OOC: CoPS Map Discussion and Claims

[Hobbiest Republic]

I am requesting that the location of the city of St. Craftian be removed to make the area more updated, since my nation was added, the name of the city was changed, and then subsequently the city went missing, and that location is now known as the Heccannese Crater. It's cool if you want to call PL Poneria, I'm still calling my home Continent Norstralia, and we disagree on that. But this is a cultural thing!

[Lubyak]

I am requesting that the location of the city of St. Craftian be removed to make the area more updated, since my nation was added, the name of the city was changed, and then subsequently the city went missing, and that location is now known as the Heccannese Crater. It's cool if you want to call PL Poneria, I'm still calling my home Continent Norstralia, and we disagree on that. But this is a cultural thing!

I think I've called it Norstralia IC before... But yeah sure, I'll get it done.

[New Zepuha]

CoPS Map App
What name do you wish your nation to have on the map?
Answer: The Grand Imperial Realms

What are the geographic figures of your nation? How large is your nation? Where will you like it to be located?
Answer: The nation is roughly the size of China + Mongolia with small islands off it's coast. Geographically the north is a steppe-mountains region, where the center and south are plains land. [Colonial holding excluded]

What is your nation's capital and major cities, and where are they located?
Answer: Sinro City is the national capital. Port Tudor is located to the southern edges of the coast, while center on the national coast is Port Royale. Geopolis is located 112 km from the center of the country, north of Sinro which holds the mostly central portion of the country.

Do you have any special requests?
Answer: None.

[Lubyak]

Update
--St Craftian removed
--Zepuha added.

[YellowApple]

I'm sorry, but the original FTP server I was using seems to have stopped accepting my uploads, and I can't get in touch with the player who ran it. Imageshack is what I generally use for my images, so I went there, but if anyone has an alternate suggestion of where to host these, I'm welcome to it.

I'd be happy to spin up an account for you on my personal (cloud-hosted) webserver. Space is a bit limited, but the bandwidth is certainly not.

Send over a TG if you're interested.

[Princess Luna]

So, just looking at this I've spotted a major map issue I was not previously aware of and I'm requesting you reduce the size of the new Freethinkers and Midlonian colonies on the map. I've only just seen them, I'd previously thought they were small islands in line with the player requests. These are nations the size of goddamn France.

Answer: The Freethinker Commonwealth (localised trading/agrarian colony requested again, to be called Nova Olympia)

How big do you want your nation to be?
Answer: However big the Islands are, its all good.

What geography do you want your nation to have?
Answer: Whatever the geography is, its all good

CoPS Map App
What name do you wish your nation to have on the map?
Answer: Nova Ilini

What are the geographic figures of your nation? How large is your nation? Where will you like it to be located?
Answer: 20,000 km². Somewhere central or near other active states (communists need not apply).

What is your nation's capital and major cities, and where are they located?
Answer: Aequus, Captail, coastal. Amand, second city near the land borders. Honoratus, coastal.

Do you have any special requests?
Answer: When considering the geography please think “Singapore” or “Malaysia” as this is designed to be more an oversized trading outpost and excuse to interact with more nations.

What you've given Midlonia is an order of magnitude greater in area than what he asked for, and stops other players having such a location in the future.

Because secondary maps have already been produced, please shrink those islands in the Valeran to 32% their current length in proportion (to reduce area by a factor of 10) and add new islands as required to compensate. I have prepared an approximation of the correction to be implemented to work from, without the new islands as suggested.

I'd like to remind people that while I am ICly in conflict with Midlonia, I am not with Freethinkers, and my own claim (Princess Luna, Nightspire) on this map is smaller even than these revised islands.

EDIT: I see they've already altered their requests. I would like to voice by absolute objection to that much pony lands territory being apportioned to nations not resident in the region and request this change be implemented immediately.

I would also like to ask other Pony Lands region players for their opinions on the matter of non-regional players claiming large areas of the map.

There is no point in purging inactive nations when you are granting large swaths of the region to nations with vast and extensively documented external holdings that are actually bigger than our entire map, this here is the Freestian home continent, superimposed on Pony Lands and neighboring regions (!)

[The Freethinkers]

OOC (redundant tag for searching only):

I can appreciate Luna's concern, but would note the following;

These lands are of an established size, were fully occupied prior and and are now presumably occupied by whatever remained of the previous imploded polities. Changing the map to suit an OOC irritation is excessive.

And on the points above:

These are not large swathes of land. These are isolated island chains of reasonable but not substantial size, capable of supporting a resident population larger than some island to a degree of self-sufficiency but in comparison to the extant territories of both existing Pony Land nations and other NS nation territories they are objectively small holdings.

Which leads on to the second point. There is a substantial amount of territory left for any new comers or similar, so any objection on the grounds of 'squeezing out' holds about as much water as a cracked eggcup.

Myself and Midlonia are powers who do not need to land grab. We do however have a policy of peacefully acquiring colonies for trade and regional influence, because we are PMT superpowers and seeking out such opportunities is how we do it. We'ed have no objection to anyone else willing to come in and actively roleplay such expansion, and to be honest this feels like certain powers trying to exert control where none is required or needed.

If Luna wishes to change the rules going forward, fine, but I'd object to any change to our claims that serve no purpose either ICly or OOCly.

[Princess Luna]

OOC (redundant tag for searching only):

I can appreciate Luna's concern, but would note the following;

These lands are of an established size, were fully occupied prior and and are now presumably occupied by whatever remained of the previous imploded polities. Changing the map to suit an OOC irritation is excessive.

The player is still active, albeit a generalite now, but has previously has RPed if not extensively and possibly will again, in your case. Certainly RPing that New Orcrimmar has imploded is rather impolite. (not sure why it was purged to be honest, any particular criteria you used Lubyak?)

Happily for Midlonia that island did actually have an ex-nation that is now dead going on two years, so that convention works there.

[The Freethinkers]

OOC: If they request to come back, then Ill grin and bear it and bugger off.

Until that point...well. As discussed in the channel perhaps a rule change is needed.

[Kouralia]

OOC (redundant tag for searching only):

I can appreciate Luna's concern, but would note the following;

These lands are of an established size, were fully occupied prior and and are now presumably occupied by whatever remained of the previous imploded polities. Changing the map to suit an OOC irritation is excessive.

The player is still active, albeit a generalite now, but has previously has RPed if not extensively and possibly will again, in your case. Certainly RPing that New Orcrimmar has imploded is rather impolite. (not sure why it was purged to be honest, any particular criteria you used Lubyak?)

Happily for Midlonia that island did actually have an ex-nation that is now dead going on two years, so that convention works there.

I think he checked how long it had been since someone had interacted in RPing, to keep it so active nations would be on it unless they'd done something important enough to the history of enough nations (e.g. Gawd, who managed to, in a single RP: have riots in Kouralia, declare war on CEH, nearly declare war with HR, and sink a Herdite Boomer).

[Danarian]

Ok, if you guys want outsiders' 2¢...
Personally, I don't think either claim is too large. According to the scale given, those islands are roughly the size of the state of Connecticut or Delaware, not the size of France. You should be able to drive across that island in less than an hour. Now, that said, if New Orcrimmar still exists, they should be contacted before their lands are given away. That is just common courtesy.

[Lubyak]

I would just like to point out that of the nations that have been removed from the map, none have messaged me to inform me that they wish to remain on the map, and want me to readd them. Most of the ones I removed have since CTE or something else. Of course, if anyone arrives to say that they wish to be readded I would readd them, and if it has to be Freet or Midlonia removed then so be it. Kour is correct as to how the purge went, every nation that was removed, I checked. In general, I removed those who hadn't RP'd or been active, as I felt that it would be better to have more active nations than continue to hold land for those who simply didn't RP. Of course, this had exceptions, and players who had done something that majorly effected the region (e.g Gawdz, Muffinvania, etc.) then I kept them on. Of course, yes, this is subjective, but I had to make a call, and I did. As I said, Rani, yours is the first complaint I've had aired to me, outside of Maven who believed I removed one of her puppets, but in that situation I am reasonable certain that the puppet simply slipped through the cracks during my periods of inactivity. (Note: If anyone else has noticed that their add has seemingly been ignored, post and I'll do my best to rectify the problem)

To add on to Freet's point, I would have to say I agree. There is still plenty of room left in both the North and South, and I have plans to add even more continents to the North, generating even more room. In comparison, I feel that the size of both the Midlonian and Freethinker colonies combined have removed relatively little space for both region natives, and outside players. To me, the map is very much a tool for facilitating RP by both giving players a sense of the geography, and in that sense, I feel absolutely fine and even supportive of those not in the region getting positions (even geographically significant ones) on the map, so long as it encourages RP.

For now, as it seems that only Rani has major objections to the size of the Midlonian and Freethinker colonies, and my personal feeling that allowing significant colonies from regional outsiders can do much to encourage RP (especially in light of the relative lack of in-region requests for map space), I'm going to say that the colonies can stay as they are. Of course, if anyone who was removed wants to come back, they are more than welcome to post here or TG me to request that I add them back on. However, as I said, the main purpose of this map to me is to encourage RP, and I will prioritise that over anything else. I welcome continued post on this matter. If it appears that I was wrong in my assertion that those upset by the presence of outside colonies are a minority, then I will--of course--reconsider.

[PL Wintervale]

CoPS Map App
What name do you wish your nation to have on the map?
Answer: Wintervale

What are the geographic figures of your nation? How large is your nation? Where will you like it to be located?
Answer: this

What is your nation's capital and major cities, and where are they located?
Answer: Circle dot: Capital city of snowdale; Purple dots (can be any location):Leekrun, Applehaven, Coldice, Detrot City, Fillypines, Penguinport

Do you have any special requests?
Answer: Nope

[Crystal Spires]

I think that Midlonia having that much space on the map when he won't even RP ponies is absurd and it displaces potential pony RPers. No, I agree with Rani also when I say that this is too big of a claim on a regional map. Let us not forget this is for Roleplaying specifically in the Pony Lands. RPing in our regions is fine, but having a significant portion of the pony lands with no ponies is obscene.

[Crystal Spires]

Also I have a recommendation, we need to collect demographic information on the pony lands, and we must jigger this in a way such as ponies actually make up the majority of numbers in the pony lands. If there continues to be a vast minority of ponies, we are in principle doing our region a disservice.

[Legokiller]

Personally, the whole colony claim will be insane with one tries to make it the size of Eurasia and make false claims of being the best of everything, more so than the actual regional powers. But enough common sense of denying that guy, let's get onto Midlonia. Even when midlonia can rp an anthro pony that could be fine, it just ridiculous of a flat out switching that to nekos as the majority. While I'm fine with a neko race, there's no explanation about why they're the majority and how is just a way to cheapen out any rps on ponies, because he didn't want to. At this point, you're better off not getting a colony if you refuse to rp ponies.

Furthermore, ponies at this point aren't wogs (or primitive tribes of stone spears) in the grey zones, they're modern folks with cities. This in mind, said colonial power won't have a "Cortez" of wiping ponies out to barely any is at the start of the claim. As such, I agree on maven and rani, since you can't own much land with the native city-states in the way without some rp action, and IC consequences. Now a worldbuild explanation on why the ponies are a minority in a believe fashion could be fine, the bold is super important.

As for the wipe of inactive nations, I think they need to be gone if CTE or not interested in rps. Note that the important ones may get a 50/50 chance of coming back a year or 2 or less, or nope.avi.

[Midlonia]

I will point out that I was also encouraged to find alternatives that were still in keeping with the region (sheep and goat were bandied at me about half a dozen times) so I decided to do a little digging and looking around and eventually decided down the "neko"/Beastman route (Which I'm changing the name of as per the next post to The Onca due to them being Jaguars in origin), which will lead into it all further.

Surprisingly I'd like to have a bit of storyline to develop the entire concept, native civilization, and other elements. As I've stated to Legokiller several times now "It's all in flux" meaning it is subject to change depending on where the story goes, how it's written and any potential responses from those involved. The vast majority of Nova Ilini and the Onca are currently inside my head and on a small notepad, this means it will take time to translate and weave into a consistent narrative.

So, let's answer some of the concerns...

Have I refused at any point to RP ponies if they come up?

No. As stated multiple times in chat, so please stop using this as a non-existent stick to beat me with.

Have I stated I will simply wipe them out?

No. Really not my style.

Is there a reason they're now at a tribal level as hinted at so far?

Yes.

Will there be a reason for the ponies being a minority?

I've already got at least two options in mind if that remains the case. Both will be interesting to explore and write.

----------------

Considering where and who these complaints come from I am quite saddened that people who strive to write out long and complex stories leading to big reveals won't allow others to do it for their own stuff and instead demand explanation and introduce every last facet to the RP immediately.

It's also worse when one considers The Freethinkers is also in a similar boat to me, but because he's declared (somewhere) that "There are pony residents" nobody says anything. I've yet to find an IC post with a pony character. Indeed so long as there is some form of "pony ethnic group" then we should be fine.

There a reason I'm being singled out because I'm actually writing things?

[Lubyak]

I think that Midlonia having that much space on the map when he won't even RP ponies is absurd and it displaces potential pony RPers. No, I agree with Rani also when I say that this is too big of a claim on a regional map. Let us not forget this is for Roleplaying specifically in the Pony Lands. RPing in our regions is fine, but having a significant portion of the pony lands with no ponies is obscene.

I have dressed this already. In comparison to existing map space, especially the room for growth I have in the North means that while significant, the presence of the Midlonian and Freethinker colonies does not really displace potential pony RPers. I would also point out that I have added pony nations as well, and I have not been choosing to add external over internal at all. If there were more members of the region who wish to join the map, and there were actual problems with space then I'd see the problem, but for now I fail to see the issue.

Also I have a recommendation, we need to collect demographic information on the pony lands, and we must jigger this in a way such as ponies actually make up the majority of numbers in the pony lands. If there continues to be a vast minority of ponies, we are in principle doing our region a disservice.

I'd be fine with this, but: a) I feel like it will be nigh impossible to get anything reasonably complete due to the sheer number of people in the region, and b) I don't see why we need majority pony. Yes, the region is Pony Lands, but I don't see why this is a problem. As I've said, this map is intended to encourage RP, and the policy in CoPS has always been that you don't need to have a large pony population or even a pony population at all. All you need to have is a recognition that sentient ponies and what's implied by them to exist. I don't see why we need a majority pony population at all across the entire region. The fact that it would seem that most of the sentient pony population is concentrated in this region seems fine enough.

Personally, the whole colony claim will be insane with one tries to make it the size of Eurasia and make false claims of being the best of everything, more so than the actual regional powers. But enough common sense of denying that guy, let's get onto Midlonia. Even when midlonia can rp an anthro pony that could be fine, it just ridiculous of a flat out switching that to nekos as the majority. While I'm fine with a neko race, there's no explanation about why they're the majority and how is just a way to cheapen out any rps on ponies, because he didn't want to. At this point, you're better off not getting a colony if you refuse to rp ponies.

I don't see the problem at all. Why can't this island have a majority Neko population? It seems fine to me, and I don't see how it cheapens pony rp at all, nor why it should exclude him from being involved in this region/group map, especially when his appearance is generating RPs.

Furthermore, ponies at this point aren't wogs (or primitive tribes of stone spears) in the grey zones, they're modern folks with cities. This in mind, said colonial power won't have a "Cortez" of wiping ponies out to barely any is at the start of the claim. As such, I agree on maven and rani, since you can't own much land with the native city-states in the way without some rp action, and IC consequences. Now a worldbuild explanation on why the ponies are a minority in a believe fashion could be fine, the bold is super important.

I don't see why there can't be a lost civilisation or something in the stone age. If Midlonia had said they were humans in the Stone Age, I don't think that anyone would be complaining. I also have to agree with Midlonia in his post, I don't see why he's being singled out for this. If we're demanding that everything be explained, why haven't we been hounding everyone else who has a colony or holding in the region? We tend to handwave how nations appear and reappear constantly, so I don't see why we're demanding things from Midlonia that we don't demand for anyone else.

As for the wipe of inactive nations, I think they need to be gone if CTE or not interested in rps. Note that the important ones may get a 50/50 chance of coming back a year or 2 or less, or nope.avi.

I have tried to be as fair as possible when it comes to wiping nations. As no one has complained about them until now, and even then the people complaining aren't those who have had their nation removed, I feel like my decisions have been fine overall.

[Turpyro]

Hello everyone, your friendly Open-Borders, Non-Federate Danarian colony here. If either Midlonia or Freethinkers would like some assistance in reducing their pony population, I would be happy to take the population off your hands canonically. Turpyro is an Open Port, where all species are welcome to visit, or to seek citizenship in our democratic forum! We readily encourage trade and will happily entertain diplomatic, as well as academic missions from foreign countries.

[The Freethinkers]

OOC: Thanks Turpyro, but that wasn't quite the issue. We have and are happy with our pony population. Big free cosmopolitan society you know

[Kouralia]

I think that Midlonia having that much space on the map when he won't even RP ponies is absurd and it displaces potential pony RPers. No, I agree with Rani also when I say that this is too big of a claim on a regional map. Let us not forget this is for Roleplaying specifically in the Pony Lands. RPing in our regions is fine, but having a significant portion of the pony lands with no ponies is obscene.

When did he say he wouldn't RP Ponies? I'm not trying to take sides, just kinda confused, so if you could quote the post/logs that'd be appreciated.
While, yes, having loads of colonies can be a bad thing, it isn't in this instance. Unless there is an immense demand for space by pony nations (and there isn't) to the point that we can't fit them all on the map, I hardly see how it is bad to have more active RPers unless they affect the theme of the region. OOCly, as said, the lack of demand for pony RPing isn't making other people feel like they can't join, and I don't think we're squeezing people out. I mean, yes this is a map for the PL region, but it's for the forum-side isn't it? For people who RP. ICly, it's not being handwaved. Midlonia has a reasonable explanation as to how it's been formed, and has RP'd more with this colony thus far than other nations have despite being here without doing anything.

[Kouralia]

Also I have a recommendation, we need to collect demographic information on the pony lands, and we must jigger this in a way such as ponies actually make up the majority of numbers in the pony lands. If there continues to be a vast minority of ponies, we are in principle doing our region a disservice.

And then what, kick out anyone with a minority of ponies?

[YellowApple]

As I mentioned yesterday on IRC, I think an acceptable compromise would be to only enforce pony-majority requirements for the south-central and south-east continents while allowing non-pony-majority nations to occupy islands and other continents. Given that the south-central continent houses the RP-canonical Equestria, and that the south-east continent is rather close in proximity, I'd figure that native pony populations will be more concentrated on those two landmasses anyway. Other continents are much further away; it's easier to justify low pony populations further out from those two main continents (the GPH bing the significant exception in the southwest), especially in the North Pony Lands.

This addresses the low pony populations relative to other species (since other portions of the region can be argued to be "peripheral" and not quite the real homeland of ponykind), while allowing non-pony-majority nations and colonies to exist on the map (hence being liberal about which players can have map representation) in a place that makes IC sense. It also minimizes canon clobbering.

Whether or not this is an acceptable solution is up to everyone else; this is merely a recommendation. I think both Maven et. al. and Lubyak et. al. have valid points, and I figure this would address both sides' grievances appropriately, with minimal fuss and maximal fairness.

Whether or not this compromise should affect existing non-pony-majority claims within the southeast portion of the region is up to everyone else; I'm relatively indifferent so long as the YellowApplan flying city migration paths are still represented. I'd figure that this should only take effect for new applications so as to minimize fuss, but I don't feel strongly about that.

[The Republic of Lanos]

CoPS Map App
What name do you wish your nation to have on the map?
Answer: It's going to be a state: The State of Marizona, Lanos

What are the geographic figures of your nation? How large is your nation? Where will you like it to be located?
Answer: I would like my old location back if that possible minus that large island across the water. Give it kindly to someone else if they so wish. As for the geographic features, take the terrain of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and West Texas and make the place like that if anything's possible. Lake Bronco is the first lake in the north and the second lake is Lake Salt Lick.

What is your nation's capital and major cities, and where are they located?
Answer: State capital and largest city: Los Pegasus, located at the center part of the eastern shores of the state. Another large city, close to the river at the western border, is called Sandy Eggo. One's called San Prancisco north close to the border near the shores. For one more city to name, go with Philomena a bit close to the southern border. Others, if you can locate them if you please, are Salt Lick City (put that near Lake Salt Lick), Las Zebras, and Flankramento.

Do you have any special requests?
Answer: Add some mountains to give it the terrain possible for the Southwestern US feel?

To note, per Spires request, the demographics of the state (formerly a territory per some RP with Zeph) is 90% pony, 9% human, 1% other non-human. Population is around 30 million for the whole state.

(DAMNIT)

[Sinovet]

Would it be acceptable for one player to have two stakes on the map? Sinovet is technically off the map, but I would like to place Arkesh on the map. Is that ok?