's lighter... hmm...

In other news, Formation Reconnaissance Regiment. Now, do I got enough MEDEVAC APC's in there for everybody to survive until the real MEDEVAC comes along? Also, it's wheeled death truck again in the form of Pandur II.

Formation Reconnaissance Regiment

Sicherungstrupp (Security Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Gefreiter (PFC) – StG 77A5 w/AG77
Soldat – MG8
Soldat – StG 77A5

Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section) – 10 pers.
Grpkdt. (Section Commander): Zugsführer – StG 77A5C
Grpkdtstf. (Deputy Section Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Sicherungstrupp A (Security Squad A)
Sicherungstrupp B (Security Squad B)

Bergepanzerzug (ARV Troop) – 25 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
BPz Greif (Greif ARV)
BPz Tigris (Panthera Tigris ARV)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC)
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC)

Unterstützungstrupp (Support Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Gefreiter (PFC) – StG 77A5 w/PAR 12 SMAW II
Soldat – MG8
Soldat – StG 77A5

Unterstützungsgruppe (Support Section) – 10 pers.
Grpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Grpkdtstf. (Deputy Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Unterstützungstrupp A (Support Squad A)
Unterstützungstrupp B (Support Squad B)

Unterstützungszug (Support Troop) – 29 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x2
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)
Unterstützungsgruppe A (Support Section A in APC)
Unterstützungsgruppe B (Support Section B in APC)

Lenkwaffenstrupp (Guided Missile Squad)
Trpkdt. (Squad Commander): Zugsführer (Staff Corporal) – StG 77A5C
Trpkdtstf. (Deputy Squad Commander): Corporal – StG 77A5
Soldat – StG 77A5 w/AG77
Soldat – MG8
Soldat – StG 77A5

Lenkwaffenszug (Guided Missile Troop) – 33 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister (Staff Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
RakJPz Huszár (AY151C Javelin Missile Ordnance Vehicle) x4
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)
Lenkwaffentrupp A (Guided Missile Squad A in MOV)
Lenkwaffentrupp B (Guided Missile Squad B in MOV)
Lenkwaffentrupp C (Guided Missile Squad C in MOV)
Lenkwaffentrupp D (Guided Missile Squad D in MOV)

Aufklärungszug (Reconnaissance Troop) – 17 pers.
Zgkdt. (Troop Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Zgkdtstf. (Deputy Troop Commander): Stabswachtmeister (Staff Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
SpPz Scorpion 90 (FV101 Scorpion 90) x2
SpPz Scimitar CT40 (FV107 Scimitar w/CT40 gun) x2
FüPz Sultan (FV105A2 Sultan)

Aufklärungseskadron (Reconnaissance Squadron) – 178 pers.
Eskkdt. (Squadron Commander): Rittmeister (Captain) – StG 77A5C
Eskkdtstf. (Deputy Squadron Commander): Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) – StG 77A5C
Eskwm. (Squadron Sergeant Major): Hauptwachtmeister (Colour Sergeant) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
1. Aufklärungszug (No. 1 Reconnaissance Troop)
2. Aufklärungszug (No. 2 Reconnaissance Troop)
3. Aufklärungszug (No. 3 Reconnaissance Troop)
4. Aufklärungszug (No. 4 Reconnaissance Troop)
MTPz Pandur IISAN (Pandur II APC MEDEVAC)
MTPz Pandur IIFÜ (Pandur II APC Command)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x2
Dingo 2
Bergepanzerzug (ARV Troop)
Unterstützungszug (Support Troop)
Lenkwaffenszug (Guided Missile Troop)
Sanitätsgruppe (Medical Section in APC and MEDEVAC)
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC)

Aufklärungsdivision (Reconnaissance Division) – 421 pers.
Divkdt. (Division Commander): Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant-Colonel) – StG 77A5C
Divkdtstf. (Deputy Division Commander): Major – StG 77A5C
Divwm. (Division Sergeant Major): Offizierstellvertreter (Warrant Officer Second Class) – StG 77A5C
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
1. Aufklärungseskadron (No. 1 Reconnaissance Squadron)
2. Aufklärungseskadron (No. 2 Reconnaissance Squadron)
MTPz Pandur IISAN (Pandur II APC MEDEVAC) x2
MTPz Pandur IIFÜ (Pandur II APC Command)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x4
Dingo 2
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC)
Fernmelderzug (Signals Troop in APC’s)

Aufklärungsregiment (Formation Reconnaissance Regiment) – 971 pers.
Regkdt. (Regimental Commander): Oberst (Colonel)
Regkdtstf. (Deputy Regimental Commander): Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant-Colonel)
Regwm. (Regimental Sergeant Major): Offizierstellvertreter (Warrant Officer Second Class)
Militärkraftfahrer (Driver): Patrouillenführer (Corporal) – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
Melder (Signaller): Funker – StG 77A5
I. Oberstdivision (No. 1 Colonel’s Division)
II. Oberstleutnantdivision (No. 2 Lieutenant-Colonel’s Division)
MTPz Pandur IIFÜ (Pandur II APC Command)
MTPz Huszár (AY151A Javelin APC) x5
Dingo 2 x6
Sicherungsgruppe (Security Section in APC’s)
Sanitätszug (Medical Troop distributed to lower units)
Fernmelderzug (Signals Troop in APC’s and Dingos)

The HK21 is essentially a belt-feed G3.
This means it's going to have recoil like a bitch, be difficult to use and be a very complex weapon to disassemble and clean (partly due to lots of small parts). The MG3 could be rebuilt out of much lighter materials today, and as it's just a recoil-driven weapon, should prove to be far simpler and therefore easier to operate in the field.

This changes things... and since IRL Austria already dives out of it's Pandurs and Ulans with MG3's... why the heck not. Blame the vogue on BF2 Euro Force.

by **Samozaryadnyastan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:40 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:You shouldn't standardize a division.

Need three basic types, Mechanized, Motorized and Armored.

Mechanized for da IFVs.

Motorized for da APCs

Armored fo da MBTs

Also pic wise your shock infantry are lighter than your riflemen. You typically want your shock units to be well trained and carry more than the average infantryman since they will most likely expel more than the average infantryman.

Not necessarily those three. You can combined mechanized infantry and armored together, since mechanized infantry are usually designed to operate with armored units anyway. While you'd still want to separate them at the lowest levels for administrative purposes, they can be safely joined at the battalion level; this is what the US does with its armored brigades, which have two maneuver battalions each with a mix of mechanized infantry and tanks.

After that, it's a matter of need. You could theoretically get away with just armored/mechanized units and light infantry units (which are motorized anyway). The US though prefers to pour money into its oddly-designed Stryker brigades, in order to have a somewhat more protected motorized force that has greater strategic mobility than an armored force. But if a military doesn't feel that capability is a need, then they don't have to operate an intermediate unit.

Frankly, I think separating Motorised and Mechanised as San described is fairly pointless, those should be joined under one banner. You should probably only separate Motorised and Mechanised if your 'motorised' is solely trucks and jeeps.
Divisional levels should, as I said above, already encourage a healthy mixing of motorised/mechanised infantry and armoured units anyway.

by **Strykla** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:50 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:You shouldn't standardize a division.

Need three basic types, Mechanized, Motorized and Armored.

Mechanized for da IFVs.

Motorized for da APCs

Armored fo da MBTs

Also pic wise your shock infantry are lighter than your riflemen. You typically want your shock units to be well trained and carry more than the average infantryman since they will most likely expel more than the average infantryman.

Not necessarily those three. You can combined mechanized infantry and armored together, since mechanized infantry are usually designed to operate with armored units anyway. While you'd still want to separate them at the lowest levels for administrative purposes, they can be safely joined at the battalion level; this is what the US does with its armored brigades, which have two maneuver battalions each with a mix of mechanized infantry and tanks.

After that, it's a matter of need. You could theoretically get away with just armored/mechanized units and light infantry units (which are motorized anyway). The US though prefers to pour money into its oddly-designed Stryker brigades, in order to have a somewhat more protected motorized force that has greater strategic mobility than an armored force. But if a military doesn't feel that capability is a need, then they don't have to operate an intermediate unit.

Whenever I see 'Stryker' I think 'Strykla'. Does that make me narcissist?

Anyway, I always considered 'mechanized' to be pretty much the same as 'motorized' - sure, the ~~Strykla~~ Stryker was designed as a light armored vehicle, but it is still a 'battle taxi', no?

What if I make a 'Strykler'?

by **Samozaryadnyastan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:52 am

I always thought the Stryker was an intermediate to something else, and was part of the "wheeled vehicles are less scary to terrified civilians than tracks" bandwagon in Iraq.

by **Strykla** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:54 am

Samozaryadnyastan wrote:I always thought the Stryker was an intermediate to something else, and was part of the "wheeled vehicles are less scary to terrified civilians than tracks" bandwagon in Iraq.

Wimps. Maybe the US Army should invest in half-tracks; half as scary.

by **The Akasha Colony** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:56 am

Strykla wrote:
The Akasha Colony wrote:
Not necessarily those three. You can combined mechanized infantry and armored together, since mechanized infantry are usually designed to operate with armored units anyway. While you'd still want to separate them at the lowest levels for administrative purposes, they can be safely joined at the battalion level; this is what the US does with its armored brigades, which have two maneuver battalions each with a mix of mechanized infantry and tanks.

After that, it's a matter of need. You could theoretically get away with just armored/mechanized units and light infantry units (which are motorized anyway). The US though prefers to pour money into its oddly-designed Stryker brigades, in order to have a somewhat more protected motorized force that has greater strategic mobility than an armored force. But if a military doesn't feel that capability is a need, then they don't have to operate an intermediate unit.

Whenever I see 'Stryker' I think 'Strykla'. Does that make me narcissist?

Anyway, I always considered 'mechanized' to be pretty much the same as 'motorized' - sure, the ~~Strykla~~ Stryker was designed as a light armored vehicle, but it is still a 'battle taxi', no?

When the MGS and other direct combat variants are factored into the equation, no, at least not in the same way that the original M113 was. The Stryker is designed more for the ACAV role the M113 was later pressed into. It's not designed to do direct battle with IFVs (which are out of its weight class anyway) but it is designed to support its troops in direct anti-infantry or anti-light vehicle engagements. IMO, it's still not very well designed for the task, but that is ostensibly what it's supposed to do.

I usually considered the difference between motorized and mechanized infantry to be whether they can keep pace with armored units. Most IFVs are designed to keep pace with whatever armored units a nation is fielding, while APCs are not necessarily designed as such. Foot infantry in the traditional sense is a paper term nowadays anyway.

by **Samozaryadnyastan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:59 am

This seems useful:
http://www.aircharter.co.uk/aircraft/il76_ilyushin.htm
Googled 'how big is the door on an Il-76' and got this. As it turns out, maximum theoretical dimension of something you can throw from a Candid, 340x344cm, height by width.

I was quite interested by the fact that Il-76s apparently cannot fly into the US or Europe except for specifically military operations.
Bit of a loophole there for the Russians, aye?

by **Lolzieristan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:06 am

It seems to me as though the Stryker was pretty much designed as an IFV for an army that doesn't have to worry about anything heavier than RPGs 90% of the time...which is pretty much what it is actually. It's pretty much just for low-intensity stuff, like Iraq/Afghanistan. If you set a Stryker unit against a major OPFOR, I think they' probably change their paradigms back to wanting Bradleys pretty quickly.

They DO play very nicely into my military organization system, which actually draws a line between a "conventional" Army and an entire branch of specialized Counterinsurgency forces, on the same level as the other three services. But they had best not forget themselves in an armored, air-supported, mined, and missile-studded land-war.

And Samo, they close that by specifically requiring the Russian military to consult them before conducting military operations.

Not that the Russkies do that often, anyway. I seem to recall reading within the last two weeks that two Russian Bears violated US airspace over some island like Guam...moral of the story, journalists don't know the difference between maritime recon planes and nuclear-armed strategic bombers. Scared the shit out of everyone in the room but myself.

We're odd people.

by **The Akasha Colony** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:11 am

Samozaryadnyastan wrote:This seems useful:
http://www.aircharter.co.uk/aircraft/il76_ilyushin.htm
Googled 'how big is the door on an Il-76' and got this. As it turns out, maximum theoretical dimension of something you can throw from a Candid, 340x344cm, height by width.

I was quite interested by the fact that Il-76s apparently cannot fly into the US or Europe except for specifically military operations.
Bit of a loophole there for the Russians, aye?

It's for noise reasons. Stage 2 aircraft do not meet EU/US noise restrictions that came into effect in the early 2000s. Although the engines are relatively new and are considered high-bypass, they have much lower bypass ratios than most Western engines, making them much noisier. Older Western aircraft got noise abatement kits to make them compatible, but AFAIK, the Il-76 never bothered with them.

Lolzieristan wrote:It seems to me as though the Stryker was pretty much designed as an IFV for an army that doesn't have to worry about anything heavier than RPGs 90% of the time...which is pretty much what it is actually. It's pretty much just for low-intensity stuff, like Iraq/Afghanistan. If you set a Stryker unit against a major OPFOR, I think they' probably change their paradigms back to wanting Bradleys pretty quickly.

They DO play very nicely into my military organization system, which actually draws a line between a "conventional" Army and an entire branch of specialized Counterinsurgency forces, on the same level as the other three services. But they had best not forget themselves in an armored, air-supported, mined, and missile-studded land-war.

In terms of actual organization, Stryker brigades seem to be designed mostly for a counter-insurgency role anyway. They lack the level of organic support that other brigades take for granted, impeding their ability to sustain maneuver operations without other brigades present. The entire paradigm seems to be 'get them there as quickly as possible and pray to god someone else sets up the FOB before they run out of supplies.' Thus, they are best used when a supply infrastructure is already in place. Oddly though, they're the only US brigade type to include organic bridging ability, which would only be of use in maneuver warfare.

In actual design, though, Strykers are a bit thin-skinned. Only 7.62 mm protection all around, so if they get MG'ed from the side by a stolen .50 cal or god forbid a 14.5 mm, they're toast. The improved models are supposed to be less vulnerable though. I remain somewhat skeptical of the Army's claim that they can move an entire brigade in 96 hours and a division in 120.

by **Samozaryadnyastan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:16 am

~five thousand people in five days?
Charter a few Tristars, you'll have it done in three.

by **Lolzieristan** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:19 am

The more I think about it, it seems like the Stryker is an American redo/ripoff of early model BTRs, like the BTR-70. With a fancy interchangeable turret system, and a whole lot of other bells and whistles.

We Americans do like our dings and toots, you know.

by **CTALNH** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:20 am

Elan Valleys wrote:
CTALNH wrote:So?Its better than most people out there.

It's plagiarism, which is against NS rules.

So what are you expecting me to make my own tactics?

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