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by Manokan Republic » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:11 pm
by Triplebaconation » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:38 pm
Manokan Republic wrote:[quote="Triplebaconation";p="35969749"
If you don't like wikipedia, you can check the source's sources, where are pretty easy to find....
Anyways, if you're interested in more information on the Toyota wars, Arabs at war, particularly starting at page 386, or Technicals are decent sources, but most of it is not available online.
by Manokan Republic » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:07 am
Austrasien wrote:Manokan Republic wrote:Actually for what I'm envisioning it might be fine, as long as it was remote controlled and could be angled at, really high angles. The whole point is not a complete replacement for all artillery or mortars, only a quick reacting mortar that could be easily mounted for relatively low weight to an armored vehicle that normally has some other purpose. You could do something like, type in GPS coordinates and have the round fire in the direction you chose, or you could relay the command to someone in the vehicle to do it for you. The idea is not to replicate every single function of a mortar, hence the idea of making it smaller, but to have something that can fire quickly with a high explosive shell, or shell filled with something else like smoke, on demand. The idea is just to fire a mortar like round at the enemy. Firing it at a different angle to compensate for the higher static velocity would probably be fine. Worst case scenario, there are other ways to effect velocity, such as electrically activated propellants (such as found in the metal storm guns), that allow only certain propellants to be set off at a given time, or a way to adjust barrel length (such as an extendable tubular sleeve), but honestly I think it's just silly. Angling it slightly different would be fine. In many cases direct fire would be better, such as for close range support, and you could use air-bursting rounds to achieve the effect of a high angle.
Perhaps the easiest way to adjust mortar velocity is to adjust the power of the round itself, like with liquid propellants, hydrogen-gas guns, or something like a railgun. There is a DARPA designed coil-gun assisted 120mm mortar that can augment the power of existing mortar rounds, using electricity to vary the level of power instead of altering the propellant, by up to 30%. This has already been proposed to allow for alternating the level of power with the gun without having to change propellants, and has performed well in experiments. This could be powered by a hybrid electric engine of a vehicle, so you wouldn't even need a separate generator or pack of batteries, or they wouldn't be very large, and would be good to replace actual vehicle mortars especially if it was autoloaded. But honestly, I just don't think you need to replicate every single little feature of a mortar in to something meant to be slapped on to armored vehicles at a whim. The goal is big splodey thing to shoot the enemy with really fast. It just doesn't need to be this complicated. Adding an air-bursting feature to a giant oversized grenade launching chaingun and calling it a day seems fine to me.
Well I am glad you have taken the recommendation of myself, Triplebaconation and others to heart and realized an automatic grenade launcher is a much better idea than a mortar stapled to an RWS you would save yourself a lot of time if you just admitted this and didn't pretend there was deep ontological confusion about "what is a mortar, really?". You didn't mean automatic grenade launcher when you were saying mortar all along, you meant mortar, were informed quite a while ago at length that was a rather bad idea and AGLs are much better for that, and now are trying to pretend you really meant automatic grenade launcher all along.
The posts where we told you to use an automatic grenade launcher, not a mortar, are still available for all to see. So what is the point of this absurd deception? Mortar and automatic grenade launcher are clearly distinct in usage. You can find as many obscure exceptions as you want. I'll help you. But it doesn't change anything, no one else fails to distinguish this and this or finds it particularly challenging to do so - and neither do you.
by Triplebaconation » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:37 am
by The Chuck » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:48 am
Triplebaconation wrote:Let me slice the Gordian knot for you. It's a gun-mortar. Is a gun-mortar a gun, a mortar, a gun that has some of the characteristics of a mortar, or a mortar that has some of the characteristics of a gun? It doesn't matter, because it describes what you're talking about perfectly!
Anyway, I had a very unpleasant experience tonight and got stapled up at the ER. I'll likely be in gradually decreasing pain for the next two weeks. To avoid spending any of that time debating what sources I've read and you've only seen through a glass darkly actually say about some obscure detail about an obscure war, I'm placing you on ignore. Very likely permanently.
For what it's worth, I actually think you're probably of above average intelligence. However, I suspect you're a narcissist of such incredible magnitude that it completely prevents critical thinking. Your ego has such impenetrable defenses that whatever half-formed suspect idea first pops into your head is completely immutable, no matter how absurd. As you encounter new information it has to be twisted into conformity or discarded so you don't have to admit being slightly incorrect, even to yourself.
This also explains your blatant dishonesty, your constant projection about semantic arguments, your disproportionate hostility to criticism, and your preoccupation with armor.
Ideally these threads should be about exchanging information that may not be useful but is at least interesting to the participants. Instead they've turned into nothing but everyone engaging you in these arguments that are really just excuses to see how convoluted your thousand-word responses can get. Most of the actual discussion moved to Discord not long after you showed up.
We're also indulging you, though. It seems unlikely you're a troll due to the massive amounts of effort you've put into all this, but I have absolutely no doubt you thrive on the same responses an actual troll would, perhaps without even realizing it.
Goodbye and good luck!
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by Manokan Republic » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:54 am
Triplebaconation wrote:Manokan Republic wrote:[quote="Triplebaconation";p="35969749"
If you don't like wikipedia, you can check the source's sources, where are pretty easy to find....
Anyways, if you're interested in more information on the Toyota wars, Arabs at war, particularly starting at page 386, or Technicals are decent sources, but most of it is not available online.
Thank you for the recommendation. I actually already own both books!
It's somewhat surprising you recommend the Osprey book.
I've also seen contemporary French newscasts of FANT practicing with Milan.
Just as an aside, here's the battlefield at Fada.
by Manokan Republic » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:02 am
Triplebaconation wrote:Let me slice the Gordian knot for you. It's a gun-mortar. Is a gun-mortar a gun, a mortar, a gun that has some of the characteristics of a mortar, or a mortar that has some of the characteristics of a gun? It doesn't matter, because it describes what you're talking about perfectly!
Anyway, I had a very unpleasant experience tonight and got stapled up at the ER. I'll likely be in gradually decreasing pain for the next two weeks. To avoid spending any of that time debating what sources I've read and you've only seen through a glass darkly actually say about some obscure detail about an obscure war, I'm placing you on ignore. Very likely permanently.
For what it's worth, I actually think you're probably of above average intelligence. However, I suspect you're a narcissist of such incredible magnitude that it completely prevents critical thinking. Your ego has such impenetrable defenses that whatever half-formed suspect idea first pops into your head is completely immutable, no matter how absurd. As you encounter new information it has to be twisted into conformity or discarded so you don't have to admit being slightly incorrect, even to yourself.
This also explains your blatant dishonesty, your constant projection about semantic arguments, your disproportionate hostility to criticism, and your preoccupation with armor.
Ideally these threads should be about exchanging information that may not be useful but is at least interesting to the participants. Instead they've turned into nothing but everyone engaging you in these arguments that are really just excuses to see how convoluted your thousand-word responses can get. Most of the actual discussion moved to Discord not long after you showed up.
We're also indulging you, though. It seems unlikely you're a troll due to the massive amounts of effort you've put into all this, but I have absolutely no doubt you thrive on the same responses an actual troll would, perhaps without even realizing it.
Goodbye and good luck!
by Austrasien » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:53 am
Manokan Republic wrote:The problem with grenade launchers is that they are too small. I want something which automatically loads and fire mortar rounds. That is the objective. To call this a grenade launcher is just kind of silly.
Manokan Republic wrote:For you to say it has to fit your specific definition or be a grenade launcher is kind of silly. I honestly don't really care what you call it as long as it achieves the same effect. The main difference from a grenade launcher is that for mortars to get out to long range, they usually need to be fin stabilized. Also the rate of fire can afford to be really slow.
by Sevvania » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:18 am
Manokan Republic wrote:If you don't like wikipedia, you can check the source's sources, where are pretty easy to find.
Manokan Republic wrote:Battle of Fada: "This powerful force attacked Fada, the capital of the Ennedi and a Libyan stronghold, on 2 January 1987. Hassan Djamous took the 1,000 Libyan soldiers and the 300–400 members of the Democratic Revolutionary Council (CDR) militia by surprise. In a short but brutal engagement the FANT almost annihilated the Libyan armoured brigade that defended Fada: 784 Libyans and CDR militiamen died, 92 T-55 tanks and 33 BMP-1 infantry fighting vehicles were destroyed, and 13 T-55s and 18 BMP-1s captured, together with 81 Libyan soldiers. Chadian losses were minimal: only 18 soldiers died and three Toyotas were destroyed. This was one of the first major combat victories employing the tactic of using light trucks armed with machine guns or rockets, later known as "technicals." This tactic mirrored the actions of the raids conducted by the Long Range Desert Group of World War II, but on a slightly smaller scale theater, against slightly less numerous enemies, but with more modern weaponry and equipment. Although the Chadian commander's tactical ability played an important role in the victory, the anti-tank missiles were decisive. When combined with the superior maneuverability of the Toyotas, they proved their efficacy against the Libyan tanks."
by Dothrakia » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:50 pm
Austrasien wrote:Manokan Republic wrote:The problem with grenade launchers is that they are too small. I want something which automatically loads and fire mortar rounds. That is the objective. To call this a grenade launcher is just kind of silly.
An old 70 mm automatic grenade launcher has been shown to you multiple times. There is nothing about a grenade which implies a certain size. It does, however, imply spin stabilization and a fixed propellant case, which are immensely desirable for the kind of weapon you want. Namely, one which fires at low angles and is loaded from the breech.Manokan Republic wrote:For you to say it has to fit your specific definition or be a grenade launcher is kind of silly. I honestly don't really care what you call it as long as it achieves the same effect. The main difference from a grenade launcher is that for mortars to get out to long range, they usually need to be fin stabilized. Also the rate of fire can afford to be really slow.
No matter what you call it a breech loaded, low angle 81 or 60 mm mortar bomb launcher will be trashy. Fin stabilization is inferior to spin stabilization at low velocities. Combustible propellant charges are not readily compatible with the kind of simple automatic breech block you want, it will not be well-sealed and gas will escape through the breech as it did in the Vasilek. Both of these things are detrimental to accuracy, but the poor obturation is especially problematic because the resulting muzzle velocity variation will produce a very large vertical error component when firing directly (and even rifle mortar bombs do not solve this) which is a big part of why gun-mortars have never been a popular class of weapon in reality.
The only really accurate breech-loading "mortar" is the Nona and its relatives, they have an interrupted screw breech which is what is necessary to properly seal without a case. But it is not compatible with high ROF automatic loading.
If you compare the AGS-57 automatic grenade launcher with your hypothetical 60 mm automatic-gun-mortar-launcher the former is simply a better weapon than the latter because it does everything your concept purports to but might actually hit things it is shooting at.
by Austrasien » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:53 pm
by Triplebaconation » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:59 pm
Sevvania wrote:Manokan Republic wrote:If you don't like wikipedia, you can check the source's sources, where are pretty easy to find.Manokan Republic wrote:Battle of Fada: "This powerful force attacked Fada, the capital of the Ennedi and a Libyan stronghold, on 2 January 1987. Hassan Djamous took the 1,000 Libyan soldiers and the 300–400 members of the Democratic Revolutionary Council (CDR) militia by surprise. In a short but brutal engagement the FANT almost annihilated the Libyan armoured brigade that defended Fada: 784 Libyans and CDR militiamen died, 92 T-55 tanks and 33 BMP-1 infantry fighting vehicles were destroyed, and 13 T-55s and 18 BMP-1s captured, together with 81 Libyan soldiers. Chadian losses were minimal: only 18 soldiers died and three Toyotas were destroyed. This was one of the first major combat victories employing the tactic of using light trucks armed with machine guns or rockets, later known as "technicals." This tactic mirrored the actions of the raids conducted by the Long Range Desert Group of World War II, but on a slightly smaller scale theater, against slightly less numerous enemies, but with more modern weaponry and equipment. Although the Chadian commander's tactical ability played an important role in the victory, the anti-tank missiles were decisive. When combined with the superior maneuverability of the Toyotas, they proved their efficacy against the Libyan tanks."
Note that there are no in-text citations to corresponding sources at any point in this passage.
by Slavakino » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:51 pm
by Taihei Tengoku » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:38 pm
by Gallia- » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:42 pm
by Slavakino » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:48 pm
by Taihei Tengoku » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:40 pm
by Triplebaconation » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:33 am
by Triplebaconation » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:37 am
by Kassaran » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:59 am
Triplebaconation wrote:I just wanted to use the phrase entomological reconnaissance, which I'm almost certain involves butterfly nets.
The distribution is screwed up and more likely there'd be a few of these roaming around at the theater level.
Zarkenis Ultima wrote:Tristan noticed footsteps behind him and looked there, only to see Eric approaching and then pointing his sword at the girl. He just blinked a few times at this before speaking.
"Put that down, Mr. Eric." He said. "She's obviously not a chicken."
by Mostrov » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:56 am
by Gallia- » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:59 am
by Triplebaconation » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:51 am
Kassaran wrote:Triplebaconation wrote:I just wanted to use the phrase entomological reconnaissance, which I'm almost certain involves butterfly nets.
The distribution is screwed up and more likely there'd be a few of these roaming around at the theater level.
I'd see it being a Organic Threats Platoon attached to the Biological Hazards Company in my Medical Battalions, probably focused around highly contagious or infectious pathogens spread by fungus or mold or something given my highly urbanized environments. Insects don't do too well due to large scale pollution and metrosphere microclimates (localized rain at ten stories or below due to high amounts of organic movement in the upper layers.
Mostrov wrote:After reading a portion of Kenneth Pollack's Arabs at War I have some preliminary questions, even if broader than the scope of this thread:
- What contributes to the "hyper-competence" of the Israeli's in comparison to the Arabs? Repeatedly, they were able to overcome 'superior' forces through their adaptation, even in the span of a few hours. Is due to societal or racial factors or mere élan?
- There is much made of the rigidity of the Arab class system. Yet, Europe possessed such a system but was able to turn out fine military minds. Is this a facet of modern warfare, which requires a meritocracy to utilize the specialization mechanization brings, or otherwise? Would commanders from the middle-ages operate in a equivalent fashion were they to command modern forces?
- The Soviet-style centralization was a boon, as claimed, to middle-eastern mores—which proved readily amenable to rote instruction instead of officer initiative—but did the Soviets themselves exhibit enough flexibility that they would have operated without creating gaps between their lines that could be exploited by a cunning foe? Or was it the greater operational capability that would have enabled them to push through Fulda to the Atlantic which the Arabs lacked? If it is a matter of the ability of the non-staff officers, then would a auftragstaktik-esque system have given equivalent results for the Soviets?
by Taihei Tengoku » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:08 am
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