NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #2

[Tule]

Feasibility of issuing sidearms to all troops as a last-last-ditch weapon?

They would be better off with 2 rifle magazines and a Fairbairn-Sykes instead.

Your service rifle should not jam and handguns are so incredibly inaccurate in life-or-death situations that a knife would be more effective.

[Khodoristan]

If they at close enough range for a pistol to be of immediate use and need, something drastically wrong has happened, our they're clearing a building.
If a weapon jams during a building clear, that member of the unit should withdraw to the rear of the unit, clear his jam, and continue. The only person who would really regret a gun jam would be the pointman with his shotgun.

Understand that not all soldiers will be involved in room clearing. Some firefights take place at a few hundred meters. Khodoran forces are deployed to Afghanistan, and the typical engagement envelope is usually between 300-600 meters.

That being said, there are instances where pistols can be used as a last-resort weapon. We think that something is better than nothing.

And yes, we do outfit our troops with 3-4 primary mags and KM-2000's.

[The UK in Exile]

If they at close enough range for a pistol to be of immediate use and need, something drastically wrong has happened, our they're clearing a building.
If a weapon jams during a building clear, that member of the unit should withdraw to the rear of the unit, clear his jam, and continue. The only person who would really regret a gun jam would be the pointman with his shotgun.

Understand that not all soldiers will be involved in room clearing. Some firefights take place at a few hundred meters. Khodoran forces are deployed to Afghanistan, and the typical engagement envelope is usually between 300-600 meters.

That being said, there are instances where pistols can be used as a last-resort weapon. We think that something is better than nothing.

And yes, we do outfit our troops with 3-4 primary mags and KM-2000's.

at 300 meters its about the same actually.

[Tule]

If they at close enough range for a pistol to be of immediate use and need, something drastically wrong has happened, our they're clearing a building.
If a weapon jams during a building clear, that member of the unit should withdraw to the rear of the unit, clear his jam, and continue. The only person who would really regret a gun jam would be the pointman with his shotgun.

Understand that not all soldiers will be involved in room clearing. Some firefights take place at a few hundred meters. Khodoran forces are deployed to Afghanistan, and the typical engagement envelope is usually between 300-600 meters.

That being said, there are instances where pistols can be used as a last-resort weapon. We think that something is better than nothing.

And yes, we do outfit our troops with 3-4 primary mags and KM-2000's.

Handguns are incredibly inaccurate in a life-or death-situation, at ranges of more than 5 meters you might as well be firing blanks.
Police officers who are killed in the line of duty are in 80% of cases shot at less than 2 meters.

In a situation like that you are better off trying to close the gap and bayonet the enemy.

[San-Silvacian]

I issue sidearms as standard to SF troops, MPs, urban jaegers and "Gate keeper"/provincial companies. Others can buy them with their own money if they want.

Our thinking is that primaries jam, sometimes at the wrong time in the wrong place. By providing each service member a 9mm handgun, we give them a last means of defense.

If your gun jams you fucking unjam it. If you are that fucking worried your guns will jam (i.e. m16) then give it a forward assist.

If you issue a pistol to every solider in your military you might as well also give them little stock paper cards with CoD perks on them.

Does this guy have a pistol on him?

These are the troops you issue handguns too

[Khodoristan]

Our thinking is that primaries jam, sometimes at the wrong time in the wrong place. By providing each service member a 9mm handgun, we give them a last means of defense.

If your gun jams you fucking unjam it. If you are that fucking worried your guns will jam (i.e. m16) then give it a forward assist.

If you issue a pistol to every solider in your military you might as well also give them little stock paper cards with CoD perks on them.

Does this guy have a pistol on him?

These are the troops you issue handguns too

No. He does not. But, again, our firearms doctrine is different than the US.

And the fat boy...huehuehue.

[Immoren]

For tank company's HQ.
MBTs for both company CO and 2iC, while company fire support officer rides in his own vehicle. (maybe even in company's FO vehicle and acts as forward observe for company?)
Or Company CO (or 2ic) rides in MBT while 2iC (or co) and company fire support officer shares command IFV/APC?

[Purpelia]

I don't know if this helps. But I have a separate HQ unit at the company level which is identical to the HQ unit in a mechanized infantry company. At that level the commander should be commanding and not fighting.

[Immoren]

completely unrelated pointless trivia. Like in english in finnish person who is in charge of platoon or smaller is leader while person in charge of battalion or larger is commander. But in finnish terminology one in charge of company is not company commander but chief of company/company chief. I guess it's something to do with tribal nature of company.

[The UK in Exile]

completely unrelated pointless trivia. Like in english in finnish person who is in charge of platoon or smaller is leader while person in charge of battalion or larger is commander. But in finnish terminology one in charge of company is not company commander but chief of company/company chief. I guess it's something to do with tribal nature of company.

in english its Platoon Commander. or in england rather, squad leader is more of an americanism.

[San-Silvacian]

If your gun jams you fucking unjam it. If you are that fucking worried your guns will jam (i.e. m16) then give it a forward assist.

If you issue a pistol to every solider in your military you might as well also give them little stock paper cards with CoD perks on them.

Does this guy have a pistol on him?

These are the troops you issue handguns too

No. He does not. But, again, our firearms doctrine is different than the US.

And the fat boy...huehuehue.

Germans

British

Russian

So no, pistols are fucking useless in this 'OMG LIFE R DETH' you speak off.

in all honestly the only pistol carriers in any frontline forces should be the Squad Support Gunner and maybe the Anti-Tank Grenadier, however you can still tell him to suck it up and give him a full sized assault rifle.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

I dunno Purp.
US Lieutenant-Colonels in command of Battalions or undersized Regiments are still fighting troops.

[Immoren]

I don't know if this helps. But I have a separate HQ unit at the company level which is identical to the HQ unit in a mechanized infantry company. At that level the commander should be commanding and not fighting.

Company CO is still so close to front line what should be is different from what is.
...
I remember reading that company grade officers had greatest rates of attrition of all personel groups in Finnish forces during WWII.
I was wondering that has this been common in elsewhere also or did/do others train their officers to fight in more careful manner.

[Kouralia]

I don't know if this helps. But I have a separate HQ unit at the company level which is identical to the HQ unit in a mechanized infantry company. At that level the commander should be commanding and not fighting.

Company CO is still so close to front line what should be is different from what is.
...
I remember reading that company grade officers had greatest rates of attrition of all personel groups in Finnish forces during WWII.
I was wondering that has this been common in elsewhere also or did/do others train their officers to fight in more careful manner.

In WWI the highest rate of casualties was among officers of the ranks 2nd Lieutenant and Lieutenant.

Lead from the front with your rank insignia clearly displayed on your sleeve doesn't work out so well when there're snipers.

EDIT: My history teacher (Ex Lieutenant, Royal Anglian. Current Captain, 7bn Rifles) said one of the first things he was told when coming through the gates was that in a firefight you are the priority target. Every enemy is trying to kill you over any other target in the platoon. That would explain the high casualties.

[Purpelia]

I feel the need to point out that when I say command detail identical to that in motor rifle units I mean a fully loaded BMP-3 but with a 2B9 like gun-mortar instead of the main launcher. The idea I have in both cases is that the company commander should not lead from the front and thus he is issued a primary weapon that is best used to support his troops from a relatively rearward position rather than being in the thick of it.

[Kouralia]

I feel the need to point out that when I say command detail identical to that in motor rifle units I mean a fully loaded BMP-3 but with a 2B9 like gun-mortar instead of the main launcher. The idea I have in both cases is that the company commander should not lead from the front and thus he is issued a primary weapon that is best used to support his troops from a relatively rearward position rather than being in the thick of it.

But he should be leading from the front. At least, I mean, no more than a few hundred meters behind it.

[Purpelia]

I feel the need to point out that when I say command detail identical to that in motor rifle units I mean a fully loaded BMP-3 but with a 2B9 like gun-mortar instead of the main launcher. The idea I have in both cases is that the company commander should not lead from the front and thus he is issued a primary weapon that is best used to support his troops from a relatively rearward position rather than being in the thick of it.

But he should be leading from the front. At least, I mean, no more than a few hundred meters behind it.

At the company level? I'd prefer he stay roughly 2km behind the front. That way he can you know do command stuff like coordinate the platoons and various heavy weapons and support teams.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Hey San, why so passionate about no pistols?

Mind, I'm not arguing against you. In fact, I have to agree. Most troops don't need pistols. Give them to vehicle crews, if you're too cheap to issue carbines.

[The Republic of Lanos]

I issue pistols to officers and those that need it even if they have a rifle or something else to carry/use. If the others want one, they buy it or get issued one if they're required to have one.

[Spirit of Hope]

But he should be leading from the front. At least, I mean, no more than a few hundred meters behind it.

At the company level? I'd prefer he stay roughly 2km behind the front. That way he can you know do command stuff like coordinate the platoons and various heavy weapons and support teams.

How will he communicate with them? or know their positions? Radio has delays and is ambiguous and never contains all of the information. At the company level your officers should be able to observe the fighting first hand, maybe not on the front lines but close, hopefully within a couple hundred feet. At the regimental level your officer should be off of the line, say 1-2km. Because then he is ordering companies to carryout strategic objectives (take the town) not tactical objectives (take that building).

On pistols, everyone in my armed forces gets a one. However it is not required for general infantry to carry it in their combat load. They can make that decision on there own. It is a required part of the dress uniform though.

[Purpelia]

How will he communicate with them? or know their positions? Radio has delays and is ambiguous and never contains all of the information. At the company level your officers should be able to observe the fighting first hand, maybe not on the front lines but close, hopefully within a couple hundred feet. At the regimental level your officer should be off of the line, say 1-2km. Because then he is ordering companies to carryout strategic objectives (take the town) not tactical objectives (take that building).

But why should you have to assign a whole company to take that building? Very specific objectives like that sound to me more like the task of a platoon. A company I feel should have to handle objectives on a grander scale, like say a whole city block at least. After all a company is like 3 platoons + support making for something like ~15 IFV's full of troops.

It just does not make sense to me.

Also, at 1-2km you can still see things quite clearly with binoculars. It's not even really outside of sniper/HMG range.

Also, what would a regimental commander be doing so close to battle? A regiment is just short of a division, several thousand men in size with its own dedicated howitzers and stuff. And that's using WW2 era definitions.

[Spirit of Hope]

How will he communicate with them? or know their positions? Radio has delays and is ambiguous and never contains all of the information. At the company level your officers should be able to observe the fighting first hand, maybe not on the front lines but close, hopefully within a couple hundred feet. At the regimental level your officer should be off of the line, say 1-2km. Because then he is ordering companies to carryout strategic objectives (take the town) not tactical objectives (take that building).

But why should you have to assign a whole company to take that building? Very specific objectives like that sound to me more like the task of a platoon. A company I feel should have to handle objectives on a grander scale, like say a whole city block at least. After all a company is like 3 platoons + support making for something like ~15 IFV's full of troops.

It just does not make sense to me.

Also, at 1-2km you can still see things quite clearly with binoculars. It's not even really outside of sniper/HMG range.

Right a regimental commander will look at a map and say "I need this town taken for this and this reason, 1st company go take it."

1st Company will show up at the town (or more likely will already be deployed and ready) and the company commander will look it over, consider whatever intelligence he has, talk to his platoon leaders and then order units in to take the town.

Platoon leaders will then split their squads up and order them around to best carry out whatever objective has been given to them.

Now binoculars are good, however they limit your field of vision. Hopefully your commander should be able to make out his units movements unaided.

[Purpelia]

Right a regimental commander will look at a map and say "I need this town taken for this and this reason, 1st company go take it."

Company? You mean battalion right?
Regiment/Brigade -> Battalion -> Company

There is no reason why the regimental commander would skip a level like that.

1st Company will show up at the town (or more likely will already be deployed and ready) and the company commander will look it over, consider whatever intelligence he has, talk to his platoon leaders and then order units in to take the town.

Platoon leaders will then split their squads up and order them around to best carry out whatever objective has been given to them.

Now binoculars are good, however they limit your field of vision. Hopefully your commander should be able to make out his units movements unaided.

Everything you just said makes far more sense to me if you were to replace company with battalion and platoon with company to be honest.

[Spirit of Hope]

Right a regimental commander will look at a map and say "I need this town taken for this and this reason, 1st company go take it."

Company? You mean battalion right?
Regiment/Brigade -> Battalion -> Company

There is no reason why the regimental commander would skip a level like that.

Depends on the system. But for the most part your right, call it a slip of the tongue.

1st Company will show up at the town (or more likely will already be deployed and ready) and the company commander will look it over, consider whatever intelligence he has, talk to his platoon leaders and then order units in to take the town.

Platoon leaders will then split their squads up and order them around to best carry out whatever objective has been given to them.

Now binoculars are good, however they limit your field of vision. Hopefully your commander should be able to make out his units movements unaided.

Everything you just said makes far more sense to me if you were to replace company with battalion and platoon with company to be honest.

Thats a mater of scale, towns aren't usually that big. But the point is the same, The captain acts on a more tactical level and should be closer to the engagement.

[Purpelia]

Depends on the system. But for the most part your right, call it a slip of the tongue.

Don't you just hate the whole part where people can't even agree on how to call things? And why does anyone even use regiments any more when brigades are superior?

Thats a mater of scale, towns aren't usually that big. But the point is the same, The captain acts on a more tactical level and should be closer to the engagement.

Let's try and go over this slowly. I think we are talking about the same thing but from different angles.
Basically this is how I see it.
A squad is something you send in to do the most minor tasks like taking one building or clearing one basement.

A platoon consists of multiple squads and any support equipment they need. You task those with larger objectives like holding several buildings, maintaining a checkpoint or landing zone etc. So the commander needs to be right there, within shouting range of his squad commanders.

A company is even larger than that. And more importantly it contains indirect fire weapons such as mortars. It's what gets tasked with holding larger objectives like city blocks (easily several kilometers in diameter). The commander here (still a commander as he does not do too much strategising) is not supposed to be fighting with his troops but coordinating his platoons and support assets. Telling the mortars (and in my case a recoilles rifle squad) what squad to support and how, communicating with HQ for reinforcements and status reports, coordinating with air support if possible and with battalion level mortar batteries etc. So while he needs to be within visual range he also needs to be far enough away that he can actually see the big picture (say the whole 3-4 kilometers in diameter city block). And that I think would mean 1-2 km away from the fighting.

A battalion commander should be farther still, something like 10km away. Because he is going to have the entire town or city district to worry about.

At the brigade level we are talking about someone who has a battery of MLRS launchers and a battery of howitzers at his disposal. He is not even going to be in the town.