NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #2

[Dtn (Ancient)]

It would be best to short-range SAMs on something that can fire at all angles on the move, or at least with minimum reaction times. An MLRS on a soft vehicle can't do that.

[The Reliquary]

The scene is rolling European country side in the midst of a major engagement. We zoom to a jeep parked behind a small copse

Lieutenant Purpelia: 'Enemy aircraft! Quick unload these 6 artillery rockets and put in SAM versions!'

Unfortunately as the men struggle to program and load the launcher a low flying jet drops a 500lb bomb on their position and the section is eliminated.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Can SAMs engage ground targets?

[Spirit of Hope]

The scene is rolling European country side in the midst of a major engagement. We zoom to a jeep parked behind a small copse

Lieutenant Purpelia: 'Enemy aircraft! Quick unload these 6 artillery rockets and put in SAM versions!'

Unfortunately as the men struggle to program and load the launcher a low flying jet drops a 500lb bomb on their position and the section is eliminated.

Your over looking multiple thins Purpelia has already stated.

1. This system would operate alongside already existing AA missile units, rocket artillery units, and ATGM units. From my understanding it is meant to bolster already existing abilities, so that you could suddenly have a much higher proportion of AA or ATGMs if you needed/desired it.

2. Purpelia has stated they would work in teams, no reason you can't have one in an AA role while the rest act in ATGM or artillery mode.

3. I'm thinking you could probably set up such a system so that you could have a mix of missiles at the ready, such as 6 ATGM and 2 AA misilles. So you could easily switch from one system to another.

Purpelia, what ranges are we talking about? You've said both 10 and 20 km at different points, which one is it?

What will it be mounted on? You've mentioned both APCs and soft trucks.

While I like the idea over all those points need to be clarified.

Can SAMs engage ground targets?

I would guess depends on the SAM system in general, some I wouldn't be surprised if they could engage ground targets, same goes for ATGMS/ground targeted missiles, some I would think could atleast target helicopters.
In Purpelias system they seam to be different missiles if that's what your asking about.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

It was related to the point. Since tanks are more difficult to kill than aircraft, I consider dual-role weapons like ADATS and especially Javelin to be anti-armour weapons first and air defence systems second. In ADATS, it is intended to be dual role, while Javelin's anti-aircraft capability is an emergency measure IIRC.

[Spirit of Hope]

It was related to the point. Since tanks are more difficult to kill than aircraft, I consider dual-role weapons like ADATS and especially Javelin to be anti-armour weapons first and air defence systems second. In ADATS, it is intended to be dual role, while Javelin's anti-aircraft capability is an emergency measure IIRC.

The big things would be target speed, helicopters and planes and much faster than tanks, and warhead, must AA misilles detonate on proximity charges since shrapnel can and will kill a helicopter or plane, while a ATGM would detonate in a specific manor do as to be able to penetrate a tanks much thicker armor.

[Dtn (Ancient)]

SAMs and MLRS systems are just too different to combine.

MLRS launchers have restricted firing arcs due to backblast. You can put them on soft vehicles, but the blast has to be directed to the rear or to the sides. An MLRS that isn't armored and NBC-filtered has to be evacuated when firing. The servos that lay the tube don't have to be capable of quickly tracking targets.

If you try to add short-range SAMs, then you have to be able to fire on fast targets that may appear in any direction with little warning time. Adding this capability to MLRS units will make them a lot more complicated and expensive than the have to be, even without fire control systems. Plus if you have one radar for every four launchers, then if that radar is disabled or malfunctions you have four useless launchers. It won't be able to fire on the move in any case, which is exactly when forces are most vulnerable to air attack.

[The Kievan People]

Now you are just going all over the map. First it wasn't really artillery, but now it's artillery capabilities are a key feature (even though the operators are trained... SAM operators). First it was short range, now it's comparable in performance to the longest range mobile AA systems - yet is allegedly mountable on a jeep.

You seem to be missing a major point here. This thing is NOT all these things at once. It's a platform that can be ANY OF these things depending on how you load it and what you attach it to. Just like your average battle rifle can be a grenade launcher, spear, automatic firearm or sniper but definitively not all at the same time. If you had fallowed the link I gave you, than you would understand that the platform is just a bunch of tubes with a round programing computer and another CPU that controls the elevation/rotation of the launcher. Without any modifications at all the system is just a light rocket artillery system that can also fire long range AT missiles (and even those need external guidance in the form of troops on the ground illuminating them). But the software is modular enough and the tubes are thick enough that you can for example stick your AA missile into it and plug it up with a radar to make it into an AA launcher. Just like you can take your battle rifle, stick a rifle grenade and different sights on it and make it into a grenade launcher. And with good support equipment and a good AA crew it will become a decent AA launcher. Just like with a good artillery crew and dumb rockets it will become a good rocket artillery piece. Same platform + different plugins = different capabilities.

So it`s just a common launcher? That`s rather superflous.

[Discordant Schism]

I have a question. My nation is really unlikely to go and invade many nations at all. This nation has, however, been invaded oft in the past(In my history, at least). The terrain is very similar to Afghanistan's, for reference.

So, my question is: Should I put significant investment in combined-arms technology, or focus on guerrilla war-based ideas? I really do think I should go with the latter, but a nation without many tanks, gunships, and planes is begging to be invaded. I'm not asking for it.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

You could always use a guerilla-like infantry mantra and then have significant supporting arms from air, armour and artillery (the magic triple A, imo). Offer your infantry pack howitzers for the mountains, unless they aren't useful in modern warfare. Mortars and guided missiles definitely are, however.

Create an account and ask here for guidance.
In other forums on that board are plenty of genuine military source material (almost all of it translated Soviet manuals, courtesy of Allanea) and lots of user input into tactics.

[Dtn (Ancient)]

Can SAMs engage ground targets?

Yes.

I have a question. My nation is really unlikely to go and invade many nations at all. This nation has, however, been invaded oft in the past(In my history, at least). The terrain is very similar to Afghanistan's, for reference.

So, my question is: Should I put significant investment in combined-arms technology, or focus on guerrilla war-based ideas? I really do think I should go with the latter, but a nation without many tanks, gunships, and planes is begging to be invaded. I'm not asking for it.

If there's a compelling reason to invade (and there is, if you've been invaded so many times before) nobody's going to be deterred by how many tanks you have.

[Purpelia]

1. This system would operate alongside already existing AA missile units, rocket artillery units, and ATGM units. From my understanding it is meant to bolster already existing abilities, so that you could suddenly have a much higher proportion of AA or ATGMs if you needed/desired it.

Exactly. Plus different units in the same battery and indeed across batteries will be able to share targeting data. So you can have the actual AA battery feeding targeting data to the missiles fired from these things.

2. Purpelia has stated they would work in teams, no reason you can't have one in an AA role while the rest act in ATGM or artillery mode.

Exactly. And combined with the ability to share targeting data I can have one unit in the battery have a trained AA crew operating all the AA firepower of the entire battery when needed. All the while dispersing the missiles across different units for more area coverage. (one example)

3. I'm thinking you could probably set up such a system so that you could have a mix of missiles at the ready, such as 6 ATGM and 2 AA misilles. So you could easily switch from one system to another.

Yes, that was the plan. And you have a computer in the launcher keeping track of what missiles are loaded in which tube. So you don't have to. The idea is that the system is very simple to use as well. You punch in the coordinates you want the shell to land, and the on board computer takes what ever data it can from what ever sensors you plugged into it and calculates the correct angle and elevation. Than it turns the motors on, positions the launcher and waits for you to fire.

Purpelia, what ranges are we talking about? You've said both 10 and 20 km at different points, which one is it?

The ranges are all in the 10-15km range depending on the projectile in question.

What will it be mounted on? You've mentioned both APCs and soft trucks.

It's not mounted on anything. But it can be mounted on anything you want since the system it self is actually just a launcher. I actually have the design already made and am in the process of revising it and fixing some bugs. Here is the link. You can check it out for details.
http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/ ... topic=9893

The whole idea is that the missile system is just a launcher. But one that has all the computers needed to act almost autonomously with minimal user input. And one that is modular enough and adaptable enough by design to receive data from just about any sensors you connect to it either via cable, radio, wireless or what ever else you think off.

In Purpelias system they seam to be different missiles if that's what your asking about.

I am planing on having two types of AA missiles. One would be pure IR stuff that's basically a glorified upscaled Strela. Something that every crew can be trained in using relatively easily. The second is a serious missile that would also be used by my regular AA units. And it would be something like this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_missile_system. But those would only be issued to vehicles and mounts with dedicated AA crews or guided by my AA units remotely as described.

[Discordant Schism]

You could always use a guerilla-like infantry mantra and then have significant supporting arms from air, armour and artillery (the magic triple A, imo). Offer your infantry pack howitzers for the mountains, unless they aren't useful in modern warfare. Mortars and guided missiles definitely are, however.

Create an account and ask here for guidance.
In other forums on that board are plenty of genuine military source material (almost all of it translated Soviet manuals, courtesy of Allanea) and lots of user input into tactics.

For the past while I've been trying to make a profile on that website, NSDraftroom. For some reason, I'm not getting the validation e-mail.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

I asked in their forum on the matter for you.

[Discordant Schism]

I asked in their forum on the matter for you.

Thanks.

EDIT: I decided to call myself Discordo and I'm using Gmail. Just saw the questions.

[San-Silvacian]

Can SAMs engage ground targets?

I remember that certain ones could, just like how Russian tank-fired ATGMs could be used against low-flying helicopters and systems like the AIM-9X which is supposedly able to engage both ground and air targets.

Also, I've been looking to build a division level SAM system that can take out both high-level bomber formations and a number of ballistic and cruise missiles, however I wouldn't mind it being based off the S-400 series (40N9 iirc) that has been impoved, however I don't know where to improve on the S-400 40N9.

[Spirit of Hope]

So here is an idea I've been toying around with for the last couple of days.  The following is the beginnings for a fast attack river/littoral boat, designed to harass enemy forces and carry special ops units.

So what do you think?

Armor: provides all around protection against 20mm rounds, 

APS: Iron Fist like system and AMAP-ADS like system

40mm main gun, turret mount,500 rounds

2 RWS (.280 British to 12.7mm machine guns) one facing front, one rear facing, varies 2,000-1,000 rounds each

One hard point for either 2 21 inch torpedoes or 4 Wire guided missiles,  (TOW like)

Second hard point for either, 4AA missiles, (stinger like) or 2 Wire guided missiles,  (TOW like)

dimensions: 90 ft long, 20 ft across, 9ft tall, 6ft draft

Weight: 55-60 Short Tons

Dual Propulsion 2,500 HP each

Crew: 7 possibility of 10-15 passengers

Speed: 20-25 knots trimmed 45-50 untrimmed

Access:  1 hatch top/roof, 1 rear exit, 1 under water exit

Trim tanks can be filled with water to lower the hull, providing better protection but reducing top speed

[The Kievan People]

1. This system would operate alongside already existing AA missile units, rocket artillery units, and ATGM units. From my understanding it is meant to bolster already existing abilities, so that you could suddenly have a much higher proportion of AA or ATGMs if you needed/desired it.

Bad allocation of resources. If I want more AT capabilities I can fire guided AT weapons from almost anything. If I want more AA fit RWS with laser guided rocket to my vehicles. If I want more artillery, Bakhcha fighting compartments.

All the capabilities without a single new vehicle or unit. There are plenty of other arrangements I could use to get the same capabilities too.

2. Purpelia has stated they would work in teams, no reason you can't have one in an AA role while the rest act in ATGM or artillery mode.

Or I could have one ADATs battery and one Artillery Battery.

[El Gran Tropico]

Does anyone know what a good material would be for the core of a high-penetration pistol round, akin to FN's 5.7x28mm round?

[Galla-]

Does anyone know what a good material would be for the core of a high-penetration pistol round, akin to FN's 5.7x28mm round?

Hardened steel.

[Ularn]

I asked in their forum on the matter for you.

Been having the same problem as Discord. Registered as Ularn using a gmail address. Definitely never arrived - checked spam tray as well.

[Purpelia]

Bad allocation of resources. If I want more AT capabilities I can fire guided AT weapons from almost anything. If I want more AA fit RWS with laser guided rocket to my vehicles. If I want more artillery, Bakhcha fighting compartments.

All the capabilities without a single new vehicle or unit. There are plenty of other arrangements I could use to get the same capabilities too.

The idea is that a) I don't know what I will need in that particular conflict and b) I don't have the money to pay for ALL of those together. So something that is adaptable is superior when it comes to enhancing existing capabilities to that stuff. Even if that stuff does the job somewhat better.

Or I could have one ADATs battery and one Artillery Battery.

Yes you could. But the idea is that I can have either one AA and one artillery, 2 artillery or 2AA units depending on what the strategic picture of the battlefield is at the time.

Imagine this. There is a patrol boat running down a river. It's not big, but it's not one of the really small ones either. And it has on it two of these launchers, one on the bow and another on the stern. The boat has one radar system and one AA crew and one artillery crew. And depending on where it is in the river system and in relation to enemy forces the boat can act as anything from using dumb rounds to blast apart an important bridge to using smart munitions to hit his formations to simply providing it self AA cover. One vehicle doing any of that DEPENDING on where it is and what it needs to do at the time.

I mean, this thing would go on everything. APC's with radar, APC's without radar, jeeps for airborne units (obviously without radar), fixed emplacements with or without radar, towed by horses for mountain combat (obviously without radar), river line boats...

[Central and Eastern Visayas]

Does anyone know what a good material would be for the core of a high-penetration pistol round, akin to FN's 5.7x28mm round?

Hardened steel.

But is it always the case, or is it just the practical case MT-wise? I think EGT wanted alternatives to hardened steel with the same, if not better, results.

[Yes Im Biop]

Does anyone know what a good material would be for the core of a high-penetration pistol round, akin to FN's 5.7x28mm round?

Water...No not penetration. Thats for a big cavity.

Tungsten rod? Or just steel would be your best bet

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Hardened steel.

But is it always the case, or is it just the practical case MT-wise? I think EGT wanted alternatives to hardened steel with the same, if not better, results.

Hardened steel is the best in almost all applications for small arms. Steel jacketed lead cores are probably the most common types, but hardened steel probably offers better results.