Your Nations Warships, MKII

[Greater Aztec Empire]

The Tochtli-class Frigate is the main warship of the Greater Aztec Empire.

In 1985, the British Empire introduced the Duke-class Frigate to replace its outdated main warships to be deployed on the world's major oceans.
In 1990, the service term of the Duke-class Frigate attracted the Greater Aztec Empire to witness its optimum performance as an anti-sub warship.
In 1995, the mass production of the Duke-class Frigate attracted the Greater Aztec Empire to purchase it in large number to strengthen its military.
In 2000, the superior performance of the Duke-class Frigate in the Iraq War attracted the Greater Aztec Empire to deploy it as its main warship.
In 2005, the British Empire granted the production license and advanced technology of the Duke-class Frigate to the Greater Aztec Empire.
Since 2010 until the present day, the Greater Aztec Empire has produced about 10 Tochtli-class Frigates to be deployed on the world's major oceans.

[New Vihenia]

The fact that i can now measure surface area of irregular object in my 3D software making me really excited

Potentials are clear.. I can now effectively measure wetted surface area of my Submarine, exposed wing area of my planes, missiles etc and its wetted area and of course prismatic coefficient for my ships.

Guess now i can start refining estimates for my submarine's statblock :3

[Rhinocera]

I heard once that there was a kind of wiki type thing all about ns naval combat rps

does such a thing exist, and if so could someone link me it

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=69551#p2791607

This what you were looking for?

[Oaledonia]

http://safebooru.org//samples/1053/sample_e4fcaeb3c6e731e3f0242fe3c1aea969bce74014.jpg?1091578

[Spirit of Hope]

http://safebooru.org//samples/1053/sample_e4fcaeb3c6e731e3f0242fe3c1aea969bce74014.jpg?1091578

Your sick sometimes, did you know that?

Also where do you find all this stuff?

[Oaledonia]

http://safebooru.org//samples/1053/sample_e4fcaeb3c6e731e3f0242fe3c1aea969bce74014.jpg?1091578

Your sick sometimes, did you know that?

Also where do you find all this stuff?

Safebooru.org, it gets worse

[Oaledonia]

told you.

[Spirit of Hope]

told you.

That does it, I'm officially declaring war on you for this shit.

[Purpelia]

told you.

That does it, I'm officially declaring war on you for this shit.

I am going to have to agree with your sentiments here, if not the reaction. The tank ones are cute as hell. And the aircraft ones are ok. But the ship ones I just do not get. And the internet knows I am into shipping.

[San-Silvacian]

its really easy to understand it.

[The Corparation]

told you.

I don't even...

[Spirit of Hope]

Help?

259.6 meters length
62.4 meters beam
40,000 Tonnes (full load)
2×155 MW Pressurized Water Reactors
28 Knots
Unlimited Distance, 40 days supplies
2 Steam Powered Catapults
30-40 Aircraft
1,250 Ships Company
600 Air Wing Crew

[Consortium of Manchukuo]

Help?
(Image)
259.6 meters length
62.4 meters beam
40,000 Tonnes (full load)
2×155 MW Pressurized Water Reactors
28 Knots
Unlimited Distance, 40 days supplies
2 Steam Powered Catapults
30-40 Aircraft
1,250 Ships Company
600 Air Wing Crew

looks like the charles de gaulle of the Marine Nationale.

Thats good, French ships are the best and don't let anybody tell you different citoyen.

[Spirit of Hope]

Help?
(Image)
259.6 meters length
62.4 meters beam
40,000 Tonnes (full load)
2×155 MW Pressurized Water Reactors
28 Knots
Unlimited Distance, 40 days supplies
2 Steam Powered Catapults
30-40 Aircraft
1,250 Ships Company
600 Air Wing Crew

looks like the charles de gaulle of the Marine Nationale.

Thats good, French ships are the best and don't let anybody tell you different citoyen.

It is based off of it. Some minor modifications.

[Consortium of Manchukuo]

looks like the charles de gaulle of the Marine Nationale.

Thats good, French ships are the best and don't let anybody tell you different citoyen.

It is based off of it. Some minor modifications.

I was using NotDeGaulles in service too, I was planning to use them as the main carrier of my nation. Although we also have a smaller number of larger carriers, but the majority will be NotDeGaulles since they would be cheaper and can still deploy the majority of fighters and aircraft. Still need to redo the design though, I had made some modifications during the last re-design but still isn't as up to date as I would want.

Did you keep the sensors and weapons systems the same? While obviously the VLS aren't as important as its ability to carry fighters, I'm still enough of an idiot to find missiles on carriers to be cool, even if I've wrenched myself away from them on my fleet's carriers. Still the Sylver system has the Aster 15 and 30 missiles, I rather like those.

[Spirit of Hope]

It is based off of it. Some minor modifications.

I was using NotDeGaulles in service too, I was planning to use them as the main carrier of my nation. Although we also have a smaller number of larger carriers, but the majority will be NotDeGaulles since they would be cheaper and can still deploy the majority of fighters and aircraft. Still need to redo the design though, I had made some modifications during the last re-design but still isn't as up to date as I would want.

Did you keep the sensors and weapons systems the same? While obviously the VLS aren't as important as its ability to carry fighters, I'm still enough of an idiot to find missiles on carriers to be cool, even if I've wrenched myself away from them on my fleet's carriers. Still the Sylver system has the Aster 15 and 30 missiles, I rather like those.

I've kept the sensors and electronics, reduced the missiles and some of the other air defense equipment.

[The Soodean Imperium]

I was using NotDeGaulles in service too, I was planning to use them as the main carrier of my nation. Although we also have a smaller number of larger carriers, but the majority will be NotDeGaulles since they would be cheaper and can still deploy the majority of fighters and aircraft. Still need to redo the design though, I had made some modifications during the last re-design but still isn't as up to date as I would want.

Did you keep the sensors and weapons systems the same? While obviously the VLS aren't as important as its ability to carry fighters, I'm still enough of an idiot to find missiles on carriers to be cool, even if I've wrenched myself away from them on my fleet's carriers. Still the Sylver system has the Aster 15 and 30 missiles, I rather like those.

I've kept the sensors and electronics, reduced the missiles and some of the other air defense equipment.

As far as superfluous carrier armament goes, DeGaulle can't hold a candle to Kuznetsov. Eight Kashtan systems, almost two hundred Kinzhal SAMs, and twelve P-700 Granit (!!!) heavy supersonic anti-ship missiles. Hence the term "Aircaft Carrying Cruiser" and the fact that it tends to sail around without any substantial escort force.

As for your ship, what does the air wing consist of? Do you plan on including ASW, EW, COD, and tanker aircraft?

[San-Silvacian]

I've kept the sensors and electronics, reduced the missiles and some of the other air defense equipment.

As far as superfluous carrier armament goes, DeGaulle can't hold a candle to Kuznetsov. Eight Kashtan systems, almost two hundred Kinzhal SAMs, and twelve P-700 Granit (!!!) heavy supersonic anti-ship missiles. Hence the term "Aircaft Carrying Cruiser" and the fact that it tends to sail around without any substantial escort force.

As for your ship, what does the air wing consist of? Do you plan on including ASW, EW, COD, and tanker aircraft?

All a carrier needs are SAMs for self-defense.

The reason why the Kuzentsov is so heavily loaded is because literally when one of your enemy's navies has more ships than your entire WP combined, then add that enemy's allies warships (Which include a few carriers as well), the Russians wanted as much bang for their buck.

Also the reason why the Russians never sail any large escort force is because most of their ships have been stuck in port getting overhauls since 1985 :<

[The Soodean Imperium]

As far as superfluous carrier armament goes, DeGaulle can't hold a candle to Kuznetsov. Eight Kashtan systems, almost two hundred Kinzhal SAMs, and twelve P-700 Granit (!!!) heavy supersonic anti-ship missiles. Hence the term "Aircaft Carrying Cruiser" and the fact that it tends to sail around without any substantial escort force.

As for your ship, what does the air wing consist of? Do you plan on including ASW, EW, COD, and tanker aircraft?

All a carrier needs are SAMs for self-defense.

The reason why the Kuzentsov is so heavily loaded is because literally when one of your enemy's navies has more ships than your entire WP combined, then add that enemy's allies warships (Which include a few carriers as well), the Russians wanted as much bang for their buck.

Also the reason why the Russians never sail any large escort force is because most of their ships have been stuck in port getting overhauls since 1985 :<

Kuznetsov was also intended to get around a loophole in the Montreux Convention on the Turkish Straits, which prohibited the passage of ships over a given tonnage limit, unless they were capital ships, except for when the primary purpose of the capital ship was to carry aircraft. And under Soviet naval doctrine, Kuznetsov would have usually been sailing out on counter-attack strikes rather than working as a force-projection carrier, which made it well-suited for the "bang for your buck" approach.

Now Russia has so many ships getting overhauls that last May they gave one to Ukraine for free. How thoughtful!

[Spirit of Hope]

All a carrier needs are SAMs for self-defense.

The reason why the Kuzentsov is so heavily loaded is because literally when one of your enemy's navies has more ships than your entire WP combined, then add that enemy's allies warships (Which include a few carriers as well), the Russians wanted as much bang for their buck.

Also the reason why the Russians never sail any large escort force is because most of their ships have been stuck in port getting overhauls since 1985 :<

Kuznetsov was also intended to get around a loophole in the Montreux Convention on the Turkish Straits, which prohibited the passage of ships over a given tonnage limit, unless they were capital ships, except for when the primary purpose of the capital ship was to carry aircraft. And under Soviet naval doctrine, Kuznetsov would have usually been sailing out on counter-attack strikes rather than working as a force-projection carrier, which made it well-suited for the "bang for your buck" approach.

Now Russia has so many ships getting overhauls that last May they gave one to Ukraine for free. How thoughtful!

To bad they promptly stole Crimea and most of the Ukrainian naval warships, equipment and personal.

[Kusthet]

Sorry for the lack of segue, keep talking around me...just want some feedback on the vague ideas about kusthet submarines...


Uh, yes. Two kusthet interwar submarines.

Type D is basically a strange lovechild of the Oberon-class and type XXI u-boat. Like the type XXI, The boxy shape means that the type D has poor surface keeping qualities, a tendency to roll and pitch awkwardly. However, it's streamlined and smooth surface and lack of protruding deck guns mean that at it's introduction, it's one of the fastest underwater vessels available. Add to that, the addition of a snorkel and the increased battery life compared to many contemporaries, it's much more capable of operating underneath Kusthet's winter ice shelf, and deploying beyond it without issue.

The type D features 6 bow torepdo tubes of 535mm torpedo tubes, loaded with local copies of either the Mark 8 or Mark 24 tigerfish, depending on time and availability. A total payload of 16 torpedos is available for these tubes.

Hypothetically, the design features four shortened tubes of similar diameter across the vessel, just beneath the deck. These four torpedos are pre-loaded at shore, and the tubes are one-shot arrangements. The broadside tubes carry unguided torpedos similar to the mark 8, but have much less range, intended for a suprise attack from within an unprotected convoy, or to defend against hostile submarines or surface warships. If such an idea would work.


The type F is more of a local copy of the I-400, and hosted Kusthet's first attempt at launching cruise missiles from a submarine.

A massive, 122-metre long leviathan, two pressure hulls mated along the side with a third, smaller pressure cylinder in between, the Type F does away with the more streamlined design of other Kusthet sub-surface vessels, in favour of better surface handling, a necessity for the steam catapult and trio of [local compact seaplane dive-bomber] fighters the submarine is intended to be equipped with. Attempts at jet-powered seaplanes would go on to prove the short forseeable life of the design, which was granted a second lease with the advent of flying bombs, and later, missiles such as the V-1 and V-2.

The submarine's personal armament consists of eight 535mm tubes, again loaded with Mk8 or 24 torpedos. An additional payload of 18 torpedos along with those pre-loaded, and extensive fuel stores, means that the submarine is capable of operating for long periods without support, especially if the captain uses the attached seaplanes for reconaissance. Later refits would remove the catapult and seaplane float storage bays for additional storage space, and a simplified rail and launch ramp for self-guiding munitions.

As with most kusthet submarines of the time, the type F forgoes heavy surface armament, but storage spaces inside the hangar and top deck store quick-assemble tripods and 20mm AA guns. It's a rare vessel due to the cost of building and maintaining the boat and it's equipment, but was oddly considered as punishment by captains and crew assigned to them, due to the Type F's odd position, contested over by the burgeoning Kusthet Fleet Air Arm, and Submarine Command.

[The Soodean Imperium]

Sorry for the lack of segue, keep talking around me...just want some feedback on the vague ideas about kusthet submarines...

(Image)
Uh, yes. Two kusthet interwar submarines.

Type D is basically a strange lovechild of the Oberon-class and type XXI u-boat. Like the type XXI, The boxy shape means that the type D has poor surface keeping qualities, a tendency to roll and pitch awkwardly. However, it's streamlined and smooth surface and lack of protruding deck guns mean that at it's introduction, it's one of the fastest underwater vessels available. Add to that, the addition of a snorkel and the increased battery life compared to many contemporaries, it's much more capable of operating underneath Kusthet's winter ice shelf, and deploying beyond it without issue.

The type D features 6 bow torepdo tubes of 535mm torpedo tubes, loaded with local copies of either the Mark 8 or Mark 24 tigerfish, depending on time and availability. A total payload of 16 torpedos is available for these tubes.

Hypothetically, the design features four shortened tubes of similar diameter across the vessel, just beneath the deck. These four torpedos are pre-loaded at shore, and the tubes are one-shot arrangements. The broadside tubes carry unguided torpedos similar to the mark 8, but have much less range, intended for a suprise attack from within an unprotected convoy, or to defend against hostile submarines or surface warships. If such an idea would work.


The type F is more of a local copy of the I-400, and hosted Kusthet's first attempt at launching cruise missiles from a submarine.

A massive, 122-metre long leviathan, two pressure hulls mated along the side with a third, smaller pressure cylinder in between, the Type F does away with the more streamlined design of other Kusthet sub-surface vessels, in favour of better surface handling, a necessity for the steam catapult and trio of [local compact seaplane dive-bomber] fighters the submarine is intended to be equipped with. Attempts at jet-powered seaplanes would go on to prove the short forseeable life of the design, which was granted a second lease with the advent of flying bombs, and later, missiles such as the V-1 and V-2.

The submarine's personal armament consists of eight 535mm tubes, again loaded with Mk8 or 24 torpedos. An additional payload of 18 torpedos along with those pre-loaded, and extensive fuel stores, means that the submarine is capable of operating for long periods without support, especially if the captain uses the attached seaplanes for reconaissance. Later refits would remove the catapult and seaplane float storage bays for additional storage space, and a simplified rail and launch ramp for self-guiding munitions.

As with most kusthet submarines of the time, the type F forgoes heavy surface armament, but storage spaces inside the hangar and top deck store quick-assemble tripods and 20mm AA guns. It's a rare vessel due to the cost of building and maintaining the boat and it's equipment, but was oddly considered as punishment by captains and crew assigned to them, due to the Type F's odd position, contested over by the burgeoning Kusthet Fleet Air Arm, and Submarine Command.

- I'd suggest removing the sideways-mounted torpedo tubes. If your submarine is in the middle of a convoy when it begins its attack, either you're doing something wrong or your opponent is. I do recall hearing about some program in WWII or shortly afterward that would have fitted submarines with small, short-range torpedoes aft for self-defense, possibly on a swiveling mount, but I don't remember any of the details and I believe it was abandoned. At any rate, many WWII submarines did have rear-facing tubes within the hull in case they were chased or had to fire while withdrawing.

- As for the second one, you may want to look into the USN's Halibut-Class Submarine, which fired the Regulus cruise missile while surfaced. The Soviet Navy also built a number of these "SSGs" in the late 1950s and early 1960s; these were nuclear-armed and played the same strategic land-attack role as the later Ballistic Missile Submarines.

[Kusthet]

- I'd suggest removing the sideways-mounted torpedo tubes. If your submarine is in the middle of a convoy when it begins its attack, either you're doing something wrong or your opponent is. I do recall hearing about some program in WWII or shortly afterward that would have fitted submarines with small, short-range torpedoes aft for self-defense, possibly on a swiveling mount, but I don't remember any of the details and I believe it was abandoned. At any rate, many WWII submarines did have rear-facing tubes within the hull in case they were chased or had to fire while withdrawing.

- As for the second one, you may want to look into the USN's Halibut-Class Submarine, which fired the Regulus cruise missile while surfaced. The Soviet Navy also built a number of these "SSGs" in the late 1950s and early 1960s; these were nuclear-armed and played the same strategic land-attack role as the later Ballistic Missile Submarines.

Alright, replacing the broadside tubes with two rear tubes is a go, then. Static ones, not mobile.

I did look into the halibut, actually. I figured it was more a case of that Kusthet already had these Type-Fs lying around with empty hangars and a history of launching V-1 type flying bombs on people, so they'd retrofit a launch rack for a more traditional ballistic missile, rather than something nuclear, as a stop-gap for developing their next big submarine project. Especially as type-Ds became obselete with better sonar and positioning hardware becoming available....not to mention more efficient engines and batteries, too. There's only so far retrofitting a design can take you.

[New Vihenia]

Sub nuclear plant sizing. Repost i think.
Ok. Let's start :3

Submarine Nuclear Power Plant Sizing.- Conceptual Stuff.

This will deal with Weight aspect of the submarine nuclear plant, something which i wonder why never seen or very little discussed on the web. This is very important as it will determine the volume required for the submarine's machinery room, and by law of Archimedes this volume must equal weight, anything less or more will result of either addition of lead ballast or lengthen the submarine.

The size and weight of the propulsion plant or in Russian term called as "AEU" (Atomic Propulsion Installation) In turn is determined by the power required to move the submarine at desired speed. Thus the steps to determine the reactor properties in my opinion at least started with following steps :

1.Determine the power In terms of shaft horsepower or kilowatt that required by the submarine to move at desired speed.
2.Determine the thermal output of the reactor installation in MWt
3.Determine the weight of the reactor installation and its associated machineries, including backups (diesel generator, etc)

Hmm obviously this might miss some details, nonetheless i see this would be a good start for filling up statblock at least
So let's start with step 1.


1.Determine the power In terms of shaft horsepower or kilowatt that required by the submarine to move at desired speed.

First thing is of course why kilowatt ? Well this is for the sake of easiness of conversion since reactor specific weight which we will visit later will use Kg/Kw unit (1 Hp= 0.745 watt) While for shaft power Hp is more commonly used.

To determine the power required to move the sub at desired speed is of course arduous and long process involving calculus and hydrodynamics. Fortunately there are simple equations which i believe i had dealt with thoroughly in other thread. But i'll put it up again here for sake of convenience :3.

V=K*(Ps/(L*D))^(1/3)

Where :
V=Velocity in knot
K=Coefficient of propulsor where 25 for single screw sub and 24 for double screw sub
Ps=Shaft Horsepower in Hp
L=Submarine's length in feet
D=Submarine's beam in feet (assuming hull diameter is the same as beam)

Say we have a sub with following dimension :
Length : 230 ft (70 m)
Beam : 33 ft (10 m)
-Single screw
-Basically this would be "skipjack in steroids"

We need this sub to run at 40 knot max, can 40000 Shp enough for the task ?

V=25*(40000/(230*33))^(1/3)
V=44 Knot.

Okay that's gross, we can be happy and move to step 2.

2.Determine the thermal output of the reactor installation in MWt

One may actually skip this step as this not dealt with weight determination, but basically a sanity check to ensure that the reactor statblock of the sub have appropriate value of thermal power.

Submarine nuclear reactor is basically a massive boiler that produces great deal amount of heat, problem however not all of this heat can be converted into what runs the shaft, so the reactor will always designed to produce more heat than the shaft power of the submarine.

The measure for the above is termed as "Thermal efficiency" Which is the ratio between the thermal power supplied by the reactor to the net workout (Shaft power or electricity) Typical submarine use Pressurized Water Reactor which have 30% (Submarine) Or 33-37%(Commercial power plant) Of Thermal efficiency.

There are other types of reactor like Liquid metal cooled reactor and Helium cooled gas reactor (HTGR-High Temperature Gas cooled Reactor) Which have thermal efficiency of 40-50%

Choice of the reactors are depend on the experience or other stuff (including politics) Nonetheless high thermal efficiency is desired as it would means that more heat is converted to power which mean smaller and more compact reactor, this can reduce requirement of shielding, lowering weight and in turn smaller sub is possible or more volume available for other stuff.

Another measure of efficiency is the mechanical output of the turbomachinery (turbine shaft) This is very efficient with values ranged to 95% to even 98% (in Gas turbine engine)

Anyway we can determine thermal power output of the reactor through following equation :


Assume we use HTGR Reactor with its claimed 50% efficiency with mechanical efficiency of the turbomachinery assumed to be 95%, the reactor's thermal output is calculated to be :

Mwt=40000*(7,457*10^-4)/(0.95*0.5)
Mwt=63 Mwt

So the reactor's thermal power output is 63 Mwt. Then we shall proceed to the last step.

3.Determine the weight of the reactor installation and its associated machineries, including backups (diesel generator, etc)

Obviously, reactors is NOT the only thing within the propulsion group that has weight, there are other items too like turbines, turbogenerators, shaftline/s, gearboxes, electric motor etc.. This section deals with it.

The following table is taken from "Theory of Submarine Design" By Y.N Kormilitzin and A.N Khalizaev. Describing the breakdown of typical nuclear power plant and associated machineries.



Kw unit there refers to shaft power. Thus 40000 Shp corresponds to 29800 Kw.

I think usage of table is pretty obvious.. Except that the SGP (Steam Generating Plant) There is the reactor+its steam generator. The value for SGP in the table is for the Pressurized Water Reactor. A thing is that the table is not include any auxiliary component that present in the reactor room, so the table is only good for rough estimates, more detailed calculations is necessary to cover the auxiliaries which unfortunately are still beyond my reach.

For quick way one may use the summed value (that 45-52 Kg/Kw) and multiply it with the shaft power to get the weight of the propulsion plant.

However for user of reactor other than PWR, adjustment must be made to the reactor plant's specific weight. For this as far as i read in (Cold War Submarines esign and Construction of Soviet and US Submarine 1945-2001 by Norman Polmar) These values can be used :

HTGR plant : 11.3 Kg/Hp
Liquid Metal Plant this might refers to sodium plant : 15.9 Kg/Hp

But hey we're also have Lead-Bismuth plant. Unfortunately i found no specific weight information for Russian reactor plant (Obvious because they're thr only operator of submarine Lead Bismuth plant)

Thus i have to make some manual estimations for P-705 Lyra (Alfa Class) Submarine. Based on volume of machinery room from available drawings. The result is as follows :



Then we have :

HTGR plant : 11.3 Kg/Hp
Liquid Metal Plant this might refers to sodium plant : 15.9 Kg/Hp
Liquid Metal Plant using Lead-Bismuth Coolant : 13.1 Kg/Hp

The higher specific weight for sodium plant is perhaps because of some extra safety feature (thicker reactor shield plug) Or use of stronger and heavier material for its steam generator.

For sake of consistency we may need to convert values above to Kg/Kw by multiplying above value with 1.341 to get Kg/Kw value.

Thus now we have :
HTGR plant : 15.1 Kg/Kw
Liquid Metal Plant using sodium Coolant : 21.3 Kg/Kw
Liquid Metal Plant using Lead-Bismuth Coolant : 18.6 Kg/Kw

Then we may start the number crunching by simply multiply the shaft power in Kilowatt to the specific weight of the reactors and those components.

And we done.

Anyway thoughts are welcome and feel free to correct me... Especially in estimation, it's kinda difficult to find a good scaled internal drawings of submarine, let alone their important volumes and weight breakdown.


Some Good read :3

Chapter 8 of "Atomic Powered Submarine Design" By V.M Bukalov 1964. That deals with nuclear machinery design of submarine.

cheers :3

[Consortium of Manchukuo]

Wow, thats incredibly useful, thanks for posting. I had been mostly just finding ships of vaguely similar size to mine and upscaling/decreasing their power plants accordingly. Knowing for my submarines the actual numbers that I can use to get the appropriate propulsive machinery and the performance will be an incredibly cool. Thanks for finding such awesome information and being kind enough to post it in a manner that is easy to understand and highly informative.