Kylaris Worldbuilding and Map Thread

[Alleniana]

oh boy Kylaris 3.0

I've kind of advocated for it in the past but never actually really put forth a proposal for what I think would be a good idea regardless of effort (from which the parts people can be bothered doing could be plucked out)
I'll do that now though

[Alleniana]

1. Geography
Attempt at tectonic, landform, climactic, biospheric, etc. accuracy; this would involve drawing up plates, terrain and biomes, with input from the community but ultimately producing a map that would not be susceptible to rainforest areas arbitrarily swapping with deserts, or that would have to use ocean currents for really anything but the most blatant of east coasts. To be done on a HD-ish map, which would also have a lower res version produced for maps that are more political than geographical, and then a further central register where RPer made maps would be posted for reference and validation with each other.

Problems can be solved with planning; map should be accurate to a decided projection, scaled, and should be drawn to a high standard, especially including enough islands. Inconvenience of changing natural map is solved if standard map usage is of the political one, which would not be affected by smaller changes in the natural one.

Actual shape would probably be similar to current map, but could be open to change if people want to pursue radically different concepts.

Population should reflect geography.

2. Culture
Refurbishing of existing analogues with actual culture that isn't just lifted out of RL. The RL complexity of culture is not an excuse not to at least pursue some degree of innovation in architecture, literature, music, cuisine and so forth. Would not be compulsory, since fair enough, cultural RP is not everyone's jam, and it's hard for us to actually try and conceive on a deeper level of culture that is fundamentally and basically different, but attempts should be made, even radically, such as matriarchy, modern polytheism, differing number systems and originalish art movements.

Language similar but more lenient; it's probably even harder to get into than culture properly, so RL languages should be allowed although preferably with realistic modifications (especially removing loanwords from languages that aren't adjacent to it ICly but were IRL), and conlangs encouraged most.

3. Economy
Potential pre-allocation of certain strategic resources, and at least records after the fact of measures of the global economy. Primary, secondary or tertiary sector focus, major exports and imports and trade balance, GDP and GDP PC, etc. should be clarified and documented. Population as an economic factor included, and if we want, environmental issues. Might be interesting to actually make climate change relevant.

Also with regards to actual situations; don't just make shitty !Africa, rich !Europe, giant industrial !Asia, etc. but at the same time do perhaps assign certain regions certain levels of development, with mind to global balance.

4. Ideology
Essentially Calt's proposal; come up with non-analogous ones and work with them

5. International politics
Major problem is inactivity on the part of major powers. People of assured activity and quality should be given the roles of the more major powers, i.e. geopolitical standing should play a role in application. If they go inactive, slack should be taken up relatively quickly, and system should be in place to find people to do that.

Multipolar world seems to be most popular; blocs should be drawn up to this end, and they should make sure to have a decent power base in an active core as so not to fade into irrelevance even if their hangers on go.

Norms should also be drawn up, e.g. whether the CN can legitimise intervention, how common (and thus aggressively perceived) proxy wars are, what the concept of sovereignty entails (e.g. IRL it changed recently due to ideas of humanitarian intervention and responsibility to protect)

6. History
History should as best as possible be drawn away from straight analogue and onto a unique, sensible path of development. There's nothing glaringly wrong about current progression but do we really need to have !Rome, and then !Byzantium and !HRE and !Vikings, then !Caliphate, then !Mongols, then !Wars of Religion, then !American colonialism, then !Industrial Revolution, then !Revolutionary Wars, !African colonialism, then !World Wars, then !Cold War, all while preserving the usual hierarchy of !Europe, !Asia, !Africa, !American natives, except for medieval !Asian dominance? And according to the same calendar too? It's really far too tight and we can do better. Perhaps have two Roman style collapses, analogous to if a Roman Empire size country had existed in the Late Bronze Age, or perhaps have no !Rome at all, perhaps have the Industrial Revolution begin away from Euclea and spread there, or perhaps have a non-analogous country design rule a large empire like the Ottomans, or perhaps a recent unification of !China (if we have one) or recent disestablishment of some kind of empire across Euclea. These are just ideas, but the point is to spitball radical change that is still plausible, workable and interesting.

This also ties into the geopolitical situation; Negara is a nice transcendence, while something like Asteria may be too close to analogue.

Book 7: Change (易)
All of this is a lot to do; similar to Calt's diagram, various lore docs we have around, etc. it would be a good idea to establish boards, or something, some kind of central registers of canon and resources, from which specific aspects of the world could be coordinated. Culture, language, ideology, geopolitics, economy, geography, pertinent to this, though other stuff could be too.

Furthermore, due to often unreliability of IIWiki, a switch to Miraheze or some other alternative could also be considered.

Existing structures, e.g. regional politics system, use of Discord, communal character spreadsheet, that work, should be retained.


This is the gist but I may add more if I think of more.
edit: this is a "all the things that would be done if we all had a heckin lot of free time and energy"
realistically not all can be done, so this is a "what of these things can we do" (that i think are good)

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

Iiwiki is a lot more of a personal venture than a community one.

Everyone should maintain a nation page on iiwiki, even if it's just an info box, a few paragraphs for info, and some bullet pointed history. What they do after that and where they choose to do it should be at their own discretion.

The rest of your points I don't have anything major to pick apart. Liec can speak to Rome and that history, is it impacts him perhaps the most of any of us.

I like your suggestions for the map and agree that our loose shape should remain. I like that euclea and coius are separate entities and think merging them would make us more earth like.

[Elepis]

I do have some opinions on this I think, but I am knackered from flying and am on holiday, I trust this won't be over for awhile?

[Alleniana]

Iiwiki is a lot more of a personal venture than a community one.

Everyone should maintain a nation page on iiwiki, even if it's just an info box, a few paragraphs for info, and some bullet pointed history. What they do after that and where they choose to do it should be at their own discretion.

The rest of your points I don't have anything major to pick apart. Liec can speak to Rome and that history, is it impacts him perhaps the most of any of us.

I like your suggestions for the map and agree that our loose shape should remain. I like that euclea and coius are separate entities and think merging them would make us more earth like.

Yeah IIWiki I personally don't mind, just think it'd be pertinent to remind people there are alternatives if we so decide.

I do have some opinions on this I think, but I am knackered from flying and am on holiday, I trust this won't be over for awhile?

I imagine so

[Senkaku]

I do have some opinions on this I think, but I am knackered from flying and am on holiday, I trust this won't be over for awhile?

no you have to submit your thoughts RIGHT NOW

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

I'd love to see a more multipolar world, though I do not think we need to use a new map.

[Lunas Legion]

I'd love to see a more multipolar world, though I do not think we need to use a new map.

Problem is the current geography simply isn't conducive to multipolarity because there's a regional hegemon, and as soon as you get a regional hegemon they start creating a bloc of everyone but other potential regional hegemons to prevent anyone else becoming a regional hegemon.

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

I'd love to see a more multipolar world, though I do not think we need to use a new map.

Problem is the current geography simply isn't conducive to multipolarity because there's a regional hegemon, and as soon as you get a regional hegemon they start creating a bloc of everyone but other potential regional hegemons to prevent anyone else becoming a regional hegemon.

The hegemon exists because we say it does, not because the map mandates it.

[Hellenope]

I concur that I like the idea of developing new ideologies, rather than the old Communism vs Capitalism, and Imperialism vs .... anti-imperialists? I don't know, whatever QTO's propaganda machine spits out.

Calt's system seems reasonable for that, and I'm in favor of it. I know Liec is developing variations on fascism based on religious influences and such, so similar efforts can be undertaken in Asteria, Narodnik League, etc.

I also believe that we should break up QTO for various reasons that I'd rather not get too in-depth on. The idea being, however, that our bloc system needs an overhaul, which Senka touched upon briefly.

[Senkaku]

I also believe that we should break up QTO for various reasons that I'd rather not get too in-depth on. The idea being, however, that our bloc system needs an overhaul, which Senka touched upon briefly.

I'm not necessarily opposed, but I'm curious why you think QTO in particular needs breaking up, as opposed to the other blocs.

Tbh I'd support breaking all the blocs up and having each Great Power form its own sphere of influence.

[Caltarania]

I also believe that we should break up QTO for various reasons that I'd rather not get too in-depth on. The idea being, however, that our bloc system needs an overhaul, which Senka touched upon briefly.

I'm not necessarily opposed, but I'm curious why you think QTO in particular needs breaking up, as opposed to the other blocs.

Tbh I'd support breaking all the blocs up and having each Great Power form its own sphere of influence.

I think it's because QTO has all of south Coius pretty much. The Internationale has like 1 or 2 nations, DILDO is large but would be split up under the multipolar world and deals with the new/old world split currently anyway, and PP is of decent size.

[Senkaku]

I'm not necessarily opposed, but I'm curious why you think QTO in particular needs breaking up, as opposed to the other blocs.

Tbh I'd support breaking all the blocs up and having each Great Power form its own sphere of influence.

I think it's because QTO has all of south Coius pretty much. The Internationale has like 1 or 2 nations, DILDO is large but would be split up under the multipolar world and deals with the new/old world split currently anyway, and PP is of decent size.

I'd personally break Hyndana, Fars, and Phula off, perhaps leaving Fars to try and balance the great powers (along with the other petrol producers) and putting Phula firmly in Hynd's SoI. Khatagh could also be somewhat in the Songhua sphere, but because of its size and wildness become a sort of lawless area for Negara, Hyndana, and Songguo play out a Coian Great Game (perhaps along with Darshistan, and in a more civilized way in Fars).

In terms of the DITO breakup, would Gaullica and Estmere then form a sort of Entente along with the minors around them to the PP's Central Powers, with the League looming off to the side (I'm not really a fan of your idea of putting the League on an island, I think it'd be better to have it be on the same landmass as the other Euclean powers) and Asteria going all Monroe Doctrine and allying with Roeselle in the other hemisphere? What do we do with Southern Euclea in all of this?

Also, what should we do with Sveltlana, since Sbet is ded, and with Caesena, since Col is gone?

[Hellenope]

I also believe that we should break up QTO for various reasons that I'd rather not get too in-depth on. The idea being, however, that our bloc system needs an overhaul, which Senka touched upon briefly.

I'm not necessarily opposed, but I'm curious why you think QTO in particular needs breaking up, as opposed to the other blocs.

Tbh I'd support breaking all the blocs up and having each Great Power form its own sphere of influence.

Because the PP is already dominated by a GP (Werania), and so is the Internationale (the Narodnik League), while DITO rarely acts as a unified bloc, thanks to the differing priorities of the Euclean GPs (Estmere and Gaullica) and the Coian GP (Negara), which are often directly opposed to Asteria. DITO is a multi-polar bloc, and I like that, the tug of different priorities and values within the bloc, hamstringing efforts to mobilize en masse on any specific diplomatic topic.

That being said, thanks to the lack of an Estmerish and Negaran player, DITO is rather less divided than it realistically should be. Since we hope to get an Estmerish and Negaran player, however, DITO will likely be more than sufficiently divided. We'll probably break it up anyway, just to be sure, but I'm less concerned about DITO.

QTO in particular needs breaking up, mostly because of OOC dynamics between the players in question, which I believe bleeds over into the IC dynamic. I also note that of all the blocs, QTO seems to do, well, the least as as bloc. Sure, individual QTO members do a lot, but QTO doesn't seem to do anything. I bet there are more posts about the QTODB doing things than QTO doing things, and that's primarily due to Hanny's focus on economic posting.

In short, QTO seems to be OOCly dysfunctional, and relatively pointless ICly, beyond the defensive pact against Nematsu, Negara, and Ahnurvey -- and inactive, to boot.

[Elepis]

I personally think QTO is the most interesting block, sure it may be a bit unactive but that is to do with the players not the block itself. QTO and the PP are the only two blocks that aren't based off or almost carbon copies of a real life block, the League's thing seems a lot like nicer Warsaw Pact where as DITO is NATO but with Indoensia and a slightly weaker America, QTO has no real world analogue

[Elepis]

I personally think QTO is the most interesting block, sure it may be a bit unactive but that is to do with the players not the block itself. QTO and the PP are the only two blocks that aren't based off or almost carbon copies of a real life block, the League's thing seems a lot like nicer Warsaw Pact where as DITO is NATO but with Indoensia and a slightly weaker America, QTO has no real world analogue

also I think if Coius as a whole were more active, QTO would be too

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

I personally think QTO is the most interesting block, sure it may be a bit unactive but that is to do with the players not the block itself. QTO and the PP are the only two blocks that aren't based off or almost carbon copies of a real life block, the League's thing seems a lot like nicer Warsaw Pact where as DITO is NATO but with Indoensia and a slightly weaker America, QTO has no real world analogue

Reeee use of irl nations names.

Negara is really hard to compare to Indonesia, the only real similarities are cultural.

DITO was (intended) to be more dynamic than NATO in that power was somewhat equally shared between Gaullica, Negara, and the Fed. It was also (intended) to be very "reeee muh democracy" and, given Negara, jacobin. Since all members of DITO are republics, it would be interesting to see a more jacobin aspect going forward.

[Senkaku]

mostly because of OOC dynamics between the players in question, which I believe bleeds over into the IC dynamic.

I don't necessarily agree with that.

I also note that of all the blocs, QTO seems to do, well, the least as as bloc. Sure, individual QTO members do a lot, but QTO doesn't seem to do anything...........relatively pointless ICly, beyond the defensive pact against Nematsu, Negara, and Ahnurvey -- and inactive, to boot.

Well, when the countries that are the primary reason for your bloc's existence are inactive, yes, it's hard to do a lot. I agree with breaking QTO up, but I think Kakle's logic for doing so makes more sense.

However, your point about activity is a worthwhile topic to discuss on a regional level. We seem lacking on major RPs independent of the news thread and Political Minds at the moment. I think it'd be good to have a Discord discussion both regarding how much posting should be expected of members and of RP possibilities that offer angles for as many players as possible. Unfortunately, given that there aren't tens of thousands of us, and the fact that we have lives and things going on, RPs that involve just a few players perhaps in some regional conflict or the like tend to have trouble staying active and holding everyone's interest.

In my opinion, part of this is because the way the news thread's timescale works. We've been pretty strongly against backdating or forward-dating or timeskipping, which means there's a time pressure in many RPs to get to certain plot points by certain dates, or if those points haven't been reached due to inactivity, loss of interest, or other pressures, then to just make news posts about them and abandon the thread. I experienced this quite strongly with the Siamati conflict RP and I'm concerned that the news thread's inflexible pace makes RPing more difficult for us sometimes. It even causes issues with plot lines that occur only in the news thread- someone doesn't make a news post on a fast-moving topic like a coup or an election or a terror attack for a few days and suddenly it doesn't really make sense any more. I think we should take a second look at the 1:1 time ratio and our tendency to refuse to allow posts to be dated differently than the day they actually are posted on.

DITO was (intended) to be more dynamic than NATO in that power was somewhat equally shared between Gaullica, Negara, and the Fed. It was also (intended) to be very "reeee muh democracy" and, given Negara, jacobin. Since all members of DITO are republics, it would be interesting to see a more jacobin aspect going forward.

Unfortunately we've ended up with a situation where Euclea has more or less trundled along with the Fed doing some "reee democracy" and Negara hasn't done anything. As for jacobin tendencies- I think a lot of that was from when we had the monarchy bloc and stuff, tbqh, so while it'd be interesting, I don't think there's much need to emphasize it very strongly.

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

There is the ultra-conservative and monarchist (at least in euclea) Perovo Pact.

Re-the news thread: I disagree with this. Every RP ived launched or been in independently of the news thread hasn't had issues bc of the timescale of the news thread.

For example, in strange things happen I posted about the supply deal between Negara and glytter when tnl wasn't around in order to keep with the timescale. When she returned, we RP'd up to that point again.

Another example: Shattered Glass (the 23 August Attacks RP). The attacks had already happened in the news thread and the immediate chain of events was done. The RP essentially RP'd out what happened in the news thread, or at least that timeline.

And finally the Walker Retirement RP. Again, that entire storyline has already finished in the news thread. It hasn't stagnated because of the news thread, but rather bc liec and I have been too busy to jointly write a post and coordinate moving the plot further.

Essentially, I am of the opinion that if anything the news thread is an aide when it comes to RPs. Anything that's time sensitive can be hashed out and posted in the news thread first, and then you can work up to it. You also have important info already posted that can help you flesh out or finish RP posts.

This is not universal of course, but I am of the belief that in virtually all cases this can work if executed well. Most RPs anyway are events that normally wouldn't, at least be fully, covered in the news thread due to their nature.

[Elepis]

To be honest I am not to fond of the news thread as a method to rp, I prefer more well, rp type rps like in P2TM. Political minds sought of does that but it has a problem with inactivity.
I also don't really like the idea of QTO breaking up, i think it would be a lot less interesting for Fars at least but at the same time I want more multi-polarity

[Hellenope]

sure it may be a bit unactive but that is to do with the players not the block itself

No, the players are perfectly active - you post, Senka posts, etc. The issue is that, unlike DITO or the PP, QTO itself doesn't seem to do anything.

also I think if Coius as a whole were more active, QTO would be too

Why can't QTO create activity, internally or externally? Do stuff that fleshes out internal QTO stuff. Do the Muradi RP, the cyber RP, etc. Debate territorial rights, have a Songhuan commit a crime in Fars, and figure out how to resolve the issues of jurisdiction and sovereignty in an increasingly-centralizing pact. Etc.

If QTO is to be a major bloc, it can't be passive or reactive - it has to generate activity, even if it's only internal.

mostly because of OOC dynamics between the players in question, which I believe bleeds over into the IC dynamic.

I don't necessarily agree with that.

That's fine; you don't need to. OOC disputes within QTO are common; my argument is that they bleed over into IC, by diminishing the willingness of people to continue participating in QTO, or remaining committed to QTO, or continuing QTO-relevant RPs.

Your later points are relevant, however. Backdating should be allowed, but relevant people should be pinged if an important post is backdated.

[Elepis]

sure it may be a bit unactive but that is to do with the players not the block itself

No, the players are perfectly active - you post, Senka posts, etc. The issue is that, unlike DITO or the PP, QTO itself doesn't seem to do anything.

well sen posts the most, apart from the post I made a few days ago I hadn't posted since April, Hanny just does shit with economics and Har and Kai never post, and we have never had a Cheonhae

also I think if Coius as a whole were more active, QTO would be too

Why can't QTO create activity, internally or externally? Do stuff that fleshes out internal QTO stuff. Do the Muradi RP, the cyber RP, etc. Debate territorial rights, have a Songhuan commit a crime in Fars, and figure out how to resolve the issues of jurisdiction and sovereignty in an increasingly-centralizing pact. Etc.

If QTO is to be a major bloc, it can't be passive or reactive - it has to generate activity, even if it's only internal.

Well Muradi we were planning, it just hasn't happened yet and as there is no Muradi player it is a bit hard, cyber thing we are again planning, and the rest is just down to a lack of imagination and/or inactivity. I haven't been able to rp for a month and Sen has been busy, as had Hanny. Maybe now with us all free we will, but there is little point if it is going to dissolve. We also made a bank

[Lunas Legion]

No, the players are perfectly active - you post, Senka posts, etc. The issue is that, unlike DITO or the PP, QTO itself doesn't seem to do anything.

well sen posts the most, apart from the post I made a few days ago I hadn't posted since April, Hanny just does shit with economics and Har and Kai never post, and we have never had a Cheonhae.

That's part of the issue. Hanny has only done economic stuff. You can't post about much without an Anhurvey (or however its spelt) and likewise Sen can't do much without Negara. Kat-however the fuck its spelt may as well not exist for the amount of times Har has posted for it (and that it has a stupid number of ethnic minorities needs to be dealt with too TBH), ditto for Phula but at least Phula has some history behind it wiki-side and Kai probably would post for it, if she had anything to post about.

[The Kingdom of Glitter]

A few things to add re-news thread:
1. Backdating by a day or two isn't really an issue. It depends by how much you want to backdate the post. I'd be fine to say that you can backdate a post within the week. Anything more than that imo is too much. I do find it odd that Sen reees about the discontinuity of the current thread due to old-canon but has no issue with keeping the canon in chronological order.
2. As reminder, we have a twitter thread that is canon. If you don't have time to write a full news story, tweet a headline from your news agency. I am happy to shrink images down to use as twitter avatars for anyone who needs it done.

I also agree with many of Mish's and now Lunas' points re-QTO. Even if QTO does a state visit RP or something where it announces a new bilateral deal between two of its members. Or as Mish said, have a Songman killed someone in Fars and cause a spat over that, or something. This is one way to RP outside of the news thread. I do agree that the news thread should not be our only source of RP, but I imagine it will remain the primary source for regional RP.

I mentioned this before and, should QTO continue to exist in its current form, I am of the opinion it should have a thread. A place where delegations can discuss issues or whatever. Discussions may be as simple as "Do we support investing X amount of money into Y country?" "Yeah", "Phula votes aye", "Yes from Fars", etc. It could be as complex as debating the membership of a new state, setting up new QTO institutions, etc. etc. But that would be one way for QTO to do more than just discuss stuff in its thread for for its members to get an extra source of RP.

[Senkaku]

Do the Muradi RP, the cyber RP, etc. Debate territorial rights, have a Songhuan commit a crime in Fars, and figure out how to resolve the issues of jurisdiction and sovereignty in an increasingly-centralizing pact. Etc.

If QTO is to be a major bloc, it can't be passive or reactive - it has to generate activity, even if it's only internal.

I guess I find the inactivity argument silly and misrepresentative as opposed to the new balance of power argument, but we agree on the end result required, so w/e.

Assuming the map isn't radically changed, and QTO and DITO are broken up, what blocs are we going to end up with? I'm imagining Gaullican-Estmerish, Weranian, Narodnik, Hyndanan, Negaran, Asterian, and Songhua spheres of influence, but are there other countries we want to give some more geopolitical clout to?