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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #3

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

Who will OP the next realism consolation thread?

The Akasha Colony
35
35%
The Kievan People
7
7%
New Vihenia
4
4%
Purpelia
5
5%
Samozaryadnyastan (Para)
28
28%
Transnapastain
13
13%
Lamoni
9
9%
 
Total votes : 101

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Transnapastain
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 12241
Founded: Antiquity
Compulsory Consumerist State

NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #3

Postby Transnapastain » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:41 am

Previous thread

This thread is devoted to the presentation and discussion of military technology, tactics and concepts in a realistic setting, as well as the development, deployment and discussion of general military technology. Images are welcome, though we ask that excessively large images (to be determined at presentation) be spoiler'd.

Please keep in mind: If you post a design or concept here, you automatically accept that it may, nay will, be criticized. You do not have to agree to accept the criticism and act on it but you forfeited the right to whine about it when you posted. Such is the nature of a public forum. Further, players are encouraged to ask questions, and answer questions to the best of their ability. The adage "Better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt" is apt. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post. If you don't know, ask. Someone will tell you. Try to learn from what the more experienced players have to say, and use that knowledge to improve your understanding. As always, to the veterans, this is not an excuse to flame, troll or otherwise act in an insulting way towards posters. Finally, while some people believe there "is no such thing as a stupid question", posts which are judged by moderation to be made with the express intent to anger, upset or other wise piss off the regular posters of the thread will be treated as trolling.

Useful links to basic concepts will be added to this OP from time to time.

Finally, at page 400 (or there abouts) the OP will take nominations for the creator of the next thread. Up to 10 nominations will be accepted. Players will use the following format to nominate a player. You may not nominate yourself....because I said so

Kouralia wrote:
Code: Select all
[size=120]This is my Nomination.  There are many like it, but this one is mine.[/size]
[b]Nominee:[/b]


You must use this template to make a vote: if you don't, no one's going to bother trawling through pages when they can't search for your vote.


Beyond that, let the discussion begin.

Oh, and
Our Most Resplendent Goddess Sen wrote:by posting in this thread you concede that nuclear warfare is 100% normal and rational, amirite?
Last edited by Transnapastain on Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Kouralia
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Posts: 15069
Founded: Oct 30, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kouralia » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:46 am

first.

^_^
send doots
Islas Malvinas
The Times of Kurton - National News Source
Risen Britannia wrote:"England has been invaded at various points throughout its history. Fortunately, every invader mysteriously became English when they took over, thus leaving England undefeated."

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Allmann
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Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Allmann » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:47 am

How big should my military be if my population is 11 million and I am doing Switzerland-like/Finnish conscription?
Mind that I am landlocked and thus have no need for a Navy.

Also I was thinking, should perhaps paratroopers go under the air force instead of the army?

EDIT: Kouralia you thief.. 2nd then. :)
Last edited by Allmann on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Kouralia
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Posts: 15069
Founded: Oct 30, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kouralia » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:48 am

Allmann wrote:How big should my military be if my population is 11 million and I am doing Switzerland-like/Finnish conscription?
Mind that I am landlocked and thus have no need for a Navy.
I'd still recommend around the 1% mark.

Also I was thinking, should perhaps paratroopers go under the air force instead of the army?
I don't see any reason why or why not. I mean, it's not going to make a major difference what beret they wear, is it?

EDIT: Kouralia you thief.. 2nd then.
lrn2dwi

:D
send doots
Islas Malvinas
The Times of Kurton - National News Source
Risen Britannia wrote:"England has been invaded at various points throughout its history. Fortunately, every invader mysteriously became English when they took over, thus leaving England undefeated."

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Registug
Senator
 
Posts: 4792
Founded: Feb 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Registug » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:49 am

I'M SORRY GUYS
Call me Garshne

Astrayan

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The Akasha Colony
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14096
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:49 am

Allmann wrote:How big should my military be if my population is 11 million and I am doing Switzerland-like/Finnish conscription?
Mind that I am landlocked and thus have no need for a Navy.

Also I was thinking, should perhaps paratroopers go under the air force instead of the army?

EDIT: Kouralia you thief.. 2nd then.


A few hundred thousand at best. Switzerland's national service is universal, but its military service is not, particularly given declining fitness rates in most modern countries. The biggest impact a Swiss system will have is on the reserves, which will be large, but not quite as large as people like to claim in the media and elsewhere. Switzerland is perhaps the most abused example for everything militant in the world.
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
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Republic of Carthage (MT)
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National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
Storefronts: Carthaginian Naval Export Authority [MT, Navy]

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Allmann
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Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Allmann » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:57 am

Kouralia wrote:
Allmann wrote:How big should my military be if my population is 11 million and I am doing Switzerland-like/Finnish conscription?
Mind that I am landlocked and thus have no need for a Navy.
I'd still recommend around the 1% mark.

Also I was thinking, should perhaps paratroopers go under the air force instead of the army?
I don't see any reason why or why not. I mean, it's not going to make a major difference what beret they wear, is it?

EDIT: Kouralia you thief.. 2nd then.
lrn2dwi

:D


Wut iz lrn2dwi. I iz Könfused.
And pft berets we do not use berets.

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Allmann wrote:How big should my military be if my population is 11 million and I am doing Switzerland-like/Finnish conscription?
Mind that I am landlocked and thus have no need for a Navy.

Also I was thinking, should perhaps paratroopers go under the air force instead of the army?

EDIT: Kouralia you thief.. 2nd then.


A few hundred thousand at best. Switzerland's national service is universal, but its military service is not, particularly given declining fitness rates in most modern countries. The biggest impact a Swiss system will have is on the reserves, which will be large, but not quite as large as people like to claim in the media and elsewhere. Switzerland is perhaps the most abused example for everything militant in the world.


Affirmative, I was not thinking of having a 4 million strong military or anything.

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Immoren
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Founded: Mar 20, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:04 am

Allmann wrote:How big should my military be if my population is 11 million and I am doing Switzerland-like/Finnish conscription?
Mind that I am landlocked and thus have no need for a Navy.

Also I was thinking, should perhaps paratroopers go under the air force instead of the army?

EDIT: Kouralia you thief.. 2nd then. :)


Peacetime military or war mobilized? :P


Notamod: Tag posts are spam. :P
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
I ᴛʜɪɴᴋ I'ᴠᴇ ᴊᴜsᴛ ʜᴀᴅ ᴀ ɴᴇᴀʀ Aʀᴀʀᴀɢɪ ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴇɴᴄᴇ.
— Death. Probably.

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Moriskov
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Posts: 1822
Founded: Jun 08, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby Moriskov » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:09 am

Oh boy, new thread. QUICKLY EVERYONE INTO THE MAUS!
"Vengeance is like a ghost. It takes over every man it touches. It's thirst cannot be quenched, until the last man standing has fallen. You may be able to destroy me, but the beast will eventually come for you."
Vladimir Makarov
Osaea wrote:
Alowwvia wrote:And for every ATGM, there's a guy with a pistol that can kill him for much cheaper.


True. But can the guy with a pistol kill the tank? Only if he's Mattias Nilsson.

.............. \_▂▂▂████▄▄▂___
.........[█|||█████WOT PLAYER████]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▃▂
..__▂▄▅█████████████████████▄▃▂
I████Moriskov [1AR-R] - T-43 ██████████]
I████████████████████████████████]
◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲◤

Pronounced: Mor-skoj

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The Akasha Colony
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14096
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:20 am

Moriskov wrote:Oh boy, new thread. QUICKLY EVERYONE INTO THE MAUS!


You think too small. I've got a ride for this thread!
Image
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
New Terran Republic (FT)
Republic of Carthage (MT)
World Economic Union (MT)
Kaiserreich Europa Zentral (PT/MT)
Five Republics of Hanalua (FanT)
National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
Storefronts: Carthaginian Naval Export Authority [MT, Navy]

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Allmann
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Posts: 1820
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Allmann » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:22 am

Immoren wrote:
Allmann wrote:How big should my military be if my population is 11 million and I am doing Switzerland-like/Finnish conscription?
Mind that I am landlocked and thus have no need for a Navy.

Also I was thinking, should perhaps paratroopers go under the air force instead of the army?

EDIT: Kouralia you thief.. 2nd then. :)


Peacetime military or war mobilized? :P


Notamod: Tag posts are spam. :P


Hm.. peacetime and perhaps we could talk about war mobilized afterwards? From what I saw of the Finnish Defence Forces on wikipedia they got about 30 thousand active personnel with a 100 000ish ready.

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Immoren
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Founded: Mar 20, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:24 am

Allmann wrote:
Immoren wrote:
Peacetime military or war mobilized? :P


Notamod: Tag posts are spam. :P


Hm.. peacetime and perhaps we could talk about war mobilized afterwards? From what I saw of the Finnish Defence Forces on wikipedia they got about 30 thousand active personnel with a 100 000ish ready.


~30000 doing peacetime service
~200000-300000 after wartime mobilization has been done. At least on paper. :P

Edit:I must note number of peacetime servicemen is legacy of Paris Peace Treaty.
Last edited by Immoren on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
I ᴛʜɪɴᴋ I'ᴠᴇ ᴊᴜsᴛ ʜᴀᴅ ᴀ ɴᴇᴀʀ Aʀᴀʀᴀɢɪ ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴇɴᴄᴇ.
— Death. Probably.

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Moriskov
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Posts: 1822
Founded: Jun 08, 2008
Father Knows Best State

Postby Moriskov » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:58 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Moriskov wrote:Oh boy, new thread. QUICKLY EVERYONE INTO THE MAUS!


You think too small. I've got a ride for this thread!
Image

WHAT!? SWEET MOTHER OF ALL THINGS TASTY AND TOASTY, THAT THING IS MASSIVE! (That's what she said herherher)
"Vengeance is like a ghost. It takes over every man it touches. It's thirst cannot be quenched, until the last man standing has fallen. You may be able to destroy me, but the beast will eventually come for you."
Vladimir Makarov
Osaea wrote:
Alowwvia wrote:And for every ATGM, there's a guy with a pistol that can kill him for much cheaper.


True. But can the guy with a pistol kill the tank? Only if he's Mattias Nilsson.

.............. \_▂▂▂████▄▄▂___
.........[█|||█████WOT PLAYER████]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▃▂
..__▂▄▅█████████████████████▄▃▂
I████Moriskov [1AR-R] - T-43 ██████████]
I████████████████████████████████]
◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲◤

Pronounced: Mor-skoj

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Republica Newland
Minister
 
Posts: 2623
Founded: Oct 19, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Republica Newland » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Moriskov wrote:Oh boy, new thread. QUICKLY EVERYONE INTO THE MAUS!


You think too small. I've got a ride for this thread!
Image


That's a fucking landship.
F Scale: 2.9(3)
Economic Left/Right: 0.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.10
Aloha.
I play RL-concious. That's just how I roll. Deal with it.
GOODIES IN STOCK!!! - Republica Arms™ - SEARCH FOR TFLRN IN GLOBAL ECONOMICS&TRADE!

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Samozaryadnyastan
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Posts: 19987
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samozaryadnyastan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:30 am

The People's Standing Army forces (the PSA is the official name of the land army, yet is also used as a catch-all for the entire Samozniy military) are large, well-trained and highly-organised.
High motivation and compliance with conscription programmes (until the last few IC years) stems from a form of a continued cold-war environment within the region.

I've still not worked out what to properly cap my population at (a continuation of a fragmented post-Soviet Russia, following a civil war shortly after the collapse of the USSR's grip on Europe, prior to the formation of the CIS) so actual military numbers are not thought up as present.
Though the PSA forces land army closely follows the organisational layout of the Soviet Union's 1984 ORBAT, with a lot of unit names carried over as legacy (reversing the 1990 re-organisational shift), the Navy and Air Force have been completely overhauled. In ways I have no idea.

As such, the two major land units of the PSA remain as being the Motor Rifle Division, and the Tank Division.
These units are laid out as follows:
    Motor Rifle Division
    ~13500 men including 7500 infantry, ~1000 IFV/APC, ~220 MBT, 18 122mm Towed Howitzers, 12 152mm Towed Howitzers, 90 152mm SPG, 18 122mm MLRS, ~60 SPAA, plus support vehicles, helicopters
  • Motor Rifle Regiment (BTR)
    ~2500 men, ~320 BTR-110M2 (David LTD), 40 T-108M (HAV-2 King David), 18 D-30M1 122mm autoloaded howitzer
  • Motor Rifle Regiment (BTR)
    ~2500 men, ~320 BTR-110M2 (David LTD), 40 T-108M (HAV-2 King David), 12 D-20 Khitin 152mm howitzer,
  • Motor Rifle Regiment (BMP)
    ~2500 men, ~320 BMP-4M (David LTD, tracked), 40 T-108M2 (HAV-2 King David), 18 2S38 (BMP-4/M with 152mm gun)
  • Tank Regiment
    ~1200 men, 100 T-108MS (HAV-2 King David ILS), 18 2S38 (BMP-4/M with 152mm gun)
  • Artillery Regiment
    ~1300 men, 42 2S33 Msta-SM, 12 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV, 18 BM-21 122mm MLRS
  • Anti-Aircraft Regiment
    ~500 men, 18 HAV-3, ~40 as-yet-unknown SAM vehicles (analogous to SA-6), unknown MANPADS
  • Helicopter Squadron
    ~200 men, unknown numbers of HIND-X-3, Mi-8 variant, unknown light helicopters
  • Various Battalion and smaller other units, accommodating ~2500 personnel

    Tank Division
    ~11500 men, ~500 IFV/APC, ~340 MBT, 108 152mm SPG, 18 122mm MLRS, ~60 SPAA, plus support vehicles, helicopters
  • Tank Regiment
    ~1650 men, 100 T-108MS (HAV-2 King David ILS), ~60 BMP-4M (David LTD, tracked), 18 2S38 (BMP-4/M with 152mm gun)
  • Tank Regiment
    ~1650 men, 100 T-108MS (HAV-2 King David ILS), ~60 BMP-4M (David LTD, tracked), 18 2S38 (BMP-4/M with 152mm gun)
  • Tank Regiment
    ~1650 men, 100 T-108MS (HAV-2 King David ILS), ~60 BMP-4M (David LTD, tracked), 18 2S38 (BMP-4/M with 152mm gun)
  • Motor Rifle Regiment (BMP)
    ~2500 men, ~320 BMP-4M (David LTD, tracked), 40 T-108M2 (HAV-2 King David), 18 2S38 (BMP-4/M with 152mm gun)
  • Artillery Regiment
    ~1000 men, 30 2S33 Msta-SM, 6 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV, 18 BM-21 122mm MLRS
  • Anti-Aircraft Regiment
    ~500 men, 18 HAV-3, ~40 as-yet-unknown SAM vehicles (analogous to SA-6), unknown MANPADS
  • Helicopter Squadron
    ~200 men, unknown numbers of HIND-X-3, Mi-8 variant, unknown light helicopters
  • Various Battalion and smaller other units, accommodating ~2500 personnel


As you can plainly tell, these still need plenty of work.
Taken from:
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=2181340
Sapphire's WA Regional Delegate.
Call me Para.
In IC, I am to be referred to as The People's Republic of Samozniy Russia
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^ trufax
Samozniy foreign industry will one day return...
I unfortunately don't RP.
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Elan Valleys
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Postby Elan Valleys » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:41 am

Would using the Swedish Centurion upgrades from the 80's for reserve armoured forces be feasible?
Image
Last edited by Elan Valleys on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
I thought ten thousand swords must have leaped from their scabbards to avenge even a look that threatened her with insult. But the age of chivalry is gone. That of sophisters, economists, and calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished for ever.

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Immoren
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Immoren » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:41 am

Elan Valleys wrote:Would using the Swedish Centurion upgrades from the 80's for reserve armoured forces be feasible?
(]Image[/url])


Yes.
Last edited by Immoren on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
I ᴛʜɪɴᴋ I'ᴠᴇ ᴊᴜsᴛ ʜᴀᴅ ᴀ ɴᴇᴀʀ Aʀᴀʀᴀɢɪ ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴇɴᴄᴇ.
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Samozaryadnyastan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Samozaryadnyastan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:51 am

Elan Valleys wrote:Would using the Swedish Centurion upgrades from the 80's for reserve armoured forces be feasible?
([url=NEIN]Image[/url])

Chrome is giving me "web page not available" and malwarebytes is giving me "harmful connection blocked".
Last edited by Samozaryadnyastan on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sapphire's WA Regional Delegate.
Call me Para.
In IC, I am to be referred to as The People's Republic of Samozniy Russia
Malgrave wrote:You are secretly Vladimir Putin using this forum to promote Russian weapons and tracking down and killing those who oppose you.
^ trufax
Samozniy foreign industry will one day return...
I unfortunately don't RP.
Puppets: The Federal Republic of the Samozniy Space Corps (PMT) and The Indomitable Orthodox Empire of Imperializt Russia (PT).
Take the Furry Test today!

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Elan Valleys
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Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Elan Valleys » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:56 am

Changed.
I thought ten thousand swords must have leaped from their scabbards to avenge even a look that threatened her with insult. But the age of chivalry is gone. That of sophisters, economists, and calculators has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished for ever.

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Samozaryadnyastan
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Posts: 19987
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samozaryadnyastan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:02 am

Elan Valleys wrote:Would using the Swedish Centurion upgrades from the 80's for reserve armoured forces be feasible?
(Image)

You'd get no style points, but certainly cool points from Centurion + Sverige :3
Sapphire's WA Regional Delegate.
Call me Para.
In IC, I am to be referred to as The People's Republic of Samozniy Russia
Malgrave wrote:You are secretly Vladimir Putin using this forum to promote Russian weapons and tracking down and killing those who oppose you.
^ trufax
Samozniy foreign industry will one day return...
I unfortunately don't RP.
Puppets: The Federal Republic of the Samozniy Space Corps (PMT) and The Indomitable Orthodox Empire of Imperializt Russia (PT).
Take the Furry Test today!

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Jagalonia
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Founded: Jun 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jagalonia » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:24 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Moriskov wrote:Oh boy, new thread. QUICKLY EVERYONE INTO THE MAUS!


You think too small. I've got a ride for this thread!
Image

Please tell me that's on rails.....
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
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Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
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Unsigable. >.>
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All tech.

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Yes Im Biop
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Posts: 14942
Founded: Feb 29, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yes Im Biop » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:40 am

Scaile, Proud, Dangerous
Ambassador
Posts: 1653
Founded: Jul 01, 2011
[violet] wrote:Urggg... trawling through ads looking for roman orgies...

Idaho Conservatives wrote:FST creates a half-assed thread, goes on his same old feminist rant, and it turns into a thirty page dogpile in under twenty four hours. Just another day on NSG.

Immoren wrote:Saphirasia and his ICBCPs (inter continental ballistic cattle prod)
Yes, I Am infact Biop.


Rest in Peace Riley. Biopan Embassy Non Military Realism Thread
Seeya 1K Cat's Miss ya man. Well, That Esclated Quickly

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Transnapastain
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Posts: 12241
Founded: Antiquity
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Transnapastain » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:44 am



No, they aren't. You're lucky I didn't see that previously or I'd have locked it then. No warning since you had already posted it (even though you shouldn't have) Do not repost
Last edited by Transnapastain on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yes Im Biop
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Founded: Feb 29, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yes Im Biop » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:44 am

Transnapastain wrote:


No, they aren't. You're lucky I didn't see that previously or I'd have locked it then.


...I hate you Tras :shock:


Can i file for Corruption? I remember Paying Trans for letting me get the 3rd Thread XD. Aw well. I'll win one of these times.
Last edited by Yes Im Biop on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scaile, Proud, Dangerous
Ambassador
Posts: 1653
Founded: Jul 01, 2011
[violet] wrote:Urggg... trawling through ads looking for roman orgies...

Idaho Conservatives wrote:FST creates a half-assed thread, goes on his same old feminist rant, and it turns into a thirty page dogpile in under twenty four hours. Just another day on NSG.

Immoren wrote:Saphirasia and his ICBCPs (inter continental ballistic cattle prod)
Yes, I Am infact Biop.


Rest in Peace Riley. Biopan Embassy Non Military Realism Thread
Seeya 1K Cat's Miss ya man. Well, That Esclated Quickly

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Transnapastain
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 12241
Founded: Antiquity
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Transnapastain » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:47 am

Yes Im Biop wrote:
Transnapastain wrote:
No, they aren't. You're lucky I didn't see that previously or I'd have locked it then.


...I hate you Tras :shock:


Take a number. :-P

At the end of this one, they'll be voting like there was in the weapons thread. Get someone to nominate you and the OP (and all the meaninglessness there of) could be yours.

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