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OMGeverynameistaken
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Postby OMGeverynameistaken » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:55 pm

Technically speaking, it was accurate indirect-fire artillery which killed the fortification. 18th and 19th century fortifications were quite effectively designed to deal with direct-fire artillery, by the simple expedient of MASSIVE earthworks between the fort walls and the opposing artillery. Sadly, there are very few surviving examples of the intricate earthworks built around the star forts of the 18th century, but essentially the primary defensive mechanism against artillery was a burm built up to the height of the fortress walls, low enough that artillery inside the fort could fire over it, but high enough to make direct fire against the walls all but impossible.

Which was why so few battles ended with storming of fortifications. It was VERY difficult to take a star fort, so typically what one did was wait a predetermined time for the defenders to surrender (usually dictated by the estimated amount of food in the fort), at which point the defenders, having made their token defense, were permitted an honorable surrender, disarmed, and allowed to march home. Of course, if you forced an opponent to storm the fortification you could expect no mercy for anybody inside.

It was accurate plunging fire that made the massive, permanent, fortification less effective.

Field fortifications, however, are still quite common and very useful.
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The Amyclae
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Postby The Amyclae » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:56 pm

The Grand World Order wrote:OP Restrepo, anyone?

(It's in parts, because the English full version got taken down.)

The establishment of a fortified defensive position changed the outcome of the US's operations in the Korengal Valley of Afghanistan. To say that forts have no use it utter crap, sorry.

Hey, if you want to call an observation post a "fort," sure...

I'm not saying that digging a foxhole, or throwing together a prefab is not a possibility. Having a little concrete facility (like a bunker with some slits for firing or someshit) is done all the time. But building a permanent facility (or series of facilities) that can successfully defend a sizable quantity of forces isn't done. Forts, as I understand them, were strategically significant. They were the focus of campaigns and the reasons to sue for peace or declare victory. Saying that some OP has that same sort of heft, though, risks making the word "fort" be... Anything.
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The Grand World Order
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Postby The Grand World Order » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:00 pm

The Amyclae wrote:Hey, if you want to call an observation post a "fort," sure...

I'm not saying that digging a foxhole, or throwing together a prefab is not a possibility. Having a little concrete facility (like a bunker with some slits for firing or someshit) is done all the time. But building a permanent facility (or series of facilities) that can successfully defend a sizable quantity of forces isn't done. Forts, as I understand them, were strategically significant. They were the focus of campaigns and the reasons to sue for peace or declare victory. Saying that some OP has that same sort of heft, though, risks making the word "fort" be... Anything.


Then there's Singapore, which, I understand, is essentially a city mixed with a fortress.
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:03 pm

I'm not sure why that's controversial. But that's not a disagreement.

In peacetime, a military force like a division is housed in a military base. It's facilities are protected in various ways to prevent infiltrators, of course, and are equipped with all sorts of shelter, but it is understood that you're not going to fight your war from your peacetime base.

In battle you want the unit - say, the division - to be spread out in a wide area. They can hardly effectively use their weapons and training if they're huddling like wimps in a tiny fort.

But for wartime you might have a complex network of permanent defenses - for example, bunkers, bomb shelters, Gorchak bunkers, minefields, anti-tank obstacles, which will for example serve to hold off an enemy for a few days until maneuver units arrrive. Field fortifications (like trenches) can then be built to augment these and support them. This can stretch for dozens of kilometers.

And it is possible to have such a fortified area to be linked administratively to the division that'll fight there in wartime.

This is not as shiny as a 19th-century fort, but these are dead.

That said, firebases are still sort-of-permanent (you can sit there for years) and can be called "fortresses" of a sort.
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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:13 pm

The Grand World Order wrote:Then there's Singapore, which, I understand, is essentially a city mixed with a fortress.


:eyebrow: Could you kindly clarify that?

I haven't really seen any modern-day fortifications in Singapore even though I live there. Most of these so-called fortifications existed during the Colonial-era and were built by the British to defend Singapore. Fat lot of good these things did when the Japanese invaded.
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The Grand World Order
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Postby The Grand World Order » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:29 pm

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
The Grand World Order wrote:Then there's Singapore, which, I understand, is essentially a city mixed with a fortress.


:eyebrow: Could you kindly clarify that?

I haven't really seen any modern-day fortifications in Singapore even though I live there. Most of these so-called fortifications existed during the Colonial-era and were built by the British to defend Singapore. Fat lot of good these things did when the Japanese invaded.


It's something I heard from a fellow NSer who has experience with the Singaporean Army, will clarify later.
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Kouralia
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Postby Kouralia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:12 am

The Reliquary wrote:
Kouralia wrote:Incidently, would someone look at my prev post (near the top of this page), please? I fear my queries have been covered over by the foundations for the forts you're so happily arguing over...

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Kouralia wrote:APC/IFV - Patria AMV.


Okay, I'll start taking a look at those

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Kouralia wrote:You sound exactly like the ex-squadie staff at my Cadet unit.

Not sure if that is a good thing.

One of them has a medal for bravery and both of them are among the most respected staff members at the school, out of like 500: so I'd say it probably is. Oh, and one of them owns an MG42, a Chinese AK knock-off and a Walther P38. (thus making him awesome)
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Mikoyan-Guryevich
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Postby Mikoyan-Guryevich » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:29 am

The Grand World Order wrote:
The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
:eyebrow: Could you kindly clarify that?

I haven't really seen any modern-day fortifications in Singapore even though I live there. Most of these so-called fortifications existed during the Colonial-era and were built by the British to defend Singapore. Fat lot of good these things did when the Japanese invaded.


It's something I heard from a fellow NSer who has experience with the Singaporean Army, will clarify later.

It isn't true. Singapore has a lot of military establishments in a very small area but it's a stretch of the imagination to say it's a fortified city.
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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:41 am

Mikoyan-Guryevich wrote:It isn't true. Singapore has a lot of military establishments in a very small area but it's a stretch of the imagination to say it's a fortified city.


What MiG said. ^
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

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Emerada
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Postby Emerada » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:00 am

I have a question about airship. I know it's obsolete technology, but I'd like to use it in my role-playing. What do you guy think would be a role of airship in modern world combat, giving that this airship is state of art vehicle with much better payload than their ancestors, minimum leakage, and more agile.

I'm thinking to use it in role-playing as airfield establishment unit, a fleet of airships deploy to secured ground, carrying temporary airfield facilities that could establish one in a week or so, I think.
Last edited by Emerada on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:12 am

The Amyclae wrote:
The Grand World Order wrote:OP Restrepo, anyone?

(It's in parts, because the English full version got taken down.)

The establishment of a fortified defensive position changed the outcome of the US's operations in the Korengal Valley of Afghanistan. To say that forts have no use it utter crap, sorry.

Hey, if you want to call an observation post a "fort," sure...

I'm not saying that digging a foxhole, or throwing together a prefab is not a possibility. Having a little concrete facility (like a bunker with some slits for firing or someshit) is done all the time. But building a permanent facility (or series of facilities) that can successfully defend a sizable quantity of forces isn't done. Forts, as I understand them, were strategically significant. They were the focus of campaigns and the reasons to sue for peace or declare victory. Saying that some OP has that same sort of heft, though, risks making the word "fort" be... Anything.

Permanent positions were made obsolete when missiles became accurate to the meter. Once you know where the position is, it's not hard to hit it. Which is why most modern doctrines involve a "Shoot and scoot", which essencialy makes it so your forces are harder to hit. Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.

And, if anyone references the fixed facilities in Afghanastan, the Talaban don't have the equipment, to destroy a fixed position. They're running on Russian left-overs....
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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:14 am

Emerada wrote:I have a question about airship. I know it's obsolete technology, but I'd like to use it in my role-playing. What do you guy think would be a role of airship in modern world combat, giving that this airship is state of art vehicle with much better payload than their ancestors, minimum leakage, and more agile.

I'm thinking to use it in role-playing as airfield establishment unit, a fleet of airships deploy to secured ground, carrying temporary airfield facilities that could establish one in a week or so, I think.

Strategic bomber on undefended positions, or heavy airlift in minimum risk areas.
Beyond that....I can't see a use for them....
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:38 am

Permanent positions were made obsolete when missiles became accurate to the meter. Once you know where the position is, it's not hard to hit it. Which is why most modern doctrines involve a "Shoot and scoot", which essencialy makes it so your forces are harder to hit. Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.


Missiles are also expensive.

If it takes me five hours and some concrete to build a position, and that takes a $150,000 missile to destroy... well then.

Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.


Isn't it awesome that this isn't how fortifications work?
Last edited by Allanea on Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:39 am

Beyond that....I can't see a use for them....


Small, drone dirigibles are also used IRL for artillery spotting.
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The Anglo-Saxon Empire
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Postby The Anglo-Saxon Empire » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:21 am

Kouralia wrote:
The Anglo-Saxon Empire wrote:Not sure if that is a good thing.

One of them has a medal for bravery and both of them are among the most respected staff members at the school, out of like 500: so I'd say it probably is. Oh, and one of them owns an MG42, a Chinese AK knock-off and a Walther P38. (thus making him awesome)

Well than thank you.
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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:19 am

Allanea wrote:
Beyond that....I can't see a use for them....


Small, drone dirigibles are also used IRL for artillery spotting.

Yeah, they could be used for scouting....But if they're seen, they're screwed completely...
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:22 am

Allanea wrote:
Permanent positions were made obsolete when missiles became accurate to the meter. Once you know where the position is, it's not hard to hit it. Which is why most modern doctrines involve a "Shoot and scoot", which essencialy makes it so your forces are harder to hit. Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.


Missiles are also expensive.

If it takes me five hours and some concrete to build a position, and that takes a $150,000 missile to destroy... well then.

Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.


Isn't it awesome that this isn't how fortifications work?

Against an enemy that actualy has the tech to destroy your fortifications (Even a small bunker buster...), they're largely useless. Doctrines against countries like the US and Russia, who have the manpower, and technology to easily crush heavily fortified areas, would involve alot of shoot and scoot.
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
I am a Magnificent Titan who likes to Devour Heroes
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Galla-
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Postby Galla- » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:22 am

Jagalonia wrote:
The Amyclae wrote:Hey, if you want to call an observation post a "fort," sure...

I'm not saying that digging a foxhole, or throwing together a prefab is not a possibility. Having a little concrete facility (like a bunker with some slits for firing or someshit) is done all the time. But building a permanent facility (or series of facilities) that can successfully defend a sizable quantity of forces isn't done. Forts, as I understand them, were strategically significant. They were the focus of campaigns and the reasons to sue for peace or declare victory. Saying that some OP has that same sort of heft, though, risks making the word "fort" be... Anything.

Permanent positions were made obsolete when missiles became accurate to the meter. Once you know where the position is, it's not hard to hit it. Which is why most modern doctrines involve a "Shoot and scoot", which essencialy makes it so your forces are harder to hit. Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.


If you're wasting guided missiles on slit trenches and foxholes, then I've already won the war.
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The Anglo-Saxon Empire
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Postby The Anglo-Saxon Empire » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:07 pm

Galla- wrote:
Jagalonia wrote:Permanent positions were made obsolete when missiles became accurate to the meter. Once you know where the position is, it's not hard to hit it. Which is why most modern doctrines involve a "Shoot and scoot", which essencialy makes it so your forces are harder to hit. Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.


If you're wasting guided missiles on slit trenches and foxholes, then I've already won the war.

That has to be the third time you said that. Granted it is true every time.
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Galla-
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Postby Galla- » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:18 pm

The Anglo-Saxon Empire wrote:
Galla- wrote:
If you're wasting guided missiles on slit trenches and foxholes, then I've already won the war.

That has to be the third time you said that. Granted it is true every time.


Probably and yes it is.

Prefabricated or infantry laid fortifications (trenches, pillboxes, etc.) are the cheapest and quickest force multipliers you can get. It might take three hours for an infantryman to dig a fighting pit. In that pit, he is protected from 152mm and 120mm fires outside a 15m radius, whereas in the open, the casualty radius of 152mm HEF is roughly 100m.

That's nearly a factor of 7.
Last edited by Galla- on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fashiontopia wrote:Look don't come here talking bad about Americans, that will get you cussed out faster than relativity.

Besides: Most posters in this thread are Americans, and others who are non-Americans have no problems co-existing so shut that trap...

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Kouralia
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Postby Kouralia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:22 pm

Okay, two minor problems, unrelated to my horrendously complicated (for me) military restructuring. My friend has some sort of fetish at the moment for swarms of midget tanks (originally to be crewed by specially-recruited, vertically-challenged special forces units), and almost nothing I can say to him can convince him it's a bad idea. His tank has gone through multiple design changes: originally it was in a layout similar to the Whippet Medium tank in that it had a rear mounted turret. However the problems did not stop there as this tank mounted a 40mm main gun and a 7.62 coaxially, was crewed by one man (driver, gunner, commander and loader in one) and operated by an xbox controller. This went through numerous changes, mostly brought about by me using arguments such as 'how will he drive, aim, load, spot targets, communicate with friendly forces and oversee the overall performance of the tank within the operation, at once?' and it is now similar to this:

Size-wise, it's about as tall as a Panzer 1 command variant, probably a bit longer (about the length of a CVR(T)). The vehicle mounts some form of recoilless rifle and the 7.62 MG, now crewed by two soldiers (driver + commander/gunner/loader) augmented by aim assistance systems and an auto loader. The vehicle is (I believe) oriented in a standard manner (engine to the rear) with the turret to the front and is not NBC protected.

Can anyone think of either improvements for it, or critiscism for his 'armoured infantry' idea?

The second one is more simple: the Grid Square Removal Service (M270 MLRS) claims to be able to damage 1km2, how bad would this damage be? Would tanks be knocked out? Would they be annihilated? Would it just be infantry ion the open killed, everyone else shaken badly?
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Radictistan
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Postby Radictistan » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:39 pm

I'm not an expert on artillery, but I don't think there's a saturation anti-tank option for MLRS. From what I've read the "Grid Square Removal" is with DPIM which does not look like it would be useful against Main Battle Tanks.

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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:41 pm

Galla- wrote:
Jagalonia wrote:Permanent positions were made obsolete when missiles became accurate to the meter. Once you know where the position is, it's not hard to hit it. Which is why most modern doctrines involve a "Shoot and scoot", which essencialy makes it so your forces are harder to hit. Really, if you're sitting in one place for months at a time in a warzone, you're asking to get your ass blown up.


If you're wasting guided missiles on slit trenches and foxholes, then I've already won the war.

I'm not talking about slit trenches and foxholes. Standard artillery munitions work great against those. I'm talking about heavily fortified complexes. Like the maginot line, or some such.
EDIT: Also, the Carl Gustaf 84mm does have earth penetrating rounds. It looks cool watching a bunker explode from the inside.
Last edited by Jagalonia on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:43 pm

Radictistan wrote:I'm not an expert on artillery, but I don't think there's a saturation anti-tank option for MLRS. From what I've read the "Grid Square Removal" is with DPIM which does not look like it would be useful against Main Battle Tanks.

If it comes straight down on the tank (Which artillery munitions do...) It'll be a kill. If the shell lands beside the tank, you might get a mobility kill, but the tank will still be (Reletavely) operational.
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
I am a Magnificent Titan who likes to Devour Heroes
All tech.

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Galla-
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Postby Galla- » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:57 pm

Jagalonia wrote:
Galla- wrote:
If you're wasting guided missiles on slit trenches and foxholes, then I've already won the war.

I'm not talking about slit trenches and foxholes. Standard artillery munitions work great against those. I'm talking about heavily fortified complexes. Like the maginot line, or some such.
EDIT: Also, the Carl Gustaf 84mm does have earth penetrating rounds. It looks cool watching a bunker explode from the inside.


Oh.

Using guided missiles on cheap concrete fortifications and pillboxes.

Still a waste and I still win. Good job.

Watch this video please.

Semi-permanent fortifications constructed from earth and timber provide extensive protection from artillery. They can be prepared in less than 12 hours, too.

Jagalonia wrote:
Radictistan wrote:I'm not an expert on artillery, but I don't think there's a saturation anti-tank option for MLRS. From what I've read the "Grid Square Removal" is with DPIM which does not look like it would be useful against Main Battle Tanks.

If it comes straight down on the tank (Which artillery munitions do...) It'll be a kill. If the shell lands beside the tank, you might get a mobility kill, but the tank will still be (Reletavely) operational.


Optics will be damaged, the gun barrel may be inoperable, smoke grenade launchers can become damaged, and so can vision blocks, etc. The tank will be incapable of fighting. If anything, with side skirts, a mobility kill on the tracks or running gear will be the least likely outcome.

Of course you can armour vision blocks and optics, but still.
Last edited by Galla- on Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Hello humans. I am Sporekin, specifically a European Umber-Brown Puffball (or more formally, Lycoperdon umbrinum). Ask me anything.
Fashiontopia wrote:Look don't come here talking bad about Americans, that will get you cussed out faster than relativity.

Besides: Most posters in this thread are Americans, and others who are non-Americans have no problems co-existing so shut that trap...

New Nicksyllvania - Unjustly Deleted 6/14/11

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