Main Military Weapon of your Country: Pattern VIII (Read OP)

[Estainia]

You guys seem to be the come-to-authority on this sort of thing.

I need a rifle (and sorted equipment) for my special operations unit (so dubbed conquistadors but that's irrelevant). My nation is currently "Westernizing" equipment wise but I figure until at least 2030 (it's 2018 now ICly) I'll retain a certain East > West in my inventory.

Suggestions please? I ask because I heard Russia/USSR made this AR that is pretty much practically silent.

Might you be speaking of glorious AK-9? Part of the reason for its silence is the fact that it is chambered in 9x39mm which is a subsonic round; which also implies no sonic boom.

Alexei Dragunov, one of the designers of AK-9, says "It shoots virtually without a sound and it can go through a bullet-proof vest".

It has a quick-detach silencer designed for it, and far as I know 9x39mm has good penetrative capabilities up to 200m+ and remains a modicum of effectiveness out to 400m or so. Also 9x39mm is very lethal with its violent yawing.

The AS-VAL I believe it was called.

[San-Silvacian]

Might you be speaking of glorious AK-9? Part of the reason for its silence is the fact that it is chambered in 9x39mm which is a subsonic round; which also implies no sonic boom.



It has a quick-detach silencer designed for it, and far as I know 9x39mm has good penetrative capabilities up to 200m+ and remains a modicum of effectiveness out to 400m or so. Also 9x39mm is very lethal with its violent yawing.

The AS-VAL I believe it was called.

AS VAL is integrated sniper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSK-94
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9A-91

Detachable suppressors.

[GMC Military Arms]

Bah! *waves hand angrily*

Ok,here is my revised equipment setup.

Militia, auxiliary: Mosin Nagant AM-17u

Main infantry: AK 74 (preferably without a stock, cuz I'm cool like that ;-) AM-17

Support roles: RPK 74 and the SVD. RPM-17

Maybe I'll change the RPK to the RPD. Convince me.

Where do you put your other hand? Looks like you'd end up with at least one finger on the barrel. Does it come with a free akimbo attachment

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Where do you put your other hand? Looks like you'd end up with at least one finger on the barrel. Does it come with a free akimbo attachment

In ze order given:

•See that little smidge of a handguard on the front? In theory, you either hold that, or buy a small vertical grip.
Needles to say, this is a gun meant to be used by the Japanese.

•I should sincerely hope not.
Well, I hope the operator's gloves are insulated.

•Only with select Premium AM-17u models.

[GMC Military Arms]

•See that little smidge of a handguard on the front? In theory, you either hold that, or buy a small vertical grip.
Needles to say, this is a gun meant to be used by the Japanese.

Being a little more sensible, I'd imagine at least the long-barrel versions would lengthen out the handguard; it's ok for a shorty carbine, but you'd want a little more space to grip if you're trying to shoot accurately. Also I doubt you'd be able to securely attach an underbarrel weapon with a rail that short.

Also also your flash hider is offset upwards from the line of the barrel on the two long-barrel versions.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

•See that little smidge of a handguard on the front? In theory, you either hold that, or buy a small vertical grip.
Needles to say, this is a gun meant to be used by the Japanese.

Being a little more sensible, I'd imagine at least the long-barrel versions would lengthen out the handguard; it's ok for a shorty carbine, but you'd want a little more space to grip if you're trying to shoot accurately. Also I doubt you'd be able to securely attach an underbarrel weapon with a rail that short.

Also also your flash hider is offset upwards from the line of the barrel on the two long-barrel versions.

Meh.

•I'm sure the longer barreled versions could stand to have their handguards lengthened. However, that would
a) Ruin the Steyr AUG "LEGO Gun" aesthetic I'm going for.
b) Require an extensive redesign of the front end of the rifle, the likes of which I am currently unwilling to do.

•The only under barrel weapon we use is a domestic variant of the GP-30,which is built into the lower receiver on select models.

•I'm sure it is. These are the older versions of the AM-17, from back when it was still the G17.

These are slightly more up-to-date, although not by too very much. I could have sworn I had a far more recent version floating around, but it seems I've deleted it.

Assumably at some point I'll enlarge the trigger guard, so as to serve as something similar to a front grip. I might also try adding a pseudo handguard and bipod to the LSW, similar to the ones found on the L86. All that and (pause for suspense) AKS-74u style sights!

[Nua Corda]

Being a little more sensible, I'd imagine at least the long-barrel versions would lengthen out the handguard; it's ok for a shorty carbine, but you'd want a little more space to grip if you're trying to shoot accurately. Also I doubt you'd be able to securely attach an underbarrel weapon with a rail that short.

Also also your flash hider is offset upwards from the line of the barrel on the two long-barrel versions.

Meh.

•I'm sure the longer barreled versions could stand to have their handguards lengthened. However, that would
a) Ruin the Steyr AUG "LEGO Gun" aesthetic I'm going for.
b) Require an extensive redesign of the front end of the rifle, the likes of which I am currently unwilling to do.

•The only under barrel weapon we use is a domestic variant of the GP-30,which is built into the lower receiver on select models.

•I'm sure it is. These are the older versions of the AM-17, from back when it was still the G17.
These are slightly more up-to-date, although not by too very much. I could have sworn I had a far more recent version floating around my flickr, but it seems I deleted it.

To be honest, your LOP looks very uncomfortable...

A good rule of thumb is to have the butt terminate at least two, and at most three, pistol-grip-lengths from the pistol grip. Yours is like 4 and a half.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

To be honest, your LOP looks very uncomfortable...

A good rule of thumb is to have the butt terminate at least two, and at most three, pistol-grip-lengths from the pistol grip. Yours is like 4 and a half.

It must be the scale... or a tiny pistol grip, because the whole rifle is only 52.5cm.

[Ulfr-Reich]

C'mon dude, just a hair longer on the rail/forward grip, so as to appease the Battle-Rifle fanatic within some of us.

[Roskraina]

The international community might not approve of this, but my country got a great idea about what to do with the menthal hospital patients if war comes. If we get invaded we will release them and arm them. They are not the best warriors, but they are likely to cause rather a lot of confusion

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Bam! Incremental improvements.
•Reduction of LOP
•Lengthening of handguard
•Addition of M4 for comparison
•Not a hell of a lot else
•And so much more!

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Oh... for a second I thought you were traveling back to prehistory and armed the first tribe you found with automatic weapons for the lulz.

I know I would.

There was a somewhat similar book where some guy went back in time and gave the Confederate Army AKs.

SPOILER

They still lose.

If someone goes back in time and gives your army AKs against muskets and you still lose, it's maybe indicative that your cause isn't worth fighting.

There was a somewhat similar book where some guy went back in time and gave the Confederate Army AKs.

SPOILER

They still lose.

Good book.

That Lupara is hawt.

Isn't the RPG-7 massively outdated for its intended role at this point?

It's a smoothbore launcher. I don't think it's possible for such a weapon to be strictly outdated. The warhead and its propulsion system would be far more critical components of the system. As such, why warheads development for the RPG-7 has been and still is going on today.

Standard issue. L85 A2.
Machine gunner support troops. M240B.
Snipers. M98B.
Standard sidearm. Glock G18.

If you're using the L85, it might be an idea to call your MG the L7 (the British designation of the FN MAG).

In any case, I don't think my question ever got answered.

How light can I make a 7.62mm bullet before it gets stupid?


Go go Bookers!

Assuming a high form factor projectile? Probably around 100gr. Personally, i'd consider anything below 120gr too light for a rifle round.

I think there were some 7.62 NATO variants with 75gr loadings. I think they were some kind of training round though, that is lollight. 5.56 and 5.45 are only like 60-70gr, after all.

Christ, this is rather funny.
The guy comes here to discuss his MMW, and ends up with two of the best guns designers on NS, and my mediocre ass, trying to push our products on him.

If it wasn't seven hours too late, I'd be getting in on this too

Carl Gustav good for squad-level deployment, or is it too heavy and best for platoon or company level use?

British forces (at least the SAS) figured that a reloadable recoilless rifle was too heavy and complex a weapon.
I personally disagree, though not sure about a recoilless rifle. I'd prefer a rocket-based weapon, like the RPG-7.

Is an RPG-7 any better in terms of weight? Or is a disposable launcher like the LAW really the only way to go for a squad/platoon heavy weapon?

SNAP! GUNPORN:
(Image)

The difference between a reloadable launcher and disposable launcher is that obviously, you have to balance carrying additional launchers versus just additional ammunition. M72 is a lightweight launcher, but it's not very flexible as a system. If you want different rounds, you have to carry different launchers, rather than just a smattering of different RPG rounds.

Are you saying Puzikas skullfucked Hitler, and thus the glorious Red Army earned its victory in the Great Patriotic War?

I had brutal intercourse with a German girl once in a Moscow club bathroom, but thats' not a story for here.

Full Russian...

[GMC Military Arms]

If someone goes back in time and gives your army AKs against muskets and you still lose, it's maybe indicative that your cause isn't worth fighting.

Well, considering at the time having an "aim" step in the order of fire was a radical departure from traditional doctrine (seriously, it was) it would depend on whether they actually figured out how to use them effectively.

[Allanea]

Thinking out loud.

Remember that even at that time, when peopple just fired their guns in volleys, they managed to get at least some of their fellow men killed - I can't imagine that if we replaced the volley step with 'let's all point our AKs at the enemy and fire a burst of automatic fire until the magazine runs dry' - possibly the least effective way to use a Kalashnikov rifle I can imagine - it would be less effective than a musket.

Imagine here a fictional 18th-century infantryman. He is not trained to aim his Kalashnikov rifle. He is trained only to shoot it and reload it (that is, to carry out the same steps with his AKM as he knows to do with his smoothbarreled, muzzle-loading flintlock). On our mark, our intrepid hero raises his AKM to his shoulder, points it in the vague direction of his enemy (who are arranged in a single infantry square), and simply pulls the trigger (assume for simplicity that the rifle is issued with the selector welded in the automatic-fire position). Our intrepid hero fires 30 shots in 3 seconds, and then either reloads his rifle or charges into a bayonet fight.

Here's the problem: the Kalashnikov is an inferior bayonet platform as compared to period muskets. It would probably be better - in this fantastic scenario - to just keep reloading and firing as the enemy's troops try to get into bayonet range (you could reload and fire at least once a minute, and you're going to be exponentially more effective than your musket-bearing friends at this - in a universe where you still don't know what you're doing).

But if the enemy infantry get into the range where you're basically fighting with pointy sticks - which is how a lot of contemporary infantry combat was resolved, then it's all going pearshaped for you.

On the other hand, SOME continental armies preferred to stand and fire several volleys with their muskets. Ironically, they'd be worse screwed.

[Allanea]

If someone goes back in time and gives your army AKs against muskets and you still lose, it's maybe indicative that your cause isn't worth fighting.

Well, considering at the time having an "aim" step in the order of fire was a radical departure from traditional doctrine (seriously, it was) it would depend on whether they actually figured out how to use them effectively.

I apologize. Are we talking about the American civil war? I have missed that in my previous post. I thought it was about the 18th centruy forsom reason. I was confused by the mention of musket and having an 'aim' step being unusual.

I'm quite sure most Confederate soldiers were pretty decent shots with their guns early on in the war, an issue the North later covered for in improved infantry training. (I believe this is discussed in Fletcher Pratt's Ordeal By Fire, and/or Bruce Catton's Never Call Retreat. The age of unaimed volley-fire had already gone by that time. I'm quite sure a Southerner who could figure out aiming a contemporary rifle could aim an AKM.

[GMC Military Arms]

I apologize. Are we talking about the American civil war? I have missed that in my previous post. I thought it was about the 18th centruy forsom reason. I was confused by the mention of musket and having an 'aim' step being unusual.

The British military in the War of Independence 80 years earlier went straight from "ready arms" to "fire" without an aim step. Muskets had existed since the 14th century, so yes, traditional doctrine was not to bother aiming because your gun couldn't hit anything anyway. Given nobody was used to handheld self-loading weapons, they'd probably have no idea how to use them properly and you'd get a lot of firing until empty. And that would be when they weren't blowing up from yokels pouring gunpowder into the muzzle.

Also conventional wisdom of the time was "repeating guns noooo they bullets cost" so they'd probably order them all to be thrown away as an obvious enemy ploy to bankrupt the Confederacy with ammo bills.

[Triplebaconation]

Oh... for a second I thought you were traveling back to prehistory and armed the first tribe you found with automatic weapons for the lulz.

I know I would.

There was a somewhat similar book where some guy went back in time and gave the Confederate Army AKs.

SPOILER

They still lose.

I don't think you read the book.

[Puzikas]

I heard 9x39.

The AS VAL is a supressed special purpose carbine. The VSS is a suppressed Special purpose sniper rifle. Both are damn near totally quiet. The AK-9 is also extremely quiet, to the point where what you hear mostly is the bolt.

None of these guns are "safe" to fire without the suppressors on. The soft tissue damage I went over last thread, but if you want I shall go over again.

Edit: Smartphone, so that entire thing was screwed up..

[Allanea]

[
The British military in the War of Independence 80 years earlier went straight from "ready arms" to "fire" without an aim step.

Actually there was a "level arms" step. But this is a bit irrelevant, because 80 years later, the issue weapons of both sides were rifled muskets, which were far more effective then the muskets of the 18th century. These used anaerodynamic bullet pretty similar to those used today, not a round ball as fired in the 18th century.

Also conventional wisdom of the time was "repeating guns noooo they bullets cost" so they'd probably order them all to be thrown away as an obvious enemy ploy to bankrupt the Confederacy with ammo bills.

By the same Jeff Davis whose bodyguard was armed with repeating rifles?

Are we just hucking hundreds of AKMs through the time portal while shouting YEEE-HAW without any explanation as for what they're meant to do?

[Spirit of Hope]

As I posted earlier I think I know what book is being talked about here (The Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove) and the guns aren't just chucked back in time, a group of people comes back in time with them.

The changes this makes are relatively realistically portrayed, the confederate soldiers are trained to fire in semi-auto, and they disperse their formations because of the increased rate of fire. One of the noted advantages that the AK's provide is the ability to shoot on the move, something impossible with a muzzle loader. This causes greatly increased tactical mobility when compared to the Union Army.

Notably the Confederacy still comes close to lousing the war because they still have vastly less men, and a much weaker supply chain. Plus shortly after the war the Union starts manufacturing their own AK knock offs, their noted to be much crowder and heavier but still vastly superior to muzzle loading rifles.

[Allanea]

Yeah, the book has a whole worldbuilding process going into it. I think we're just discussing the notion of sending modern weapons back in the past in general.

[East Jordan II]

Presently the East Jordanian military use the M16 family of infantry weapons, to include several variants of the M16 itself, as well as the M4 carbine, and limited use of the M8 rifle. Presently, the national War Department is conducting tests to determine a suitable replacement for this long-serving family of rifles.

[Coltarin]

Presently the East Jordanian military use the M16 family of infantry weapons, to include several variants of the M16 itself, as well as the M4 carbine, and limited use of the M8 rifle. Presently, the national War Department is conducting tests to determine a suitable replacement for this long-serving family of rifles.

http://i.imgur.com/BzFtcLD.png

[East Jordan II]

http://i.imgur.com/BzFtcLD.png

If you wish to suggest a possible replacement, please submit all pertinent data concerning the weapon platform in question to the War Department's Bureau of Test Management.

(OOC: In other words, you got any stats for that rifle? )

[Ulfr-Reich]

Presently the East Jordanian military use the M16 family of infantry weapons, to include several variants of the M16 itself, as well as the M4 carbine, and limited use of the M8 rifle. Presently, the national War Department is conducting tests to determine a suitable replacement for this long-serving family of rifles.

A suitable replacement that'll put some hair on yer' chest.

With a tradition of innovation, modification and efficient application of designs, theories and technological advancements, the Ulfranes Haer's Quartermaster's Guild has not only succeeded in upgradding the GEV-1955T service rifle, it designed a larger capacity magazine, a far-more efficient flash-hider/compensator, a modular sling attachment rig and even altered the method of mounting the "skull-cracker" plate mounted on the stock.

Name: GEV-1958T

Cartridge: 10.93x51mm

Magazine Capacity: 35

Action: Tilting-Bolt, Gas-Operated/Blish-Lock; Select Fire (Semi-Auto, Fully Automatic)

Rate of Fire: 565 rounds/min

Muzzle Velocity: 2,235 f/s

Sights: Regnulf BR-Sights