Need help with a new design. (Infantry)

[Paddy O Fernature]

Not sure if this is the correct sub forum for this, but I didn't think It belonged in any of the IC threads.

Anyway, I am working on a new armor design for my nation and was wondering if I could get some general constructive feedback from the public on it's current design. I hope to modify it some more before it goes to "paint" and gets accessorized and detailed.

This is a MT suit that is going to be used in very limited numbers for my SF elite. The tech that it is based off of is either in working prototype stages (field testing) or is in current use.

Please feel free to edit/modify the current drawing if you think of anything to add/change. However, I do ask that people DO NOT rip off my drawing for their own personal use.



Breakdown in the quick and dirty:

Head/Neck: Fully enclosed helmet offers built in ballistic eye protection and air filtration (NBC) through recessed side filtration cartridges. The helmet is constructed out of a plastic composite material that weighs a couple of ounces less then a similarly sized Kevlar helmet.

The helm will defeat zero-degree rifle bullets at point blank range and will stop 7.62mm rounds from medium to long range.

Built in HUD linked to externally side mounted optics that will allow user access to a projected topographical map, Night and Thermal vision.

Communications are achieved through bone conduction pads worn by the user and can be used without the helmet attached.

Neck protected by standard two piece collar&yoke protection.


Sources:
Army Times 28 Feb 2011 - New Bullet Proof Helmet
Microvision’s Nomad Display Systems (Map)
JSF Helmet Technology (Night/Thermal vision)
Audio Bone Headphones (2 way Communications)


Body/Chest:
Specially designed/constructed one piece under suit (jumpsuit style) is both flame retardant and doubles as a limited NBC suit.

Body Armor is level 4 multi hit stand alone rated and due to it's design is flexible.

Standard Molle attachments.

Sources:
Dragon Skin (BA)

Arms/Hands:
Deltoid Protectors

Ballistic arm protection.

Hybrid no drip/NBC gloves.

Sources:
Hellweg International - Body Armour

Waist Down:
Drop down thigh rigs with built in ballistic protection and molle attachments

Built in harness which can be used for rapid insertion/exfil.

Load bearing belt to reduce fatigue from vest/gear with built in ballistic protection.

Femoral artery ballistic protection.

Built in knee pads on piece jumpsuit.

Specially designed and custom fit armored boots made from a Kevlar composite to offer protection from both ballistic, blast, and NBC threats.

Hydraulic load transfer system attacked to feet, legs, waist, and back to allow user to carry 200 lbs unhindered over various terrains.

Sources:
Lockheed Martin's HULC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqQloLvpWFA

[Risottia]

Not sure if this is the correct sub forum for this, but I didn't think It belonged in any of the IC threads.
Anyway, I am working on a new armor design for my nation

If it's for your nation it's not for General. F&NI would be my guess.

[Laerod]

It's usually a terrible idea to supply uniforms that can get caught on something, such as the loops around the lower legs you have there.

[Morrdh]

Would be an idea posting this up on the NSDraftroom for some constructive feedback from guys who really know their stuff.

Though its clear that you've done some research and put a bit of work into this, even going far as listing sources which is something not many people do favouring the 'Rule of Cool' over something that works.

[Nation of Fortune]

that helm sounds tragically op, unless by rifle you meant pistol when you said it could survive a point blank discharge

[Munathanura]

that helm sounds tragically op, unless by rifle you meant pistol when you said it could survive a point blank discharge

The ECH, which is what I assume Paddy's referring to, is pretty damn good. I'm unsure as to whether it stops 5.56x45mm NATO rounds and can also protect against 7.62x39mm rat a distance, or if it's proof against intermediate rounds and can stop the 7.62 NATO at a distance.

[Nation of Fortune]

that helm sounds tragically op, unless by rifle you meant pistol when you said it could survive a point blank discharge

The ECH, which is what I assume Paddy's referring to, is pretty damn good. I'm unsure as to whether it stops 5.56x45mm NATO rounds and can also protect against 7.62x39mm rat a distance, or if it's proof against intermediate rounds and can stop the 7.62 NATO at a distance.

I know, I have seen first hand the standard us military issue ones can do. But to stop a rifle round point blank is not gonna happen. Maybe a 9mm if it's godly. but not a rifle round

[Munathanura]

The ECH, which is what I assume Paddy's referring to, is pretty damn good. I'm unsure as to whether it stops 5.56x45mm NATO rounds and can also protect against 7.62x39mm at a distance, or if it's proof against intermediate rounds and can stop the 7.62 NATO at a distance.

I know, I have seen first hand the standard us military issue ones can do. But to stop a rifle round point blank is not gonna happen. Maybe a 9mm if it's godly. but not a rifle round

If you'll read the links I've provided, you'll see that the army has tested them and rates them as being able to stop a rifle round. Presumably this means intermediate calibres, so not quite Level III, but still a step up from the MICH/ACH, which are both rated at NIJ Level IIIA.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Thank you for the feedback so far, and will be requesting a tow here shortly.

For starters....

It's usually a terrible idea to supply uniforms that can get caught on something, such as the loops around the lower legs you have there.

Yes, I am working on a better design and have already gone through about 4 designs so far. Just wanted to get a placeholder down so I could start getting feedback.

that helm sounds tragically op, unless by rifle you meant pistol when you said it could survive a point blank discharge

The ECH, which is what I assume Paddy's referring to, is pretty damn good. I'm unsure as to whether it stops 5.56x45mm NATO rounds and can also protect against 7.62x39mm rat a distance, or if it's proof against intermediate rounds and can stop the 7.62 NATO at a distance.

Actually, I am talking about the ECH, and I am using a physical copy of that Army Times as a source. A few tidbits pulled from the article:

Pg 16=17 of the issue listed:

"The Helmet is made of a state of the art plastic, but don't let that fool you. It has stopped zero-degree rifle bullets at point-blank range, and has stopped 7.62mm rounds as well.

"We had hoped for a 35% improvement over the ACH in terms of ballistic protection and it's way better then that," said Col. William Cole, project manager of SPIE.

How much better is hard to say. There are plenty of equations and scientific data that calculate the helmet's full capability, but test guns used by private labs weren't able to shoot fragments fast enough to penetrate the helmet. In fact, officials were unable to determine a V50 rating, which identifies the speed required for 50% of fragments to penetrate the material....

The ECH is a little thicker but 1 to 4 ounces lighter depending on its size...."

Now Vs. New
A Comparison of the current combat helmet and the new one:

ACH
Materials: Aramid fabric
Stops: 9mm round at close range, rifle bullets at longer ranges
Weight:
S=2.93 lbs
M=3.06 lbs
L=3.31 lbs
XL=3.60 lbs
XXL= 3.77 lbs
Color= foliage green 504
Cost: $325

ECH
Material: Plastic
Stops: 7.62mm rounds at medium to long range
Weight:
S=1 ounce less then Ach
M=2 ounce less
L= 3 ounce less
XL= 4 ounce less
XXL= 4 ounce less
Color= brown
Cost=$650-750

The only thing I was unsure of, is energy transfer protection due to the current ACH pads would be insufficient at that velocity of round. So I decided to use a technology from a company that made a energy transfer absorption insert for my ballistic vest (Zoombang) and borrowed their tech for use in the pads.

You would still have a concussion from a direct hit, but you shouldn't have any long lasting neck injuries.

Also 7.62mm listed the way it is in the article usually refers to 7.62nato and not 7.62x39. Misprint? Maybe, however I am not about to go "field testing" mine when it gets to me in the next couple of years to find out.

[Nation of Fortune]

I know, I have seen first hand the standard us military issue ones can do. But to stop a rifle round point blank is not gonna happen. Maybe a 9mm if it's godly. but not a rifle round

If you'll read the links I've provided, you'll see that the army has tested them and rates them as being able to stop a rifle round. Presumably this means intermediate calibres, so not quite Level III, but still a step up from the MICH/ACH, which are both rated at NIJ Level IIIA.

I've seen first hand what happens when the standard us military helmet gets shot. My staff sergeant was shot in the helmet by a rifle round in a fire fight. His helmet saved his life. What the helmet does is it causes the bullet to deflect into the material of the helmet, and the helmet gets torn in two as the bullet travels around. It doesn't stop bullets it just deflects them. A zero degree bullet at point blank would not be able to be deflected as well as a bullet fired from a distance. You can read all the testing documents you want, but trust me, those are going to be assuming best case scenarios. Also the government wants to look like it's providing the best gear, so the testing process suffers. It's especially annoying cause everything is made by the lowest bidder, not the best possible person to make it.

If you feel like looking up my ssgt, his name is ssgt james simmons. If there is a newspaper article it would be dated august or september of 2009.

[Paddy O Fernature]

If you'll read the links I've provided, you'll see that the army has tested them and rates them as being able to stop a rifle round. Presumably this means intermediate calibres, so not quite Level III, but still a step up from the MICH/ACH, which are both rated at NIJ Level IIIA.

I've seen first hand what happens when the standard us military helmet gets shot. My staff sergeant was shot in the helmet by a rifle round in a fire fight. His helmet saved his life. What the helmet does is it causes the bullet to deflect into the material of the helmet, and the helmet gets torn in two as the bullet travels around. It doesn't stop bullets it just deflects them. A zero degree bullet at point blank would not be able to be deflected as well as a bullet fired from a distance. You can read all the testing documents you want, but trust me, those are going to be assuming best case scenarios. Also the government wants to look like it's providing the best gear, so the testing process suffers. It's especially annoying cause everything is made by the lowest bidder, not the best possible person to make it.

If you feel like looking up my ssgt, his name is ssgt james simmons. If there is a newspaper article it would be dated august or september of 2009.

Sorry, but the black and white is right there in front of you to read and digest. Besides, how can you assume a physical test result? That doesn't even make sense really once you think about it.

I understand that you have a personal experience in the matter, but you can't really argue with test results and completely ignore/throw them out just because you don't like them.

Also, modern helmets have been able to defeat rifle rounds fired from a distance.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Small Update:



Flushed out the chest piece and the leg additions bringing them more in line as suggested. I also have a few head upgrades that I need some help on. Tell me which ones you like best along with any ideas on how to improve the design.

[Galla-]

Poor guys will be baking in that thing and their peripheral vision will be zilch.

[Nation of Fortune]

I've seen first hand what happens when the standard us military helmet gets shot. My staff sergeant was shot in the helmet by a rifle round in a fire fight. His helmet saved his life. What the helmet does is it causes the bullet to deflect into the material of the helmet, and the helmet gets torn in two as the bullet travels around. It doesn't stop bullets it just deflects them. A zero degree bullet at point blank would not be able to be deflected as well as a bullet fired from a distance. You can read all the testing documents you want, but trust me, those are going to be assuming best case scenarios. Also the government wants to look like it's providing the best gear, so the testing process suffers. It's especially annoying cause everything is made by the lowest bidder, not the best possible person to make it.

If you feel like looking up my ssgt, his name is ssgt james simmons. If there is a newspaper article it would be dated august or september of 2009.

Sorry, but the black and white is right there in front of you to read and digest. Besides, how can you assume a physical test result? That doesn't even make sense really once you think about it.

I understand that you have a personal experience in the matter, but you can't really argue with test results and completely ignore/throw them out just because you don't like them.

Also, modern helmets have been able to defeat rifle rounds fired from a distance.

-snip-

I'm not objecting to the distance part, I'm objecting to the point blank part

[Galla-]

Sorry, but the black and white is right there in front of you to read and digest. Besides, how can you assume a physical test result? That doesn't even make sense really once you think about it.

I understand that you have a personal experience in the matter, but you can't really argue with test results and completely ignore/throw them out just because you don't like them.

Also, modern helmets have been able to defeat rifle rounds fired from a distance.

-snip-

I'm not objecting to the distance part, I'm objecting to the point blank part

In combat, you won't get shot at from point blank unless someone really fucked up.

[Nation of Fortune]

I'm not objecting to the distance part, I'm objecting to the point blank part

In combat, you won't get shot at from point blank unless someone really fucked up.

I am fully aware of this, I was just saying that the wording states it can withstand such a shot. I mean I still have the one I was issued, a computer error in my favor. Were I so inclined, I could test this theory of stopping Rifle rounds from point blank. I however do not need, nor do I want, to do this because I know for a 100% fact it would not stop a rifle round from point blank. A pistol round, maybe, but not a rifle round. You can spout all sorts of statistics you found online, but trust me the government embellishes on these sorts of statics to look good. Why do you think the us marine corps has gone through three seperate flak jackets in the past five years. They realized their number embellishing was screwing them over when statitics of actual casualties started getting out. So they went with something that was more heavily armored, and marines started dying because of mobility and over heating issues. they then switched to a simple plate carrier which got the job done just as effectively without the heat cases and mobility issues.

And being in a point blank situation is not unheard of in a MOUT situation, actually it is incredibly more likely in such a situation.

[Paddy O Fernature]

In combat, you won't get shot at from point blank unless someone really fucked up.

I am fully aware of this, I was just saying that the wording states it can withstand such a shot. I mean I still have the one I was issued, a computer error in my favor. Were I so inclined, I could test this theory of stopping Rifle rounds from point blank. I however do not need, nor do I want, to do this because I know for a 100% fact it would not stop a rifle round from point blank. A pistol round, maybe, but not a rifle round. You can spout all sorts of statistics you found online, but trust me the government embellishes on these sorts of statics to look good. Why do you think the us marine corps has gone through three seperate flak jackets in the past five years. They realized their number embellishing was screwing them over when statitics of actual casualties started getting out. So they went with something that was more heavily armored, and marines started dying because of mobility and over heating issues. they then switched to a simple plate carrier which got the job done just as effectively without the heat cases and mobility issues.

And being in a point blank situation is not unheard of in a MOUT situation, actually it is incredibly more likely in such a situation.

Again, you are comparing something old to something new. And my hard facts come directly from a copy of Army Times that is sitting not two feet from me. Not Wikipedia, not an online forum, a direct and credible source.

Until you start posting hard facts backed up by sources as credible or more so then mine about the actual product that I am using for a reference (and not something that was released in '03) I kindly ask that you drop the "because I said so" argument and move on.

As for what people think of Jar heads, and their methods/ethics, that's another topic for another day and will not be discussed here.

Besides, not every country RP's as a middle east clone here in Nation States.

[Galla-]

The primary issue with your uniform is that it looks far too heavy, far too cumbersome, and it has a motorcycle helmet. Motorcycle helmets are shit for peripheral vision. Recessed filters are a real whore to change, and partly the reason why the M17 was never revisited, and although the M50 looks similar it doesn't have filters on the inside. A HUD is really overblown, and you're better off issuing this to light or mechanised troops rather than "SF elite", because SF soldiers don't really have a use for networked systems.

Dragon Skin is total shit, I suggest you drop it, unless you like seeing bullets pass between DYNEEMA plates and hitting your troops from oblique angles, or falling apart in 110 F heat, and yes it does get that hot in an automobile.

All of the ridiculous separate ballistic protection for the legs and arms can be dropped, or you can use DYNEEMA/Twaron pants like the Russians do (i forgot the name of the things, but they're actually pretty light and protect against shrapnel). Arm and upper limb protection can definitely be dropped. You don't want anymore resistance against your arm when you're trying to properly shoulder a rifle.

Speaking of which, motorcycle helmets are shit for trying to shoot, too. The plastic facemask gets in the way. I can say that I have tried this IRL and it was awkward at best.

[Nation of Fortune]

I am fully aware of this, I was just saying that the wording states it can withstand such a shot. I mean I still have the one I was issued, a computer error in my favor. Were I so inclined, I could test this theory of stopping Rifle rounds from point blank. I however do not need, nor do I want, to do this because I know for a 100% fact it would not stop a rifle round from point blank. A pistol round, maybe, but not a rifle round. You can spout all sorts of statistics you found online, but trust me the government embellishes on these sorts of statics to look good. Why do you think the us marine corps has gone through three seperate flak jackets in the past five years. They realized their number embellishing was screwing them over when statitics of actual casualties started getting out. So they went with something that was more heavily armored, and marines started dying because of mobility and over heating issues. they then switched to a simple plate carrier which got the job done just as effectively without the heat cases and mobility issues.

And being in a point blank situation is not unheard of in a MOUT situation, actually it is incredibly more likely in such a situation.

Again, you are comparing something old to something new. And my hard facts come directly from a copy of Army Times that is sitting not two feet from me. Not Wikipedia, not an online forum, a direct and credible source.

Until you start posting hard facts backed up by sources as credible or more so then mine about the actual product that I am using for a reference (and not something that was released in '03) I kindly ask that you drop the "because I said so" argument and move on.

As for what people think of Jar heads, and their methods/ethics, that's another topic for another day and will not be discussed here.

Besides, not every country RP's as a middle east clone here in Nation States.

If you really want me to drop it I will, but I would like to point out that it's a contradictory statement.

The helm will defeat zero-degree rifle bullets at point blank range and will stop 7.62mm rounds from medium to long range.

A 7.62mm round IS a rifle round. So your statement reads that it can stop rifle rounds point blank, then immediately follows that it can only defeat rifle rounds from a medium to long range.

You also asked for input on thoughts for your design. I was an infantry marine in Iraq and Afghanistan, I've been in my fair share firefights. As a result, I can speak for the standard infantryman when I say how the majority of us would prefer minimal armor in favor of mobility and visibility. Any enclosed structure like your helmet is going to fog up and reduce visibility to zero at critical times, since it looks like the only way to have a quick fix on this is to remove said helmet, it defeats the purpose of even having a helmet in the first place. And it's not just going to fog up in hot weather, it will do the same in cold weather. If you look at pictures of infantry guys on patrol, at least some of them aren't going to be wearing any eye protection because they took it off so they could see.

-Edit- It should also be noted that the army times, marine times, navy times, etc are not official publications nor are they endorsed by any branch of the military. It's a common misconception that are. If I really cared enough about this I could find official publications. I was just trying to give insight from a first hand point of view.

[Paddy O Fernature]

The primary issue with your uniform is that it looks far too heavy, far too cumbersome, and it has a motorcycle helmet. Motorcycle helmets are shit for peripheral vision. Recessed filters are a real whore to change, and partly the reason why the M17 was never revisited, and although the M50 looks similar it doesn't have filters on the inside. A HUD is really overblown, and you're better off issuing this to light or mechanised troops rather than "SF elite", because SF soldiers don't really have a use for networked systems.

Dragon Skin is total shit, I suggest you drop it, unless you like seeing bullets pass between DYNEEMA plates and hitting your troops from oblique angles, or falling apart in 110 F heat, and yes it does get that hot in an automobile.

All of the ridiculous separate ballistic protection for the legs and arms can be dropped, or you can use DYNEEMA/Twaron pants like the Russians do (i forgot the name of the things, but they're actually pretty light and protect against shrapnel). Arm and upper limb protection can definitely be dropped. You don't want anymore resistance against your arm when you're trying to properly shoulder a rifle.

Speaking of which, motorcycle helmets are shit for trying to shoot, too. The plastic facemask gets in the way. I can say that I have tried this IRL and it was awkward at best.

http://defense-update.com/events/2007/s ... oldier.htm

Full face helmets have been on the experiment table now for several years. They are generally constructed from the same materials as the helmet itself. I personally do not feel that it is far of a stretch to imagine the US or any nation (real or fake) to not continue to do so when a new material/design comes about.

Was not basing it off a MC helmet, and was actually looking at this. Though I can see where it does look like one. However, that is mainly due to my limited skills and program (MSP) used I think.

Yes, the NBC system is based off the similier concept as the M17, and yes I know full well that it is a pain to replace. However, I personally hate having the large 40mm canister or a flex hose for a waist mounted system hanging off the right side of my face, and feel that it all boils down to risk vs reward in this case.

Shooting with it I imagine would be just as hard as with shooting with a pro mask on. A Holographic Weapon Sight (HWS) works wonders in an instance like this as with a properly sighted PEC2. Not going to work in every situation, but it does help and give something to go off of.

If you can come up with a better solution, I am all ears and open to suggestions.

As for dragon skin, that can of worms is entirely open to debate going both ways. However last I heard was that the heat/angle issue was fixed a few years ago if I recall correctly.

Yes, it is heavy and bulky. However I am working on trimming it down and am relying on the HULC to help compensate the load for the user. I did look at the "ballistic pants" as they are nicknamed, and felt that even as it they would be heavier and bulkier then what I currently have proposed here.

http://www.bluedefense.com/images/magic ... 00both.jpg

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Drop-Leg-Platform.htm
http://www.hiwtc.com/photo/products/31/00/30/3012.jpg
http://www.bulletproofme.com/new%20down ... rm%203.JPG

I will however give your feedback some more thought and consideration.

The main design behind this, is when I am going into a hostile area where enemy contact isn't just likely, it is guaranteed to happen. If I was doing a deep recon, I would just stick with a single plate carrier and a a gillie suit. I think this may clear up some confusion in the thread.

[Galla-]

The primary issue with your uniform is that it looks far too heavy, far too cumbersome, and it has a motorcycle helmet. Motorcycle helmets are shit for peripheral vision. Recessed filters are a real whore to change, and partly the reason why the M17 was never revisited, and although the M50 looks similar it doesn't have filters on the inside. A HUD is really overblown, and you're better off issuing this to light or mechanised troops rather than "SF elite", because SF soldiers don't really have a use for networked systems.

Dragon Skin is total shit, I suggest you drop it, unless you like seeing bullets pass between DYNEEMA plates and hitting your troops from oblique angles, or falling apart in 110 F heat, and yes it does get that hot in an automobile.

All of the ridiculous separate ballistic protection for the legs and arms can be dropped, or you can use DYNEEMA/Twaron pants like the Russians do (i forgot the name of the things, but they're actually pretty light and protect against shrapnel). Arm and upper limb protection can definitely be dropped. You don't want anymore resistance against your arm when you're trying to properly shoulder a rifle.

Speaking of which, motorcycle helmets are shit for trying to shoot, too. The plastic facemask gets in the way. I can say that I have tried this IRL and it was awkward at best.

http://defense-update.com/events/2007/s ... oldier.htm

Full face helmets have been on the experiment table now for several years. They are generally constructed from the same materials as the helmet itself. I personally do not feel that it is far of a stretch to imagine the US or any nation (real or fake) to not continue to do so when a new material/design comes about.

Was not basing it off a MC helmet, and was actually looking at this. Though I can see where it does look like one. However, that is mainly due to my limited skills and program (MSP) used I think.

Yes, the NBC system is based off the similier concept as the M17, and yes I know full well that it is a pain to replace. However, I personally hate having the large 40mm canister or a flex hose for a waist mounted system hanging off the right side of my face, and feel that it all boils down to risk vs reward in this case.

Shooting with it I imagine would be just as hard as with shooting with a pro mask on. A Holographic Weapon Sight (HWS) works wonders in an instance like this as with a properly sighted PEC2. Not going to work in every situation, but it does help and give something to go off of.

If you can come up with a better solution, I am all ears and open to suggestions.

As for dragon skin, that can of worms is entirely open to debate going both ways. However last I heard was that the heat/angle issue was fixed a few years ago if I recall correctly.

Yes, it is heavy and bulky. However I am working on trimming it down and am relying on the HULC to help compensate the load for the user. I did look at the "ballistic pants" as they are nicknamed, and felt that even as it they would be heavier and bulkier then what I currently have proposed here.

http://www.bluedefense.com/images/magic ... 00both.jpg

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Drop-Leg-Platform.htm
http://www.hiwtc.com/photo/products/31/00/30/3012.jpg
http://www.bulletproofme.com/new%20down ... rm%203.JPG

I will however give your feedback some more thought and consideration.

The main design behind this, is when I am going into a hostile area where enemy contact isn't just likely, it is guaranteed to happen. If I was doing a deep recon, I would just stick with a single plate carrier and a a gillie suit. I think this may clear up some confusion in the thread.

1) It has nothing to do with the materials needed. It has to do with situational awareness and ability to shoulder your rifle. It is difficult to fire a rifle with a full face helmet on, and you lose your peripheral vision. The helmet blocks the area around you, unless you make a totally glass (or polycarbonate) helmet.

2) Those helmet addons are for security/police work and LIC like in Afghanistan. They're heavy, but they stop low calibre rounds and shrapnel from snipers taking your cheeks or eyes off. Making addons for it is fine, but making the helmet a do or die full face motorcycle-style is ridiculous. It's cumbersome, heavier than a regular Fritz-style, and reduces situational awareness.

3) If you don't want that, use a conformal filter like the M50 gas mask. It doesn't have the large canisters on the side like the M40, nor does it expose you to contamination if you need to change filters. It's like the best of both worlds.

4) Yeah that's great, but what happens when it breaks and you need to use iron sights? And why wouldn't you train your soldiers to use iron sights in the first place? Even badass SOF guys use irons, because irons are badass and idiot-proof. They don't need batteries and they can't really be broken by dropping, unless "dropping" means "beat with a hammer deliberately, multiple times".

A better system would be just like you posted a link to. A system of removable modules that form a fully enclosed helmet, or an open Fritz-style, through some kind of attachment points. Modularity is always better, if more expensive.

5) Dragon Skin failed the first time. They also said it wasn't a problem the first time. Until you find concrete proof (I mean an NIJ or NATO test) that it has been fixed, I wouldn't believe a word those people at Pinnacle say.

6) HULC is bordering MT. There really isn't a good enough power source, and issuing it to "elite SF" guys is a bad idea. SF operate without supplies for months at a time, which is why they generally pack light, wear native clothing, and establish contacts within local population to organise clandestine operations.

This is something you'd issue to regular grunts, who'd make more use for it, and you could still issue it to your SF if they were doing a srs highprofile hispeedlowdrag assault.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Again, you are comparing something old to something new. And my hard facts come directly from a copy of Army Times that is sitting not two feet from me. Not Wikipedia, not an online forum, a direct and credible source.

Until you start posting hard facts backed up by sources as credible or more so then mine about the actual product that I am using for a reference (and not something that was released in '03) I kindly ask that you drop the "because I said so" argument and move on.

As for what people think of Jar heads, and their methods/ethics, that's another topic for another day and will not be discussed here.

Besides, not every country RP's as a middle east clone here in Nation States.

If you really want me to drop it I will, but I would like to point out that it's a contradictory statement.

The helm will defeat zero-degree rifle bullets at point blank range and will stop 7.62mm rounds from medium to long range.

A 7.62mm round IS a rifle round. So your statement reads that it can stop rifle rounds point blank, then immediately follows that it can only defeat rifle rounds from a medium to long range.

You also asked for input on thoughts for your design. I was an infantry marine in Iraq and Afghanistan, I've been in my fair share firefights. As a result, I can speak for the standard infantryman when I say how the majority of us would prefer minimal armor in favor of mobility and visibility. Any enclosed structure like your helmet is going to fog up and reduce visibility to zero at critical times, since it looks like the only way to have a quick fix on this is to remove said helmet, it defeats the purpose of even having a helmet in the first place. And it's not just going to fog up in hot weather, it will do the same in cold weather. If you look at pictures of infantry guys on patrol, at least some of them aren't going to be wearing any eye protection because they took it off so they could see.

-Edit- It should also be noted that the army times, marine times, navy times, etc are not official publications nor are they endorsed by any branch of the military. It's a common misconception that are. If I really cared enough about this I could find official publications. I was just trying to give insight from a first hand point of view.

As a foot slogger, you should very well know that there are rifle rounds, and then there are RIFLE rounds.

5.56 is a glorified 22 bullet on steroids originally designed to wound someone. .308 is a battle rifle round that has found a place on the modern battlefield as a marksman's round of choice and is pretty much in a league of it's own when the most common rounds used today are 5.56 and 7.62x39.

And as for feedback, I did ask for it. What I got was an opinion without any facts backing it up other then the "because I said so argument." If you are willing to throw down some facts backed up by credible sources, I am more then willing to listen. That's all I have asked.

As for your comments:
An Anti Fogging lens can be used to help limit the fog along with proper ventilation and if need be a small in unit fan. Will it work all the time? No, but the odds of it working properly are pretty good.

http://www.ansgear.com/PhotoDetails.asp ... PROTOFSFAN

I also find it slightly odd, that you claim to want less protection and greater mobility, yet in reality the US forked over loads of cash to provide "enhanced" interceptor vests to troops because they complained that they were not protected well enough with the first generation of IBA.

Just saying.

http://defense-update.com/images/limbs.jpg

[Paddy O Fernature]

@ Galla:

3: Under consideration.

4: You can still use irons, it is tough but it can be done. I personally find that tiling an M4 slightly while wearing a pro mask enables me to shoot it much more effectively. Though it is awkward and does take getting used too.

Modular design being taken into consideration.

5: The one that does exist was written and reviewed by a employee for Interceptor. So sadly the room for biased opinion exists. All I can look at is the dozen or so videos on you tube as video proof.

Still though, a stronger glue and better overlapping while bent isn't a hard fix realistically.

6: Please see the video I linked under source fully. It works fully without a power source.

Point taken for the rest for rest of the statement here. And as stated, I think part of the confusion is that this will not be every day wear nor will it fit every mission.

Think I might change it up to be a modular piece instead of a all in one design and allow it to be modulated to fit the specific mission instead overall.

Yes?

[Nation of Fortune]

[spoiler]

If you really want me to drop it I will, but I would like to point out that it's a contradictory statement.



A 7.62mm round IS a rifle round. So your statement reads that it can stop rifle rounds point blank, then immediately follows that it can only defeat rifle rounds from a medium to long range.

You also asked for input on thoughts for your design. I was an infantry marine in Iraq and Afghanistan, I've been in my fair share firefights. As a result, I can speak for the standard infantryman when I say how the majority of us would prefer minimal armor in favor of mobility and visibility. Any enclosed structure like your helmet is going to fog up and reduce visibility to zero at critical times, since it looks like the only way to have a quick fix on this is to remove said helmet, it defeats the purpose of even having a helmet in the first place. And it's not just going to fog up in hot weather, it will do the same in cold weather. If you look at pictures of infantry guys on patrol, at least some of them aren't going to be wearing any eye protection because they took it off so they could see.

-Edit- It should also be noted that the army times, marine times, navy times, etc are not official publications nor are they endorsed by any branch of the military. It's a common misconception that are. If I really cared enough about this I could find official publications. I was just trying to give insight from a first hand point of view.

As a foot slogger, you should very well know that there are rifle rounds, and then there are RIFLE rounds.

5.56 is a glorified 22 bullet on steroids originally designed to wound someone. .308 is a battle rifle round that has found a place on the modern battlefield as a marksman's round of choice and is pretty much in a league of it's own when the most common rounds used today are 5.56 and 7.62x39.

And as for feedback, I did ask for it. What I got was an opinion without any facts backing it up other then the "because I said so argument." If you are willing to throw down some facts backed up by credible sources, I am more then willing to listen. That's all I have asked.

As for your comments:
An Anti Fogging lens can be used to help limit the fog along with proper ventilation and if need be a small in unit fan. Will it work all the time? No, but the odds of it working properly are pretty good.

http://www.ansgear.com/PhotoDetails.asp ... PROTOFSFAN

I also find it slightly odd, that you claim to want less protection and greater mobility, yet in reality the US forked over loads of cash to provide "enhanced" interceptor vests to troops because they complained that they were not protected well enough with the first generation of IBA.

Just saying.

http://defense-update.com/images/limbs.jpg

[/spoiler]We did not actually ask for more protection. Some general found a perceived weakness in the armor, that shrapnel wouldn't be stopped. The same E-SAPI plates, front and side, were used in all three incarnations of the usmc body armor. No extra protection from bullets, just shrapnel. So then the change from interceptor to MTV happened. I liked being able to touch my opposite hip with the interceptor. Luckily in the third incarnation, the plate carrier they got rid of all the flak, and made it so it could just support the E-SAPI plates. Sorry if this is brief, but I'm going out drinking. I've had a horribly shitty day

[Galla-]

@ Galla:

3: Under consideration.

4: You can still use irons, it is tough but it can be done. I personally find that tiling an M4 slightly while wearing a pro mask enables me to shoot it much more effectively. Though it is awkward and does take getting used too.

Modular design being taken into consideration.

5: The one that does exist was written and reviewed by a employee for Interceptor. So sadly the room for biased opinion exists. All I can look at is the dozen or so videos on you tube as video proof.

Still though, a stronger glue and better overlapping while bent isn't a hard fix realistically.

6: Please see the video I linked under source fully. It works fully without a power source.

Point taken for the rest for rest of the statement here. And as stated, I think part of the confusion is that this will not be every day wear nor will it fit every mission.

Think I might change it up to be a modular piece instead of a all in one design and allow it to be modulated to fit the specific mission instead overall.

Yes?

4. It is also bad for trying to kill someone who is shooting at you. I would seriously suggest you just issue an ECH with modular addons, and a conformal gas mask-type like the M50. It's more conventional, and it's proven to work.

6. Then it's a glorified backpack frame. USMC ILBE frame works just as good as an unpowered HULC.