NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #2

[Purpelia]

For those of you who remember that light missile-rocket system I designed a while back. And for those that don't or have not heard of it. I have to ask a question about my envisioned use for it. First for a very brief description. The launcher is basically a 4x2 220mm MLRS. It can fire AA or AT missiles (top attack guided ones at that) as well as standard dumb rounds or guided HE rounds. So basically this meets this. The system it self has no sensors thou. But it will always be deployed either linked to a vehicle that does (battery command vehicle of some sort) or on a vehicle that does (APC with this + radar on the roof). So it will have access to radar and other stuff when in my service. You don't need it thou to function as long as you are willing to give up on the AA role. So you can mount the thing on just about anything like a jeep or light APC if you need light rocket artillery or a good ATGM launcher.

My intention for using it is to mount it on APC's with their own radar and IR detection systems and use it to act as a all purpose AA and AT missile system that also doubles as rocket artillery when it's needed. With the primary accent being on the AA and AT action. The units would be grouped in batteries of 4, one issued to each of my motor rifle or armor battalions. A similar setup would be mounted on my river line navy boats.

Now, my first questions are:
1) How do you rate such a system? What do you think about it? Would it be useful?
2) Do you think my use for it as described is smart? What would you change/improve?

[Strykla]

Hey, I'm in an argument with a guy who thinks a sniper will be able to get consistent headshots in an area like this with a Remington Model 700, and that the rifle will be useful in submarine-like combat zones.

Rest of the argument.

[Kouralia]

Hey, I'm in an argument with a guy who thinks a sniper will be able to get consistent headshots in an area like this with a Remington Model 700, and that the rifle will be useful in submarine-like combat zones.

Rest of the argument.

Oh, fuck me...

The guy who had search-lights, 3 and 5 inch naval guns, NVGs and electric engine'd ships in a post apocalyptic RP (admittedly, as OP I was shite at keeping tech under control).

1) Bolt action sniper in close quarters? Why not go for semi-auto one, so if you're jumped you've effectively got a long battle rifle. Better yet, IIRC there's a 12" barrel length M417 which is about the length of an M4.
2) No, not in a submarine.
3) Why go for the fucking head if in symmetrical warfare? If you're not fighting terrorists then there's not gonna be martyr vests, simple as. Just aim for centre of mass unless you absolutely have to.

[Minnysota]

I've been thinking of focusing more on defense with my military, similar to how Japan focuses on their defense instead of thinking about power projection. However, I have questions with my navy. Since I'm mostly focusing on defense now, should I retain any carriers, nuclear submarines, or ballistic missiles submarines for my fleet?

[Immoren]

Hey, I'm in an argument with a guy who thinks a sniper will be able to get consistent headshots in an area like this with a Remington Model 700, and that the rifle will be useful in submarine-like combat zones.

Rest of the argument.

Unless I remember incorrectly, qualified sniper should be able to do headshot from much farther than that.

Picture

[Bafuria]

Hey, I'm in an argument with a guy who thinks a sniper will be able to get consistent headshots in an area like this with a Remington Model 700, and that the rifle will be useful in submarine-like combat zones.

Rest of the argument.

Unless I remember incorrectly, qualified sniper should be able to do headshot from much farther than that.

Picture

Yeah, when firing 2 rounds per minute maximum, while prone, and aiming at a stationary target.

In a submarine he would get slaughtered.

[Yes Im Biop]

Ok i've been reading about MIRV's (Don't ask why) And i was thinking. Could you make a Counter system that splits into mini warheads to intercept the MIRV's many rounds? Instead of trying to hit it before it splits?

[Purpelia]

Ok i've been reading about MIRV's (Don't ask why) And i was thinking. Could you make a Counter system that splits into mini warheads to intercept the MIRV's many rounds? Instead of trying to hit it before it splits?

You could. But stop and think about it for a moment. What you propose is basically firing one missile that splits into loads of missiles to track and hunt down each of the warheads. And it's going to have to be loads of proper missiles since the warheads will have dispersed quite a lot after splitting. You can't get away with anything less than proper missiles. So your launcher will be the size of an ICBM. At that point why not just launch loads of missiles from the ground? Or do what the sane people do and fire off a nuclear interceptor.

[Immoren]

Unless I remember incorrectly, qualified sniper should be able to do headshot from much farther than that.

Picture

Yeah, when firing 2 rounds per minute maximum, while prone, and aiming at a stationary target.

In a submarine he would get slaughtered.

I was too lazy to add that "this picture applies in perfect conditions" disclaimer.

[Crookfur]

Hey, I'm in an argument with a guy who thinks a sniper will be able to get consistent headshots in an area like this with a Remington Model 700, and that the rifle will be useful in submarine-like combat zones.

Rest of the argument.

A dude with a large bolt action precision rifle will get his arse handed to him by some one with a pistol let alone a SMG, Shotgun or carbine (or whatever CQB weapon is at hand) in such enclosed enviroments no matter how much of an uber badass he is.

Such a weapon will take too long to manouver, likely get stuck on things, take time to reload (even if it did use an enfeild action) and the telescopic sights will be a definitve hindernce.

Such are the bloody good reasons every entry team in the world doesn't use anything bigger than an AK, even the russians leave the RPKs and PKMs outside.

Oddly i'm starting to agree with soem of the youtube weapony types in that i hate the term "sniper rifle". If a sniper ever has to to make snap shots at close range then he has well and truely f*cked up.

[The Kievan People]

Ok i've been reading about MIRV's (Don't ask why) And i was thinking. Could you make a Counter system that splits into mini warheads to intercept the MIRV's many rounds? Instead of trying to hit it before it splits?

Yes. It's not enormously practical but yes.

[Yes Im Biop]

Ok i've been reading about MIRV's (Don't ask why) And i was thinking. Could you make a Counter system that splits into mini warheads to intercept the MIRV's many rounds? Instead of trying to hit it before it splits?

You could. But stop and think about it for a moment. What you propose is basically firing one missile that splits into loads of missiles to track and hunt down each of the warheads. And it's going to have to be loads of proper missiles since the warheads will have dispersed quite a lot after splitting. You can't get away with anything less than proper missiles. So your launcher will be the size of an ICBM. At that point why not just launch loads of missiles from the ground? Or do what the sane people do and fire off a nuclear interceptor.

God damn you logic.

[Kouralia]

Hey, I'm in an argument with a guy who thinks a sniper will be able to get consistent headshots in an area like this with a Remington Model 700, and that the rifle will be useful in submarine-like combat zones.

Rest of the argument.

A dude with a large bolt action precision rifle will get his arse handed to him by some one with a pistol let alone a SMG, Shotgun or carbine (or whatever CQB weapon is at hand) in such enclosed enviroments no matter how much of an uber badass he is.

Such a weapon will take too long to manouver, likely get stuck on things, take time to reload (even if it did use an enfeild action) and the telescopic sights will be a definitve hindernce.

Such are the bloody good reasons every entry team in the world doesn't use anything bigger than an AK, even the russians leave the RPKs and PKMs outside.

Oddly i'm starting to agree with soem of the youtube weapony types in that i hate the term "sniper rifle". If a sniper ever has to to make snap shots at close range then he has well and truely f*cked up.

Sniper 1: when one of the squads is lead out and the IC calls for them to assault the building. His radio's broken so only the closest man hears him, and that's a sniper with a long and 40 rounds of 7.62, and they get up to like the garden wall before the IC turns around and goes 'Well, shit...'.

[Immoren]

Even though in the end exact compostions of small units are sort of irrelevant because they quickly are thrown into trash bin after shooting starts, I am now again condering simplyifying my rifle platoons into 1-2 different types instead of current three different types.

[Spirit of Hope]

Now, my first questions are:
1) How do you rate such a system? What do you think about it? Would it be useful?
2) Do you think my use for it as described is smart? What would you change/improve?

Starting from the end:
2. Yes such a system if not already smart (self guided rounds or the like) could certainly easily be made smart. Smart 155mm artillery ammo exists, and depending on you definition 20mm grenades have been made "smart"

1. Sounds like a good system, my only question is how are you going to aim the ATGMs? Radar wouldn't work to well... Other than that it suffers from the "one system trying to fulfill two rolls" problem, a dedicated system would probably be better at the one job, but unable to do both. So keep some dedicated systems around and you should be fine.

[Purpelia]

Starting from the end:
2. Yes such a system if not already smart (self guided rounds or the like) could certainly easily be made smart. Smart 155mm artillery ammo exists, and depending on you definition 20mm grenades have been made "smart"

To elaborate. The system consists of a launcher with 8 tubes in 2 rows of 4. A ballistic computer that does the aiming and programs the rounds with guidance and airburst data if needed. And that's it. You have your basic unguided HEFrag, Thermobaric, submunition smoke and illumination rockets and than you also have the ATGM and AA missiles. So smart vs dumb comes down to what ammo you load into it.

1. Sounds like a good system, my only question is how are you going to aim the ATGMs? Radar wouldn't work to well...

Infantry or forward observers, UAV's or what ever call in a missile strike. The launcher fires the shot to fly to the general direction of where it was called from. Once there, the missile locks the missiles have the same type of guidance you see on various anti tank submunitions. They basically find their target and land on it.

This said the ATGM missiles are not meant to be used against close in point targets for situations like say when a squad spots an enemy tank. They can do this, but that's not really their primary role. This thing aint a TOW or Javelin. It's an artillery piece with the same range as say heavy mortars and should be seen as such. The idea being that you engage enemy armor beyond visual range of the launcher and at the far end of your recognizance lines as opposed to letting them pass into fighting range of the infantry who would than use their IFV's and their ATGM's for the job.

A single spotter can from cover using a designator, or maybe a light UAV flying above the clouds and stuff like that can spot an enemy formation and call in a battery wide top attack ATGM strike. 4 units of 8 tubes each, that makes 32 top attack missiles coming down on the enemy formation all at once. And regardless if they are dug in, dispersed or advancing along an open field no armor or mechanized formation will survive being on the receiving end of that. Alternatively, you can have your forward spotters guide the missiles in on to any point targets. But again, the key being that this is something my battalions would use to reach out and hit stuff beyond the range of infantry held ATGM's. It's basically the rocket/missile compliment to the battalion heavy mortar battery.

Other than that it suffers from the "one system trying to fulfill two rolls" problem, a dedicated system would probably be better at the one job, but unable to do both. So keep some dedicated systems around and you should be fine.

Yes, that is going to be a problem. As in, if you load up the wrong missiles you are screwed. But I have taken steps to mitigate this as much as I can. And it's the only reasonable way I can get that sort of capability down to the battalion level without burring them with various artillery batteries. For example, my ideal infantry battalion consists of 3 infantry companies, each with their own 3 squads and ATGM section and one armor company. And than on top of that you have a heavy mortar battery and a missile/rocket battery and a AA platoon of Tunguska like vehicles of 4 vehicles each as fire support. Command elements not described.

[El Gran Tropico]

Infantry or forward observers, UAV's or what ever call in a missile strike. The launcher fires the shot to fly to the general direction of where it was called from. Once there, the missile locks the missiles have the same type of guidance you see on various anti tank submunitions. They basically find their target and land on it.

This said the ATGM missiles are not meant to be used against close in point targets for situations like say when a squad spots an enemy tank. They can do this, but that's not really their primary role. This thing aint a TOW or Javelin. It's an artillery piece with the same range as say heavy mortars and should be seen as such. The idea being that you engage enemy armor beyond visual range of the launcher and at the far end of your recognizance lines as opposed to letting them pass into fighting range of the infantry who would than use their IFV's and their ATGM's for the job.

A single spotter can from cover using a designator, or maybe a light UAV flying above the clouds and stuff like that can spot an enemy formation and call in a battery wide top attack ATGM strike. 4 units of 8 tubes each, that makes 32 top attack missiles coming down on the enemy formation all at once. And regardless if they are dug in, dispersed or advancing along an open field no armor or mechanized formation will survive being on the receiving end of that. Alternatively, you can have your forward spotters guide the missiles in on to any point targets. But again, the key being that this is something my battalions would use to reach out and hit stuff beyond the range of infantry held ATGM's. It's basically the rocket/missile compliment to the battalion heavy mortar battery.

I like this idea. Just remember to use lots and lots of UAVs and man-portable laser designators with your infantry units. Redundancy will be key in making this system pay off - especially in defensive engagements where your recon screen can be overrun or destroyed fairly quickly. UAVs will be the more flexible of the two systems, but you'll want backups on the ground with the troops to guarantee your troops can rely on this system for fire support. I also remember seeing an old design on draftroom for a 'smart' rifle-grenade for close-quarters top-attack capability against APcs and some tanks - something like that might be a nice addition to your infantry kit if you're going to start issuing lots of laser designators to your infantry (as your missile system seems to require). If you're going to go with a big fancy data-linked command vehicle, you might also want to look into some fancy radar systems that can not only track aircraft, but can track artillery shells in flight. Then you can use your HE rockets for counter-battery work too (although the range on the rockets might prevent this).

[The Kievan People]

For those of you who remember that light missile-rocket system I designed a while back. And for those that don't or have not heard of it. I have to ask a question about my envisioned use for it. First for a very brief description. The launcher is basically a 4x2 220mm MLRS. It can fire AA or AT missiles (top attack guided ones at that) as well as standard dumb rounds or guided HE rounds. So basically this meets this. The system it self has no sensors thou. But it will always be deployed either linked to a vehicle that does (battery command vehicle of some sort) or on a vehicle that does (APC with this + radar on the roof). So it will have access to radar and other stuff when in my service. You don't need it thou to function as long as you are willing to give up on the AA role. So you can mount the thing on just about anything like a jeep or light APC if you need light rocket artillery or a good ATGM launcher.

My intention for using it is to mount it on APC's with their own radar and IR detection systems and use it to act as a all purpose AA and AT missile system that also doubles as rocket artillery when it's needed. With the primary accent being on the AA and AT action. The units would be grouped in batteries of 4, one issued to each of my motor rifle or armor battalions. A similar setup would be mounted on my river line navy boats.

Now, my first questions are:
1) How do you rate such a system? What do you think about it? Would it be useful?
2) Do you think my use for it as described is smart? What would you change/improve?

1. Ditch the anti-aircraft role.
2. Forget about direct fire.

OR

1. Forget about artillery rockets.

See: http://defense-update.com/products/p/P44.htm

There is no advantage to combining three completely different roles on one platform. There is overlap between an ATGM armed TD and a missile armed SPAA. There is also overlap between a MLRS and a long-range guided missile. There is no overlap between all three roles; where do you plan on finding personnel qualified simultaneously as artillerymen, tank killers and SAM operators anyway?

[Purpelia]

1. Ditch the anti-aircraft role.

Can't. But as explained bellow it is a secondary role.

2. Forget about direct fire.

I did. Or rather this thing was newer intended to do direct fire.

1. Forget about artillery rockets.

See: http://defense-update.com/products/p/P44.htm

You have it all wrong. This thing is not intended to reach that sort of range. Or to be that huge or mounted on the whole back of a truck and reloaded by another 10 trucks worth of ammo. That would be silly on the battalion level. This thing is about the size of the nebelwerfer and has a maximum range of about 10km with all of its weapons.

Tell you what. Here is the link to the actual design (old version):
http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/ ... topic=9893

See for your self what I am talking about.

There is no advantage to combining three completely different roles on one platform.

But there is. The ability to get a lot of capability out of fewer units. That and the ability to use your

There is overlap between an ATGM armed TD and a missile armed SPAA.

Except that this is not a TD but a short range missile system. It has much more range than a TD and fires BWR. But it has less range than a conventional missile system or artillery. Really, there is no quite such piece of equipment anywhere in the world today. So drawing analogues like we are is pointless and only leads to confusion.

There is no overlap between all three roles; where do you plan on finding personnel qualified simultaneously as artillerymen, tank killers and SAM operators anyway?

Well the artillery role only needs one man to know how to work the targeting computer. The tank killer, or rather fire and forget 10km range ATGM role only needs someone trained how to push a button and enter some general area coordinates into a computer. So the only real training required is for the SAM role. And that would indeed require training my crews. However one saving grace to this is that the units would be operating within a battalion that has it's own SAM unit. So if these are called upon to fire in the SAM role it won't be often. And it will mostly be a process of getting all their targeting data from the SAM unit and just pressing a button. So they would be acting as something like auxiliary AA units. It's not something that is the units primary function. At least not in my battalion deployment. In other cases where it would be than the units would be issued with a fully trained AA crew and given mostly AA equipment and missiles. However the idea is that the system is flexible enough to allow me to do that if I want to rather than me having to build a brand new launcher.

[The Kievan People]

Let's compare this to the K-2 w/KSTAM-II smart shells...

1. BLOS Anti-Armor? K2 does that.
2. Low-level AA? K2 does that.
3. Indirect shelling? K2 does that.

So what was this supposed to add again? Other than complexity?

[Altaiire]

Can someone explain to me (preferably in layman's terms...) how the coincidence rangefinder(s) on the T29 would be used by the tank crew? (They're the 'boxes' on either side of the turret.)

[Our Most Resplendent Goddess Sen]

The gunner peers into the eyepiece, points the rangefinder at the target, turns a knob until the two halves of the target's image match up, and then reads the range off a dial.

[Purpelia]

Let's compare this to the K-2 w/KSTAM-II smart shells...

1. BLOS Anti-Armor? K2 does that.
2. Low-level AA? K2 does that.
3. Indirect shelling? K2 does that.

So what was this supposed to add again? Other than complexity?

The ability to fire off a barrage of rounds all at once rapidly blasting a whole area to bits. The ability to deploy smoke, gas or submunitions. The ability to actually shoot down aircraft in the 20km or so range. The ability to do all this while mounted on the back of a jeep.

[The Kievan People]

Let's compare this to the K-2 w/KSTAM-II smart shells...

1. BLOS Anti-Armor? K2 does that.
2. Low-level AA? K2 does that.
3. Indirect shelling? K2 does that.

So what was this supposed to add again? Other than complexity?

The ability to fire off a barrage of rounds all at once rapidly blasting a whole area to bits. The ability to deploy smoke, gas or submunitions. The ability to actually shoot down aircraft in the 20km or so range. The ability to do all this while mounted on the back of a jeep.

Now you are just going all over the map. First it wasn't really artillery, but now it's artillery capabilities are a key feature (even though the operators are trained... SAM operators). First it was short range, now it's comparable in performance to the longest range mobile AA systems - yet is allegedly mountable on a jeep.

[Purpelia]

The ability to fire off a barrage of rounds all at once rapidly blasting a whole area to bits. The ability to deploy smoke, gas or submunitions. The ability to actually shoot down aircraft in the 20km or so range. The ability to do all this while mounted on the back of a jeep.

Now you are just going all over the map. First it wasn't really artillery, but now it's artillery capabilities are a key feature (even though the operators are trained... SAM operators). First it was short range, now it's comparable in performance to the longest range mobile AA systems - yet is allegedly mountable on a jeep.

You seem to be missing a major point here. This thing is NOT all these things at once. It's a platform that can be ANY OF these things depending on how you load it and what you attach it to. Just like your average battle rifle can be a grenade launcher, spear, automatic firearm or sniper but definitively not all at the same time. If you had fallowed the link I gave you, than you would understand that the platform is just a bunch of tubes with a round programing computer and another CPU that controls the elevation/rotation of the launcher. Without any modifications at all the system is just a light rocket artillery system that can also fire long range AT missiles (and even those need external guidance in the form of troops on the ground illuminating them). But the software is modular enough and the tubes are thick enough that you can for example stick your AA missile into it and plug it up with a radar to make it into an AA launcher. Just like you can take your battle rifle, stick a rifle grenade and different sights on it and make it into a grenade launcher. And with good support equipment and a good AA crew it will become a decent AA launcher. Just like with a good artillery crew and dumb rockets it will become a good rocket artillery piece. Same platform + different plugins = different capabilities.