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Radicchio
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1303
Founded: Oct 20, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Radicchio » Thu May 14, 2015 10:58 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Radicchio wrote:This vehicle was something i added after a recent RP in my region. Most of my naval command structure was overrun, occupied or destroyed and the surface fleet was engaged. after the RP was over, i developed a small "sleeper" navy including these and a number of small missile boats as a sort of last line of defense for future RPs.
I feel that it is an appropriate solution.


To hide ineffective deathtraps in your ports where you have completely surrendered any ability to concentrate your force? The enemy will be able to figure out you have them relatively easily. After that it's a cakewalk since they are hideously vulnerable.

It is actually an image stolen from captain america, but because the movie never says what the mini-sub's capabilities are, i figure it is atleast reasonable to assume that it could operate short distances from the shore with a single torpedo.
EDIT:
And the capabilities of such a craft are well within the guidelines of something that can be built right now (or even 50 years ago) if a nation had the need to develop them, which i feel that i do.


It will be hilariously noisy and slow. No matter how "stealthy" the "attack stealth torpedo" is, it's hard to get around the fact that this design is about as unstealthy as you can get. There's a reason why actual midget submarines look like, well, submarines and not jet fighters.

New Oyashima wrote:All in all though, the USN was REALLY lucky that they cought the carriers rearming, and that the "rolling convergence" tactic that lost them a CV in coral sea didn't bite them in the ass. The IJN was unlicky, the USN was lucky. Not to mention CAP from the IJN carriers was drawn away chasing Torpedo bombers.


The IJN fought the battle conservatively because they felt they had a larger margin of superiority than they actually had, and as the superior power had more to lose from the battle than the US did. They held on to larger reserves than necessary and wasted valuable opportunities attempting to build the "perfect" strike group. In comparison, Fletcher decided to attack immediately when the opportunity presented itself, even if it meant reliance on more inexperienced crews. Fletcher knew the Japanese would be dispersed while the Japanese knew nothing of his own disposition.

It was simple probability: the Americans attacked more often, which of course sharply increased the likelihood of catching the enemy in a vulnerable position. It also kept them off balance even when the early strikes failed to score any hits. The Americans attacked the Japanese nine times. The Japanese only managed two attacks on the American carriers, both against the already-damaged Yorktown, and only after the American planes had retreated and left the Japanese with some time to lick their wounds. Despite being the attacker, the Americans forced the Japanese to remain on the defensive for almost the entire battle, snatching away the initiative.

The Japanese had insufficient reconnaissance assets (a recurring problem of their reliance on cruiser-based floatplanes for the task) and wasted resources attacking Midway unsuccessfully (the only "aircraft carrier" in the battle that could not be sunk no matter how many times it was attacked). That they were busy refueling aircraft when they were caught is not surprising, and the large quantity of ordnance and fuel stocked by carriers would be a recurring vulnerability in later battles as well.



Haters gonna hate.




I intend to bulk up this "Sleeper Navy" over time but i am also working on ground based anti-shipping options.

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The Akasha Colony
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Posts: 14157
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Thu May 14, 2015 11:00 am

Radicchio wrote:Haters gonna hate.




I intend to bulk up this "Sleeper Navy" over time but i am also working on ground based anti-shipping options.


I hope "being effective" isn't one of the things that's involved in this plan, because it won't get there.
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The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
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Radicchio
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Posts: 1303
Founded: Oct 20, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Radicchio » Thu May 14, 2015 11:07 am

I hope being rude was on your list of "things to do" when you woke up thismorning because you are totally nailing it.

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The Soodean Imperium
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Posts: 4859
Founded: May 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Soodean Imperium » Thu May 14, 2015 11:10 am

Radicchio wrote:I hope being rude was on your list of "things to do" when you woke up thismorning because you are totally nailing it.

You posted a bad idea on a realism thread, and someone else took the time to explain the problems with it. I hate to be "that person," but that's... sort of what the realism threads are for.

Your best course of action in this scenario is to follow Akasha's advice and look into some real midget submarines. We've all had "that looks cool, I want one" moments, but generally speaking Cobra Command gear is designed for pure aesthetics, not functionality.
Last edited by The Soodean Imperium on Thu May 14, 2015 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"In short, when we hastily attribute to aesthetic and inherited faculties the artistic nature of Athenian civilization, we are almost proceeding as did men in the Middle Ages, when fire was explained by phlogiston and the effects of opium by its soporific powers." --Emile Durkheim, 1895
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ICly, this nation is now known as the Socialist Republic of Menghe (대멩 사회주의 궁화국, 大孟社會主義共和國). You can still call me Soode in OOC.

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The Akasha Colony
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Posts: 14157
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Thu May 14, 2015 11:13 am

Radicchio wrote:I hope being rude was on your list of "things to do" when you woke up thismorning because you are totally nailing it.


Because I pointed out, like others have, that it's a silly idea?

I obviously can't stop you from doing whatever you want, but if you're concerned about fending off an enemy fleet, perhaps the money would be better spent in more capable and useful assets instead? Like maritime patrol aircraft, or conventional surface or submarine assets? Or even a series of torpedo mines. When you posted it here, you consented to the possibility of getting a response you don't agree with.
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
New Terran Republic (FT)
Republic of Carthage (MT)
World Economic Union (MT)
Kaiserreich Europa Zentral (PT/MT)
Five Republics of Hanalua (FanT)
National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
Storefronts: Carthaginian Naval Export Authority [MT, Navy]

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Radicchio
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Posts: 1303
Founded: Oct 20, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Radicchio » Thu May 14, 2015 11:19 am

no, because others pointed it out constructively and you were snarky and rude about it.
It is an attitude problem, not a content problem. have fun with that.

I am out for the day, i refuse to poke the trolls.
Last edited by Radicchio on Thu May 14, 2015 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yuketobaniac
Diplomat
 
Posts: 649
Founded: May 28, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Yuketobaniac » Thu May 14, 2015 11:21 am

Vancon wrote:
Yukonastan wrote:(Image)


Can we take all the containers off and put a fuckton of missiles on instead?

Sounds good 8)
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nope T-14 it'll prove to be a piece of junk, stick with the T-90 and T-72 and upgrade those to be better hellfire targets XDXDXD

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The Akasha Colony
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Posts: 14157
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Thu May 14, 2015 11:23 am

Radicchio wrote:no, because others pointed it out constructively and you were snarky and rude about it.
It is an attitude problem, not a content problem. have fun with that.

I am out for the day, i refuse to poke the trolls.


Oh right. Jabs about Cobra Commander and Captain America are constructive. Pointing out the actual issues and shortcomings with the design from a performance perspective relative to its intended role is rude. Silly me for mistaking the two.
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
New Terran Republic (FT)
Republic of Carthage (MT)
World Economic Union (MT)
Kaiserreich Europa Zentral (PT/MT)
Five Republics of Hanalua (FanT)
National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
Storefronts: Carthaginian Naval Export Authority [MT, Navy]


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United Marxist Nations
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33804
Founded: Dec 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby United Marxist Nations » Thu May 14, 2015 11:55 am

Radicchio wrote:no, because others pointed it out constructively and you were snarky and rude about it.
It is an attitude problem, not a content problem. have fun with that.

I am out for the day, i refuse to poke the trolls.

In all fairness, when you present a silly idea, others point out the flaws in it, and you respond with "haters gonna hate", you're kind of inviting the snark. I mean, I've presented some silly ideas too, but there must be a way to justify it, and there really seems to be none here.

EDIT: Also, trollnaming (especially against someone who is not trolling) is a good deal more rude than anything anyone said.
Last edited by United Marxist Nations on Thu May 14, 2015 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

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Unified Imperial States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 673
Founded: May 31, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Unified Imperial States » Thu May 14, 2015 11:59 am

Very large, heavily armed, heavily armored, high tech weapons etc.

Have mostly abandoned it in favor of interstellar capital weaponry, but I keep it around for those times when I involve myself in MT groups and I don't feel like pretending I'm a different nation.
Always use my Factbooks for relevant forum information on my nation. I didn't write them for nothing.

My nation is currently at DEFCON: 1/2/3/4/5 |Normal readiness|

We Hold the following nations as protectorates: United Lizalfos Clans

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Sevvania
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6891
Founded: Nov 12, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sevvania » Thu May 14, 2015 12:00 pm

Korva wrote:
Mitheldalond wrote:That is a container ship. Last I checked, container ships weren't considered warships.

whatever nerds

This is amazing please make more
"Humble thyself and hold thy tongue."

Current Era: 1945
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Unified Imperial States
Diplomat
 
Posts: 673
Founded: May 31, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Unified Imperial States » Thu May 14, 2015 12:06 pm

Korva wrote:
Sevvania wrote:This is amazing please make more

I didn't really make any of it, just butchered existing drawings by Darth Panda and ALVAMA.


No offense intended, but butchered seems to be an understatement in this case. It kind of hurt to look at that :p
Always use my Factbooks for relevant forum information on my nation. I didn't write them for nothing.

My nation is currently at DEFCON: 1/2/3/4/5 |Normal readiness|

We Hold the following nations as protectorates: United Lizalfos Clans

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Aznazia
Minister
 
Posts: 2312
Founded: Feb 18, 2013
New York Times Democracy

Postby Aznazia » Thu May 14, 2015 12:11 pm

Unified Imperial States wrote:
Korva wrote:I didn't really make any of it, just butchered existing drawings by Darth Panda and ALVAMA.


No offense intended, but butchered seems to be an understatement in this case. It kind of hurt to look at that :p


Well at the end of the day this is how most people on Shipbucket view NSer's.

http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... =15&t=4582
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Peace Time: 450,000 total

Breakdown by branch (peace time):
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Population: 98.362 Million
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Sevvania
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6891
Founded: Nov 12, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sevvania » Thu May 14, 2015 12:11 pm

Korva wrote:
Sevvania wrote:This is amazing please make more

I didn't really make any of it, just butchered existing drawings by Darth Panda and ALVAMA.

In any case, it's the type of lulzy kitbash that pleases me.
"Humble thyself and hold thy tongue."

Current Era: 1945
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The Soodean Imperium
Senator
 
Posts: 4859
Founded: May 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Soodean Imperium » Thu May 14, 2015 12:32 pm

Aznazia wrote:
Unified Imperial States wrote:
No offense intended, but butchered seems to be an understatement in this case. It kind of hurt to look at that :p


Well at the end of the day this is how most people on Shipbucket view NSer's.

Eh. Sometimes I feel bad that Shipbucket lumps in the few good shipmakers on NationStates with the "lololol copy-paste turrets and vls cells on every inch of open space on a dreadnought" crowd. But then again, even over here "NS" is used as a prefix for anything woefully oversized and impractical, so I guess the site is beyond saving.

Aznazia wrote:http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4582

The secondary VLS (Mk 41 size) is rather like the US Navy's Mk 26 GMLS, being configured as a chain-feed system. Individual cells are hydraulically jacked into the launch position outboard, as indicated in this cartoon.


:blink:

YUKO

WAS

RIGHT
Last harmonized by Hu Jintao on Sat Mar 4, 2006 2:33pm, harmonized 8 times in total.


"In short, when we hastily attribute to aesthetic and inherited faculties the artistic nature of Athenian civilization, we are almost proceeding as did men in the Middle Ages, when fire was explained by phlogiston and the effects of opium by its soporific powers." --Emile Durkheim, 1895
Come join Septentrion!
ICly, this nation is now known as the Socialist Republic of Menghe (대멩 사회주의 궁화국, 大孟社會主義共和國). You can still call me Soode in OOC.

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Grays Harbor
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Posts: 18566
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Grays Harbor » Thu May 14, 2015 4:11 pm

Radicchio wrote:no, because others pointed it out constructively and you were snarky and rude about it.
It is an attitude problem, not a content problem. have fun with that.

I am out for the day, i refuse to poke the trolls.

Troll? Yeah, Except for the fact that he is probably (next to me) the most knowledgeable on naval history and tactics here, and i rank myself higher only because i have been studying it for 50 years.
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

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Valdiu
Minister
 
Posts: 2136
Founded: Jun 25, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Valdiu » Thu May 14, 2015 4:30 pm

Valdiu wrote:Would submarine aircraft carriers, each carrying one VTOL aircraft (or a helicopter) be feasible in today's navies? I'm thinking of having them in lieu of a nuclear armament in a "logistic submarine" class I'm dreaming up. What about a launch bay for a midget sub?

What about an older missile submarine converted to have an exceptionally flat "landing pad" faired into the hull and a hangar too? And if I bumped the number down to two "technology demonstrators" whose production class was not produced but the two prototypes are operational?
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Spirit of Hope
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Posts: 12103
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Spirit of Hope » Thu May 14, 2015 4:42 pm

Valdiu wrote:
Valdiu wrote:Would submarine aircraft carriers, each carrying one VTOL aircraft (or a helicopter) be feasible in today's navies? I'm thinking of having them in lieu of a nuclear armament in a "logistic submarine" class I'm dreaming up. What about a launch bay for a midget sub?

What about an older missile submarine converted to have an exceptionally flat "landing pad" faired into the hull and a hangar too? And if I bumped the number down to two "technology demonstrators" whose production class was not produced but the two prototypes are operational?

Still not a good idea.

Why do you want a pane carrying submarine?

By making it "flatter" you damage the subs ability to hide, the sub will be increasingly noisy in the water making it easy to spot. So you loose the big bonus of using a submarine, stealth.

Submarines are also unstable on the surface. They won't sink, but they aren't going to be a good platform to land or take a plane off of. Likely only in the calmest weather would flight operations be possible, loosing you the great advantage of the carrier the ability to launch planes under most conditions.
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New Oyashima
Minister
 
Posts: 2267
Founded: Oct 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby New Oyashima » Thu May 14, 2015 4:49 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Radicchio wrote:This vehicle was something i added after a recent RP in my region. Most of my naval command structure was overrun, occupied or destroyed and the surface fleet was engaged. after the RP was over, i developed a small "sleeper" navy including these and a number of small missile boats as a sort of last line of defense for future RPs.
I feel that it is an appropriate solution.


To hide ineffective deathtraps in your ports where you have completely surrendered any ability to concentrate your force? The enemy will be able to figure out you have them relatively easily. After that it's a cakewalk since they are hideously vulnerable.

It is actually an image stolen from captain america, but because the movie never says what the mini-sub's capabilities are, i figure it is atleast reasonable to assume that it could operate short distances from the shore with a single torpedo.
EDIT:
And the capabilities of such a craft are well within the guidelines of something that can be built right now (or even 50 years ago) if a nation had the need to develop them, which i feel that i do.


It will be hilariously noisy and slow. No matter how "stealthy" the "attack stealth torpedo" is, it's hard to get around the fact that this design is about as unstealthy as you can get. There's a reason why actual midget submarines look like, well, submarines and not jet fighters.

New Oyashima wrote:All in all though, the USN was REALLY lucky that they cought the carriers rearming, and that the "rolling convergence" tactic that lost them a CV in coral sea didn't bite them in the ass. The IJN was unlicky, the USN was lucky. Not to mention CAP from the IJN carriers was drawn away chasing Torpedo bombers.


The IJN fought the battle conservatively because they felt they had a larger margin of superiority than they actually had, and as the superior power had more to lose from the battle than the US did. They held on to larger reserves than necessary and wasted valuable opportunities attempting to build the "perfect" strike group. In comparison, Fletcher decided to attack immediately when the opportunity presented itself, even if it meant reliance on more inexperienced crews. Fletcher knew the Japanese would be dispersed while the Japanese knew nothing of his own disposition.

It was simple probability: the Americans attacked more often, which of course sharply increased the likelihood of catching the enemy in a vulnerable position. It also kept them off balance even when the early strikes failed to score any hits. The Americans attacked the Japanese nine times. The Japanese only managed two attacks on the American carriers, both against the already-damaged Yorktown, and only after the American planes had retreated and left the Japanese with some time to lick their wounds. Despite being the attacker, the Americans forced the Japanese to remain on the defensive for almost the entire battle, snatching away the initiative.

The Japanese had insufficient reconnaissance assets (a recurring problem of their reliance on cruiser-based floatplanes for the task) and wasted resources attacking Midway unsuccessfully (the only "aircraft carrier" in the battle that could not be sunk no matter how many times it was attacked). That they were busy refueling aircraft when they were caught is not surprising, and the large quantity of ordnance and fuel stocked by carriers would be a recurring vulnerability in later battles as well.

> Imply baka gaijin amerfat can outsmart Glorious Nippon.

USN won because the Lexington class is beautiful.

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Billugslovakc
Attaché
 
Posts: 93
Founded: Mar 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Billugslovakc » Thu May 14, 2015 4:56 pm

BSN Norristromo

A Billugslovakc-class battleship.

This ship is notable for its 16 total 152mm L52 guns that run along its Port and Starboard beams. It has numerous SAM defences, but is designed for sea to land bombardments and engaging other ships.

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EsToVnIa
Senator
 
Posts: 4779
Founded: Jun 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby EsToVnIa » Thu May 14, 2015 4:58 pm

Why
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Billugslovakc
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Posts: 93
Founded: Mar 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Billugslovakc » Thu May 14, 2015 4:59 pm

What do you mean?

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Spirit of Hope
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12103
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Spirit of Hope » Thu May 14, 2015 5:01 pm

Billugslovakc wrote:BSN Norristromo

A Billugslovakc-class battleship.

This ship is notable for its 16 total 152mm L52 guns that run along its Port and Starboard beams. It has numerous SAM defences, but is designed for sea to land bombardments and engaging other ships.

It isn't going to do that well engaging other warships, especially with 152mm guns, they aren't going to have the range of the great guns carried by warships of WWI and WWII. Even if it had those guns it couldn't engage other warships that well, missiles are preferable.

For shore bombardment in support of an amphibious landing the guns aren't a bad idea, but you aren't going to need that many of these warships to support such a landing. Especially since you will have other warships and fighters to use missiles in support of the landing.
Fact Book.
Helpful hints on combat vehicle terminology.

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