NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #2

[Tule]

80% of police killed on duty are attacked from within that distance, as they don't have time to draw their pistol and deliver effective fire.

And that's without having to drop an assault rifle.

Police and soldiers are completely different situations. Most police officers never have to fire their gun in the line of duty, and have a mentality that is not geared the same way a soldiers is.

Secondly most police aren't in an active gun fight when they are killed, they are mostly ambushed/surprised at close range.

A soldier on the other hand is in a gun fight, when his weapon jams, he likely know, around where the enemy is. He is not being surprised he is drawing his back up (if he has one) and positioning to fire.

Personally all of my soldiers are issued side arms, and the choice to carry it on operations is left up to them. Some do some don't.

Even if we include all police shootings and not just police deaths from ambushes, handgun accuracy still deteriorates rapidly the further the range is.

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

At more than 3 yards the hit probability drops to a pathetic 11%

[San-Silvacian]

The only back up I will issue.

[The UK in Exile]

(Image)

The only back up I will issue.

ugly and unreliable in one efficient package.

[Khodoristan]

What we use.

[Tule]

My backup

[Grand Britannia]

Best backup in Britannia.

[Purpelia]

At more than 3 yards the hit probability drops to a pathetic 11%

Honestly speaking. Even if it was 1% and if there was absolutely no chance of me actually killing someone with a handgun. The moment my weapon jams and there is someone standing right in front of me whose gun works just fine I'd rather have that 1% of flashing loud and scary gunpowder powered action to make the enemy take pause while I do any of the things mentioned on the last page in terms of handling the situation than try to do them without it.

[Tule]

At more than 3 yards the hit probability drops to a pathetic 11%

Honestly speaking. Even if it was 1% and if there was absolutely no chance of me actually killing someone with a handgun. The moment my weapon jams and there is someone standing right in front of me whose gun works just fine I'd rather have that 1% of flashing loud and scary gunpowder powered action to make the enemy take pause while I do any of the things mentioned on the last page in terms of handling the situation than try to do them without it.

The time it takes to pull out a pistol is better spent trying to bayonet the enemy, running for cover or clearing the jam.

[San-Silvacian]

(Image)

The only back up I will issue.

ugly and unreliable in one efficient package.

but :sterling:

[Purpelia]

Honestly speaking. Even if it was 1% and if there was absolutely no chance of me actually killing someone with a handgun. The moment my weapon jams and there is someone standing right in front of me whose gun works just fine I'd rather have that 1% of flashing loud and scary gunpowder powered action to make the enemy take pause while I do any of the things mentioned on the last page in terms of handling the situation than try to do them without it.

The time it takes to pull out a pistol is better spent trying to bayonet the enemy, running for cover or clearing the jam.

The first is not always applicable and the others won't help much when the other guy just stands there and shoots you while you do it.

[Tule]

The time it takes to pull out a pistol is better spent trying to bayonet the enemy, running for cover or clearing the jam.

The first is not always applicable and the others won't help much when the other guy just stands there and shoots you while you do it.

You can run 6 meters in the time it takes to pull out a pistol. 6 meters is also the distance where your pistol hit probability drops to "useless".

[Gawdzendia]

The time it takes to pull out a pistol is better spent trying to bayonet the enemy, running for cover or clearing the jam.

The first is not always applicable and the others won't help much when the other guy just stands there and shoots you while you do it.

Its rather difficult to actually kill someone with a pistol (That video is rather long fyi).

This is also just unarmoured targets with (I assume) hollowpoint rounds. I'm sure things change with FMJ's, but they're also probably wearing armour.

It seems unnecessary.

[Kouralia]

The first is not always applicable and the others won't help much when the other guy just stands there and shoots you while you do it.

Its rather difficult to actually kill someone with a pistol (That video is rather long fyi).

This is also just unarmoured targets with (I assume) hollowpoint rounds. I'm sure things change with FMJ's, but they're also probably wearing armour.

It seems unnecessary.

Mm-hmm, that's why police keep shooting until the target's on the ground.

The only reason all Kouralian service personnel carry a pistol is because I couldn't resist issuing every Kouralian Service Person with a bull-pup, double-barreled, over-under, select-fire, metal-storm, revolver-action, armour-piercing 6.5CBJ revolver.

[Gawdzendia]

Its rather difficult to actually kill someone with a pistol (That video is rather long fyi).

This is also just unarmoured targets with (I assume) hollowpoint rounds. I'm sure things change with FMJ's, but they're also probably wearing armour.

It seems unnecessary.

Mm-hmm, that's why police keep shooting until the target's on the ground.

The only reason all Kouralian service personnel carry a pistol is because I couldn't resist issuing every Kouralian Service Person with a bull-pup, double-barreled, over-under, select-fire, metal-storm, revolver-action, armour-piercing 6.5CBJ revolver.

Every time you post that gun I have a mild heart murmur followed by intense breathing. My vision swims. I am alone in the chaos of your weapons design bureau. There is no escape from this hell.

[Kouralia]

Mm-hmm, that's why police keep shooting until the target's on the ground.

The only reason all Kouralian service personnel carry a pistol is because I couldn't resist issuing every Kouralian Service Person with a bull-pup, double-barreled, over-under, select-fire, metal-storm, revolver-action, armour-piercing 6.5CBJ revolver.

Every time you post that gun I have a mild heart murmur followed by intense breathing. My vision swims. I am alone in the chaos of your weapons design bureau. There is no escape from this hell.

Which weapon?

• The .280 British, Bull-pup, Lolymer, select-fire, short-pistol-gas-operated Assault Rifle,
• the 9mm Bullpup, ETC, CLA, Octaazacubane charge, select-fire, Magnetic-recoil-reduction, 90% efficient muzzle-break Battle Rifle, or
• the bull-pup, double-barreled, over-under, select-fire, metal-storm, revolver-action, armour-piercing 6.5CBJ revolver?

[Gawdzendia]

Every time you post that gun I have a mild heart murmur followed by intense breathing. My vision swims. I am alone in the chaos of your weapons design bureau. There is no escape from this hell.

Which weapon?

• The .280 British, Bull-pup, Lolymer, select-fire, short-pistol-gas-operated Assault Rifle,
• the 9mm Bullpup, ETC, CLA, Octaazacubane charge, select-fire, Magnetic-recoil-reduction, 90% efficient muzzle-break Battle Rifle, or
• the bull-pup, double-barreled, over-under, select-fire, metal-storm, revolver-action, armour-piercing 6.5CBJ revolver?

I figured it'd be apparent.

Also I have no idea what I'm doing.

[Puzikas]

Aqi directed me here.

Some (most?) of you know me already, im going to give my input, one Aqi finds might be important.

A sidearm has minimal usefulness on the modern battlefield. But that doesn't mean it should be functionally ignored.
A soldier who has to carry a handgun and additional ammunition for said handgun will need to carry more weight, or cut weight elsewhere. A military might issue less ammunition for his primary arm if he is issued a pistol; and that is not OK.

The maximum effective range with a handgun is normally between 30-50 meters. While an FBI study gives you that "26 foot rule", that is for defensive handgun situations. Not offensive. When you are out of ammunition with your long arm, need to reload, whatever, and you are THAT close in to THAT many hostiles? Yes, a handgun would be useful. But in an open area when the enemy is 60-70 meters away? Not so much. The whole idea is you are issuing these to an entire SQUAD, mind you. That means there may not be all these lone wolf things everyone thinks about. there are people to help you. Do you not think that if it were such an issue in real life, a handgun would be standard issue for all soldiers?

This does not mean, however, it should be ignored in total. The idea of issuing handguns as standard has been around since the first world war where the long bolt action rifles such as the Mosin and Mausers proved too long and too cumbersome to be used with great effect in trenches. This was, however, at a time where a few extra pounds was a minimal change; almost nothing, as combat loads were already low. If you are a nation that expects to be fighting ala Stalingrad in almost all of your wars, you may want to consider adopting a handgun as a standard weapon, followed by an immediate rethinking of your doctrine that locks you in stalingrad battles.. If you are a nation like mine (Russia-based), it may be a moot point because you have more open areas or longer engagement distances at average.

Handguns are also not too accurate. And yes, I know that there are shots of people doing 220 yards on youtube with factory Glocks, but I dont care. In a combat situation, where your blood is pumping and adrenaline is surging in your veins, you mat not be a great shot. You may miss. And that's something you need to take into account.

A sidearm as a POLICE officer is seriously different.

Any questions? Comments? Complaints? Concerns?

Edit: Good backups that arent a handgun include:
A knife
MORE AMMUNITION
Squadmates

[Purpelia]

The first is not always applicable and the others won't help much when the other guy just stands there and shoots you while you do it.

You can run 6 meters in the time it takes to pull out a pistol. 6 meters is also the distance where your pistol hit probability drops to "useless".

But as I explained that's completely irrelevant. I would not seriously expect to actually kill the guy. That's what my squad mates are there for. What I would want to do with the gun is intimidate or if nothing else give the bad guy something other than shooting me to think about for that moment it takes me to dive out of the way.

[Rich and Corporations]

Evidently the solution to solve this rifle vs. pistol controversy is to have a short barrel low recoil weapon, possibly chambered in a pistol round and capable of automatic fire.

I call it the automatic carbine.

[The Akasha Colony]

You can run 6 meters in the time it takes to pull out a pistol. 6 meters is also the distance where your pistol hit probability drops to "useless".

But as I explained that's completely irrelevant. I would not seriously expect to actually kill the guy. That's what my squad mates are there for. What I would want to do with the gun is intimidate or if nothing else give the bad guy something other than shooting me to think about for that moment it takes me to dive out of the way.

Or in the time it takes you to draw your pistol, he could, you know, shoot you first.

[Puzikas]

Evidently the solution to solve this rifle vs. pistol controversy is to have a short barrel low recoil weapon, possibly chambered in a pistol round and capable of automatic fire.

I call it the automatic carbine.

Not enough range.
Creates more issues than it solves.

[Registug]

Registugian soldiers get issued with pistols because terrorists, anarchists and (worst of all) dissidents in every god damn city.

(My nation turns into more of a dystopia with every passing day)

[Gawdzendia]

Registugian soldiers get issued with pistols because terrorists, anarchists and (worst of all) dissidents in every god damn city.

(My nation turns into more of a dystopia with every passing day)

Just wait, once you're listing 'Homeless' up there with those lot, we should sit down, share a drink over how awful we are to our citizenry.

[Sevvania]

The standard Sevvanian sidearm is the 9mm Morgan Machine Pistol. Due to the limited range of handguns, the Morgan is capable of fully-automatic fire. The reasoning behind this is that volume of fire may improve the chances of hitting the target, or at the very least, send it scrambling for cover.

[Rich and Corporations]

Evidently the solution to solve this rifle vs. pistol controversy is to have a short barrel low recoil weapon, possibly chambered in a pistol round and capable of automatic fire.

I call it the automatic carbine.

Not enough range.
Creates more issues than it solves.

Evidently if you're operating in an area with such tight confinements and high probability of close range combat, the loss in range is worth it.
Besides, infantry rarely kill beyond three hundred meters, and most of their fire is suppressive.