What are mechas like in your nation?

[Bajireyn]

By Moore's Law, Radar will outpace Stealth by 2040 or something; rendering it useless.

Unless we get into plasma stealth or some other method of low observability.

Moore's law did not account for a semi radioactive particle being emmited by a Mecha that disrupts radar signals on a subatomic level and renders them useless.

If you need some sort of unobtanium to justify mecha,then you've already lost.

Anyways,the only practical mecha is slightly larger Powered Armor,imo.

[The Zeonic States]

Moore's law did not account for a semi radioactive particle being emmited by a Mecha that disrupts radar signals on a subatomic level and renders them useless.

Just saying

Said particle did not account for geiger counters.

When you can find a version that can detect a source of radioactivity from dozens of miles off before the Mecha can either move on or fire upon the approaching force gimmie a holler. (To my knowledge such a thing does not exist)

Honestly this is why i support this one Mecha out of all the BS gundam has driven at me over the Years, despite being a massive fan of the series i admit that most of the designs would not be practical however i strongly believe that this one is. I mean it's a sniper Mecha that can operate in the field and can mask it's presence relatively easy by just dispersing those speical little particles.

[SquareDisc City]

The problem is, what else uses Minovsky particles? Their disruptive effect on radar and even visual scans will make it obvious that SOMETHING is trying to hide, so just blanket the affected area in heavy firepower and that something is now a pile of rubble.

[Great Siam]

Said particle did not account for geiger counters.

When you can find a version that can detect a source of radioactivity from dozens of miles off before the Mecha can either move on or fire upon the approaching force gimmie a holler. (To my knowledge such a thing does not exist)

Honestly this is why i support this one Mecha out of all the BS gundam has driven at me over the Years, despite being a massive fan of the series i admit that most of the designs would not be practical however i strongly believe that this one is. I mean it's a sniper Mecha that can operate in the field and can mask it's presence relatively easy by just dispersing those speical little particles.

I think, with the level of technology you seem to be using, it would be relatively easy, simple even, to attach a radiation-detection device (of the kind we have today) to a satellite, naturally with the suitable improvements required for more accuracy.

Your giant sniper cannon is then effectively rendered useless to defend itself from a kinetic strike, or space dump, or numerous missiles launched at it using the coordinate given by the sat.

[The Zeonic States]

The problem is, what else uses Minovsky particles? Their disruptive effect on radar and even visual scans will make it obvious that SOMETHING is trying to hide, so just blanket the affected area in heavy firepower and that something is now a pile of rubble.

You do know that the standard emissions of a Mobile suit when using said particles is quite a large Area? You lose any sort of surprise with a bombardment, No doubt the Mecha would not be suited for all situations espeically when the Enemy is this trigger happy because a radar screen is blurring out a bit.

Oh and my apologies the Minovsky particle is not radiation based here is what the Gundam Wiki has to say on the particle that i assume the Mech would be emitting.

And another thing Square By the time this shit got to the Battlefield no doubt people would be using those generators all over the place, If you were within the Base's own shadow no one would notice if you activated Your own to remain hidden.


The Minovsky Particle

According to the official guide of Mobile Suit Gundam, Gundam Century and Gundam Officials, the Minovsky Physics Society, while working on the reactor, encountered a strange electromagnetic wave effect in U.C.0065 within the Minovsky-Ionesco reactor that could not be explained by conventional physics. Within the next few years, they identified the cause: a new elementary particle generated by the helium-3 reaction on the inner wall of the reactor, which was named the Minovsky particle or "M" particle. The Minovsky particle has near-zero rest mass - though, like any particle, its mass increases to reflect its potential or kinetic energy - and can carry either a positive or negative electrical charge. When scattered in open space or in the air, the repulsive forces between charged Minovsky particles cause them to spontaneously align into a regular cubic lattice structure called an I-field. An I-field lattice will slowly expand and scatter into space, however, after dense interference it will take approximately 29 days before the region can support normal electromagnetic communication again.

The main use of the Minovsky particle was in combat and communication. When the Minovsky particle is spread in large numbers in the open air or in open space, the particles disrupt low-frequency electromagnetic radiation, such as microwaves and radio waves. The Minovsky particle also interferes with the operations of electronic circuitry and destroys unprotected circuits due to the particles' high electrical charge which act like a continuous electromagnetic pulse on metal objects. Because of the way Minovsky particles react with other types of radiation, radar systems and long-range wireless communication systems become useless, infra-red signals are defracted and their accuracy decreases, and visible light is fogged. This became known as the "Minovsky Effect".

The disruption of electromagnetic radiation is due to the small lattice of the I-field creating fringes that long wavelengths cannot penetrate, and that diffract wavelengths that have similar distance with the fringes. This diffraction and polarization process disrupts the electromagnetic waves. Notice in real life there is a similar experimental particle that could do the same thing in few thousandth of a second, which is still not practical but proves the theory to be correct. A second use of the I-field (and Minovsky particles in general) was the repulsion of charged plasma and chargeless mega-particles from an I-field surface, which was of use both in power generation and armament technology. If controlled, the particles can form fringes of different widths and further interfere with electromagnetic waves of shorter wavelengths. This provides the basis for the miniaturizing of fusion reactors installed in mobile suits since a controlled I-field can block the infra-red waves. This reduces the heat from the thermonuclear reaction and reduces the need for coolant and shielding for the fusion reactors. Without such a field, a pilot would be boiled alive in a few nanoseconds and the suit would burst into superheated gasses, thus explaining many of the series' casualties when the reactor of a mobile suit is pierced with a beam weapon powerful enough to disperse this I-field.

The only counter measure to the "M" particle in the series was to install bulky and expensive shielding on all electronic equipment, but only to counteract the effect it had on electronic circuitry. While this could be done for space ships and naval ships, this ruled out the use of precision guided weapons, such as guided missiles. Due to this, the military use of Minovsky particles ushered in a new era of close-range combat. This is the primary reason for the birth of the Zeon close-combat weapon: the mobile suit.

Personally like i said this is the Era of Radar, Spy Drones and Sats being useless

It's for a good reason too

[Mitakihara Town]

I think Homura has a few in the armoury. I think I've seen one of them somewhere... She said they was clunky and unwieldy, and very vulnerable to anti-air and anti-tank p-p-p-... *checks dictionary* 'projectiles', whatever that meant.

She never even told me where she got them. I wonder why?...

-Madoka Kaname, Divine Protector of Magical Girls

[Nua Corda]

That's... Pretty much useless. The Germans experimented with huge artillery, and they stopped for a reason: there's no point.

Actually, it couldn't: the sheer complexity and scale of the device involved would make it ungodly unreliable, expensive and difficult or impossible to maintain in the field. Compared to a Scoot 'n' Shoot, which is about as complex and costly and takes about as much maintainence as a typical APC.

On the topic of cruise missiles: the point is to be a super-long-range guided precision strike weapon, which an enormous to the point of lolwut cannon is not, and this thing would make a perfect target for them: huge, highly visable and ultimately pretty delecate. T''would be a cruise missile's dream target. A little mobile artillery is much harder to spot and target.

Well this was in Era of Orbital Sat's and Spy Drones and Radar basically being Useless, You had to be just on top of a target before you would get a confirmation of a unit there, Assuming that tech came along at the same time? Your little cruise missile would have a hell of a time finding the damn thing. I mean heated spot in a desert? During the Day? And also a the thing is Precise within the Fictional Anime, If you applied the same computing software into working the cannon and imputing the trejectory of the Missiles and Cannon like you do with most artillery these days anyway? It's precise enough to land a shell that will kill or destory anything within almost a football field's radius.

The fusion reactor topic is diffrent by the time this thing came along the reactors were common place enough to be fairly reliable and most people able to repair them in field, As for munitions? It can load up at a base and be flown and dropped into a combat zone, assuming it has the jamming tech of the time period with it, it would be a ideal precision artillery piece. Not to mention it's a bit harder to detect an incoming shell then a missile that is another perk of it using a tradiational shell over say a cruise missile.

All in all? This is the type of thing that will be as good or bad as the tech of the day dictates.

It would not be suited to the battlefields of today but a hundred Years from now? more? This is the artillery piece you would want when all those fancy gizmo's for detecting Enemy units become useless by stealth techology when it catches up.

At that point you're just handwaving and the argument disappears.

[Grand Britannia]

I think Homura has a few in the armoury. I think I've seen one of them somewhere... She said they was clunky and unwieldy, and very vulnerable to anti-air and anti-tank p-p-p-... *checks dictionary* 'projectiles', whatever that meant.

She never even told me where she got them. I wonder why?...

-Madoka Kaname, Divine Protector of Magical Girls

You're god...

Vulnerability is for us weak mortals...

[The Serbian Empire]

Mechas?
No, that would probably get NATO to bomb the Serbian Empire again and send the country back to 1999. We need more economic growth!

[The Zeonic States]

Well this was in Era of Orbital Sat's and Spy Drones and Radar basically being Useless, You had to be just on top of a target before you would get a confirmation of a unit there, Assuming that tech came along at the same time? Your little cruise missile would have a hell of a time finding the damn thing. I mean heated spot in a desert? During the Day? And also a the thing is Precise within the Fictional Anime, If you applied the same computing software into working the cannon and imputing the trejectory of the Missiles and Cannon like you do with most artillery these days anyway? It's precise enough to land a shell that will kill or destory anything within almost a football field's radius.

The fusion reactor topic is diffrent by the time this thing came along the reactors were common place enough to be fairly reliable and most people able to repair them in field, As for munitions? It can load up at a base and be flown and dropped into a combat zone, assuming it has the jamming tech of the time period with it, it would be a ideal precision artillery piece. Not to mention it's a bit harder to detect an incoming shell then a missile that is another perk of it using a tradiational shell over say a cruise missile.

All in all? This is the type of thing that will be as good or bad as the tech of the day dictates.

It would not be suited to the battlefields of today but a hundred Years from now? more? This is the artillery piece you would want when all those fancy gizmo's for detecting Enemy units become useless by stealth techology when it catches up.

At that point you're just handwaving and the argument disappears.

Did you read the blurb about The Minovsky Particle?

This thing can generate them?

It's perfection for long and medium range artillery support and remote destruction of hardened targets.

It cannot?

It should never be constructed.

That simple, LIke i said its as good or bad as the tech of the day dictates

[Inutoland]

The only legged combat vehicle used in Inutoland's FT analogue is the Type III Legged Tactical Vehicle, or "Kugelmecha". We don't like bipedal mechs, because they're a bit crap.

[Kaiserholt]

Mechas?
No, that would probably get NATO to bomb the Serbian Empire again and send the country back to 1999. We need more economic growth!

Mecha are also useful in a number of civil occupationsas well.

OoC: tries and fails to not be noticed as a battletech / robotech fan

[Grenetar]

Non-existent, but one of Grenetar's interests for our military. Mostly for the National Grenetarian Army(NGA) and National Grenetarian Marines(NGM).

[SquareDisc City]

I don't know how big the jammed area is, but all that affects is how much shooting I'll need to do to destroy what's in it. Of course such a brute force approach is unsuitable if the Minovsky-user is in a populated area, but keep one's borders unpopulated (easy for us since we're on islands, might be harder for nations with long land borders) and that's not so much of a concern.

Considering that I fields block radio communication, I wouldn't WANT it on my bases or vehicles, I'd rather they were able to keep in touch with each other. The partial stealth offered by the Minovsky particle is I argue not worth throwing away the ability to effectively co-ordinate different units.

Not to mention that because I fields don't penetrate the ground surface, but the consequent electrostatic fields will, it's relatively trivial to make an anti-Minovsky-user mine.

[Nua Corda]

At that point you're just handwaving and the argument disappears.

Did you read the blurb about The Minovsky Particle?

This thing can generate them?

It's perfection for long and medium range artillery support and remote destruction of hardened targets.

It cannot?

It should never be constructed.

That simple, LIke i said its as good or bad as the tech of the day dictates

That's what I was referring to; that's not technology, that's magic. (And YES, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, but that's just plain impossible).

Which was my point: since it hinges on this bit of handwaveium, it's not practical, and therefore there was no point mentioning it as a practical mech.

[The Zeonic States]

I don't know how big the jammed area is, but all that affects is how much shooting I'll need to do to destroy what's in it. Of course such a brute force approach is unsuitable if the Minovsky-user is in a populated area, but keep one's borders unpopulated (easy for us since we're on islands, might be harder for nations with long land borders) and that's not so much of a concern.

Considering that I fields block radio communication, I wouldn't WANT it on my bases or vehicles, I'd rather they were able to keep in touch with each other. The partial stealth offered by the Minovsky particle is I argue not worth throwing away the ability to effectively co-ordinate different units.

Not to mention that because I fields don't penetrate the ground surface, but the consequent electrostatic fields will, it's relatively trivial to make an anti-Minovsky-user mine.

The Federation tried that with no success but hey it was anime Maybe it will work better in real life...Although i doubt it personally, the amount of explosives needed to seriously damage a mecha even one with inferior armor like the xam? You might as well detonate a Nuke. Of course the explosion would be two fold it would reveal what was out there and the location of where it was. However no doubt those things would be expensive for one thing, second placing them would be tricky for the xam mainly because IT IS OFF THE GROUND WHEN IT MOVES.

All in all you have a decent idea for a counter however like i stated earlier i have no doubt that when you have tech that can make radar impossible to use, disrupt communications for nearly a month, make you basically immune to sat detection, It would BE USED.

And i suppose for untrained or troops unused to the world with out modern communications upon the battlefield or those who go and alter plans at the last second would not be able to work in this world however well trained and skilled forces i have no doubt would adapt to it, That said it does not block ALL communications however what it does leave open is a very narrow strand of techology that is expensive to be produce and it requires one of those bulky anti M particle generators which if you have a landbattleship i guess you could use but short of that? I would hope my men were trained enough to follow the battle plan.

In short i still maintain the Mobile artillery unit as a good idea under the assumption techological barrier limits of the present day are exceded.

Did you read the blurb about The Minovsky Particle?

This thing can generate them?

It's perfection for long and medium range artillery support and remote destruction of hardened targets.

It cannot?

It should never be constructed.

That simple, LIke i said its as good or bad as the tech of the day dictates

That's what I was referring to; that's not technology, that's magic. (And YES, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, but that's just plain impossible).

Which was my point: since it hinges on this bit of handwaveium, it's not practical, and therefore there was no point mentioning it as a practical mech.

I do believe i said this as unsuited for the Modern battlefield and those physicists were not lying there was something in our reality with the same properities as these particles, in short like i said two times now.

It is good and practical as the tech of the day makes it so, In today's world? Assuming you could get the thing even working? And not exploding? with a fission reactor? Well it would be a very expensive target dummy, in this world? where those particles can be emitted by the flip of a switch? This is the type of artiller you want, I did not know that this was strictly limited to Modern techology although i do believe you knew i was speaking of future techology when i mentioned it several times.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Said particle did not account for geiger counters.

When you can find a version that can detect a source of radioactivity from dozens of miles off before the Mecha can either move on or fire upon the approaching force gimmie a holler. (To my knowledge such a thing does not exist)

OOC:They exist, at least for some kinds of radioactivity. The GRaND spectrometer on the Dawn asteroid probe detects gamma rays and neutrons from very weak sources from 100 or so km away. Alpha particles are a pain to detect in atmospheres, but beta particles... well, they're electrons, so big sources tend to ionize everything around them. It's mighty hard to hide something giving off electric shocks.

I'm not gonna ask what a "semi radioactive particle" is anyway...

IC: Northwest Slobovia is experimenting with six-legged armored vehicles for use in very rugged terrain, but none are deployed with the Defense Forces.

[The Merchant Republics]

With exception perhaps to some of the larger and heavier powerered armours available, there are no "mecha" in the Republics, according to the results of an unofficial investigation of their practicality commissioned by the Spartanum Military College they are unreliable mechanically, suffer breakdowns, drain power that would be better spent in firepower or mobility and are easily disabled by even well placed small arms fire.

In terms of heavy powered armour, there max size can comfortably walk in the average hallway, and are mostly used for base construction and heavy lifting in combat scenarios, not fighting.

[The Zeonic States]

When you can find a version that can detect a source of radioactivity from dozens of miles off before the Mecha can either move on or fire upon the approaching force gimmie a holler. (To my knowledge such a thing does not exist)

They exist, at least for some kinds of radioactivity. The GRaND spectrometer on the Dawn asteroid probe detects gamma rays and neutrons from very weak sources from 100 or so km away. Alpha particles are a pain to detect in atmospheres, but beta particles... well, they're electrons, so big sources tend to ionize everything around them. It's mighty hard to hide something giving off electric shocks.

I'm not gonna ask what a "semi radioactive particle" is anyway...

._. Your behind freind i already rechecked my source and found out it INTERFERES with radiation on some levels it does not GENERATE it.

And do you really think that people would blow that sort of cash on spy sat to detect something like this anyway? I don't even see the Americans doing that to be honest.

[Grand Britannia]

You can always separate the receiver from radar like Finland did to detect stealth.

IIRC, it won't detect the object, but you'll know something not yours is there. It's also really cheap.

[SquareDisc City]

:meh: All in all you have a decent idea for a counter however like i stated earlier i have no doubt that when you have tech that can make radar impossible to use, disrupt communications for nearly a month, make you basically immune to sat detection, It would BE USED.

Well, I might see the appeal of the lasting disruption effect. Set it off in an area I don't want the enemy to go and am happy to avoid using myself. But otherwise, as a Minovsky user you can't launch long-range attacks yourself because you have no radar, probably no satellite feeds, and your own I field would trash any self-guiding missiles. You're immune to precision weaponry, but can still be taken out if the enemy goes carpet-bombing. Oh, and if you're on the defensive and enemy tanks are rolling into your cities, if you send Minovsky users to take them out they're going to wreak havoc with your civilian electronics, so you might win the battle but really hurt the war effort.

I would hope my men were trained enough to follow the battle plan.

I would hope mine are too, but I recognise the words of von Moltke that "No battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy", and would like to be able to give them orders once combat is underway.

[Ulvena]

We've never really made mechas (human controlled robots) on a large scale in terms of military. The gears or joints can easily be jammed by a suicidal fool with a very strong metal stick. The tanks of whale oil that powers our mechs could easily be targeted by a good sniper and blown up. Or simply the logistical nightmare of having a mecha. They're too large and bulky to give them a small arm and it's just a bad strategy to give them large artillery cannons.

But, we have mitigated some of that with the Stilt Legs



They use explosive arrows and a rifle when need be. They're essentially walking anti-personnel cannons. The explosive arrows tend to burn like napalm and explode outwards, dispersing lots of flames while the rifle is there just in case their arrows run out, which is rare.

[The Zeonic States]

:meh: All in all you have a decent idea for a counter however like i stated earlier i have no doubt that when you have tech that can make radar impossible to use, disrupt communications for nearly a month, make you basically immune to sat detection, It would BE USED.

Well, I might see the appeal of the lasting disruption effect. Set it off in an area I don't want the enemy to go and am happy to avoid using myself. But otherwise, as a Minovsky user you can't launch long-range attacks yourself because you have no radar, probably no satellite feeds, and your own I field would trash any self-guiding missiles. You're immune to precision weaponry, but can still be taken out if the enemy goes carpet-bombing. Oh, and if you're on the defensive and enemy tanks are rolling into your cities, if you send Minovsky users to take them out they're going to wreak havoc with your civilian electronics, so you might win the battle but really hurt the war effort.

I would hope my men were trained enough to follow the battle plan.

I would hope mine are too, but I recognise the words of von Moltke that "No battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy", and would like to be able to give them orders once combat is underway.

You have points but i am tired of debating this to be honest and i still maintain my position that the artillery Mecha would be an effective investment if the techology reached that point.

I mean i can see what you are saying but this is a unit designed to operate alone or in a very small group it would not suffer from lack of coms trust me, the techology it self? for M particles as you stated it has advantages and disavantages but i have no doubt it would reshape the way we conduct warfare in situations were it was used.

[Barbary Federation]

There is really no need for them in the Barbary Federation. However, they are still being developed and are in the experimental stage.

[The Akasha Colony]

Radiation emissions are extremely easy to detect at range. The US and other NATO nations have had nuclear monitoring satellites in orbit for decades, sensitive enough to easily detect even a few-kiloton nuclear detonation. The US Vela Hotel satellite of the famous Vela Incident could detect nuclear detonations via gamma ray, x-ray, and neutron emissions from orbit as small as 2-3 kilotons, and was built with 1960s era technology as a 'small-budget' project. Given the amount of observation being given toward Iran and North Korea for their nuclear programs and the last two decades of the Cold War, you can bet detection has advanced significantly since then.

Even if the Minovsky field does not generate radiation, the readily-observable effects of disruption would allow for relatively easy triangulation by any sensor unit outside the range of the field. Figure out part of the field's geometry and you can calculate the point of origin. Simple math.

Putting even that aside, the fact that you need handwaving of such a blatant magnitude to even attempt to justify a Gundam-type mecha is an indication of how ineffective they would be in any realistic setting. To make just this one model plausible in your head, you have to alter the laws of physics themselves. This isn't a matter of just making technology better, like many claim, this is a matter of changing reality. In which case you might as well make up arbitrary physical rules that make tank treads suddenly less useful, or somehow make more complex machines easier to maintain.

Now, I like Gundam (except Gundam 00). It's one of my favorite franchises, and in less hard SF versions of my nations, they sometimes even make appearances. But it's just not practical once reality sets in.