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Vachena
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Founded: Apr 16, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Vachena » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:25 am

Direct HEAT is indeed, highly ineffective against modern tanks. I don't recall ever suggesting it's use. A tandem HEAT/EFP top-attack ATGM will incapacitate just about every tank in use. Basically every modern ATGM operates on that principle. This is partly the reason I brought up range, which I should probably rephrase. The main reason to mount ATGMs on a tank is that they have top-attack capability, which is pretty much the most effective method of destroying any tank. They have better penetrating ability (especially against ERA) and a much higher chance of catastrophic kill than APFSDS. The extra range is useful in an admittedly small number of circumstances, but not the main reason to utilize them. I didn't mean to give that impression, I apologize if I did.

Also a reason not to use ATGM carriers is you're putting all your eggs in one basket. I'm pretty sure this is why cannon-fired ATGMs were used in the first place. If you have an armored force, say for the purposes of this, 4 tanks and one ATGM carrier with 10 missiles, and you lose your ATGM carrier, the group immediately loses 100% of it's ATGM capability. If you have 5 tanks with 2 missiles each you have pretty much the same ATGM-firing capability.

Also if you don't want to spend time vulnerable while guiding the ATGM, then just don't. Semi-active system on the turret can track a target as it would for it's main cannon. A modern IIR or ARH guidance system is fire-and-forget. The impact on the tanks normal operation should probably be less than a cannon-fired ATGM, since the tank doesn't have to load a shell after firing it's ATGM(s). Most full size ATGMs are 25-50 kg. If we allow for even 300 kg of electronics, mounting, etc. and 4 missiles, that's at most 500 kg. Not even 1% for an Abrams M1A2. Pretty much every tank I know of has some mechanism to allow soldiers to mount with a fixed turret, whose body and equipment weight exceed that by a fair amount.

The costs of implementation and use shouldn't be much different than that of cannon-launched ATGMs, other than if you're mounting more advanced or larger ATGMs that aren't compatible with the cannon. Any ATGM could be mounted, some of them cheap, some of them expensive. I proposed this an alternative for countries like the US that don't currently use cannon-fired ATGMs, but have developed existing, effective ATGMs that are used on other platforms. Doing so would require either importing from another country or spending money on R&D. While researching it I concluded it does seem superior to them in a few ways, and while they are more expensive, I would rather have a more combat effective tank than a cheaper tank. How resources are spent is a matter of military doctrine which is going to vary from country to country. You don't have to be so quick to use absolutes.
Last edited by Vachena on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:40 am

Vachena wrote:Direct HEAT is indeed, highly ineffective against modern tanks. I don't recall ever suggesting it's use. A tandem HEAT/EFP top-attack ATGM will incapacitate just about every tank in use.

So would a point-accurate high velocity projectile fired from the main cannon of an M1A2, Leopard 2A5, Merkava Mk IV, K2 Panther, Leclerc, Challenger 2.

Basically every modern ATGM operates on that principle.

That they have to circumvent all of the armor on a tank by entering some sort of terminal attack pattern? It's a weakness too that everyone has been pointing out.

This is partly the reason I brought up range, which I should probably rephrase. The main reason to mount ATGMs on a tank is that they have top-attack capability,

No, the main reason to do it is because your tank's main cannon has now been outclassed by the armor its facing in the field at which point you're probably not even fielding advanced enough ATGM's to help much in regards to increasing survivability.

which is pretty much the most effective method of destroying any tank.

No, the most effective method of destroying any tank is to plant a series of explosive charges within the hull and detonate them all simultaneously while the thing is packed full of thermite. Or even better? Detonate a nuke inside of the tank.

For cost effectiveness, a single high-velocity armor piercing round through a point-target at three kilometers from a modern MBT with such targeting systems works much better. Gun stabilization allows for higher precision and accuracy, not only on the move, but when coming to a sudden stop on your suspension or dealing with external stimuli.

For field effectiveness, a single high-velocity- oh. Right. This happens to be the same thing for cost effectiveness, which is why the modern armies of the world aren't using such designs.

They have better penetrating ability (especially against ERA) and a much higher chance of catastrophic kill than APFSDS.

So you have hard data on the penetrating capability of modern classified weapon penetrators versus modern classified armor and crew protection systems? In battle, you know what you prefer? Not the total kill, but the momentary kill. You whittle down enemy reserves, not eliminate them all in one fell-blow unless you want to nuke them.

The extra range is useful in an admittedly small number of circumstances, but not the main reason to utilize them. I didn't mean to give that impression, I apologize if I did.

It was one of several impressions you've given, the others is that you're trying to put all your eggs and functions in one basket or chassis.

Also a reason not to use ATGM carriers is you're putting all your eggs in one basket.

No, putting all your ATGM's with your armor, and not on dedicated chassis is what it means to put all your eggs in one basket, one, very heavily armored basket with a lot of highly excitable eggs.

I'm pretty sure this is why cannon-fired ATGMs were used in the first place.

No, it's not actually...[/quote] The MGM-51 was developed as a medium range part of a short, medium, and long range attack system. I ripped that one straight from the wiki.

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K112_Kobra]This little gem...
includes a nice little piece on where Soviet Missile Tanks came from. Nikita just thought they would be cool. Early attempts were a failure, but then they were brought back because America made one too. Dick-waving ensued.

If you have an armored force, say for the purposes of this, 4 tanks and one ATGM carrier with 10 missiles, and you lose your ATGM carrier, the group immediately loses 100% of it's ATGM capability. If you have 5 tanks with 2 missiles each you have pretty much the same ATGM-firing capability.

No, if Johnny has 4 tanks, and one ATGM carrier with 10 missiles, Johnny's a dipshit for moving his ranged support unit up with his vanguard. Your ATGM carrier should be in the back with all of its friends, far from anything actually dangerous, picking off targets of opportunity the tanks don't care about, because the tanks are hunting tanks.

If Johnny gets five tanks with 2 missiles each, he has five tanks running around shooting their shells and not caring to use their rockets, because they really don't want to sit still to get shot back at. So Johnny gets to keep his 2 missiles each.

Also if you don't want to spend time vulnerable while guiding the ATGM, then just don't. Semi-active system on the turret can track a target as it would for it's main cannon.

Rockets generate force and force generates dust and debris in the sight picture, unless you want a periscope sensor array which would be weird, and make that tank get picked on in school.

A modern IIR or ARH guidance system is fire-and-forget.

Yep and it's a lot more effective when used from above already, like on a helicopter platform designed for attacking ground targets. We'll just call it a new concept for this purpose, we'll call it an 'attack helicopter'. Yes, now I'm being sarcastic.

The impact on the tanks normal operation should probably be less than a cannon-fired ATGM, since the tank doesn't have to load a shell after firing it's ATGM(s). Most full size ATGMs are 25-50 kg. If we allow for even 300 kg of electronics, mounting, etc. and 4 missiles, that's at most 500 kg. Not even 1% for an Abrams M1A2. Pretty much every tank I know of has some mechanism to allow soldiers to mount with a fixed turret, whose body and equipment weight exceed that by a fair amount.

You know what you could add then? Trophy, or another APS/ADS/DEW. Strong defense is what makes a tank excellent for offense. They take the punishment, literally 'tanking' so others don't have to. Yes, T-90's have been knocked out by TOW's recently. Were those Russians expecting TOW missiles? Probably not, or those videos would have told a different story, if any at all I'm willing to bet.

The costs of implementation and use shouldn't be much different than that of cannon-launched ATGMs, other than if you're mounting more advanced or larger ATGMs that aren't compatible with the cannon. Any ATGM could be mounted, some of them cheap, some of them expensive. I proposed this an alternative for countries like the US that don't currently use cannon-fired ATGMs, but have developed existing, effective ATGMs that are used on other platforms. Doing so would require either importing from another country or spending money on R&D.

Or you could spend money on increasing your tank's ability to survive and trust your gunner knows how to do his job in hitting a target he can see, while leaving what he can't see to air support, artillery, and your forward observers.

While researching it I concluded it does seem superior to them in a few ways, and while they are more expensive, I would rather have a more combat effective tank than a cheaper tank.
You've concluded that a tank that does more is better than a tank that does its job better. A tank, is a vehicle built to 'tank'. What does that term mean to you? Do you play any video games with RPG (role play game, not rocket-propelled grenade) elements? A tank 'tanks' damage, or takes it to the face and laughs. A tank is supposed to shrug off damage. Well, they don't do that anymore, but they're built with survivability in direct-fire engagements in mind. That survivability goes up with increased sensors, countermeasures, and reaction timing. It drops with increased reload times, slower attack speed, and giving up of precious roof-space to external weapons it doesn't even need.

How resources are spent is a matter of military doctrine which is going to vary from country to country. You don't have to be so quick to use absolutes.

re·al·ism
ˈrē(ə)ˌlizəm/
noun
1.
the attitude or practice of accepting a situation as it is and being prepared to deal with it accordingly.
"the summit was marked by a new mood of realism"
synonyms: pragmatism, practicality, common sense, levelheadedness
"optimism tinged with realism"
2.
the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life.
"the earthy realism of Raimu's characters"
synonyms: authenticity, fidelity, verisimilitude, truthfulness, faithfulness
"a degree of realism"


When every nation in the world save for the one that went the road of making cannon rockets for the sake of making them, has invested in adding protective systems to their tanks, and even newer tanks getting those systems built in... don't you think someone who is determined to try and bring back a spectre of the cold war from the side that ultimately lost is defying realism? It's been shown that not only is it not needed, it's not realistic to expect it to work. The nations of the world tried, they really did. Rockets and missiles were supposed to be the future. They were supposed to be the death of the unguided bomb and bullet. Precision on demand. You know what happened? The dumb-fire munition remained and brute force remained an element of war.

Tanks are the epitome of brute force in warfare, even if they can't be used as they once were, as terrifying indestructible landships built to terrify the enemy (even if they were actually really only horrid and didn't work well). No, now we have things built to kill them, so we build stuff to keep them alive in spite of what's trying to kill them, and then we work to make them better in their role, the direct-fire role. They take direct fire and dish it out. Leave the IDF forces to fight their games of hide and seek and support.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:49 am

Vachena wrote:they're a lot cheaper than I was expecting.


That's because Special Armor stops pretty much all of those except Javelin and Spike-ER.

Vachena wrote:They're not meant to replace the cannon as the primary armament, just augment it.


Return these stolen memes to the 1960s, please.

Vachena wrote:be used 90% of the time.


*100%.

Vachena wrote:fight in those other 10% of situations


It won't.

Vachena wrote:but not by much for a MBT, and as Gallia said earlier, it's already pretty hard to hide a tank.


Please don't put words in my mouth.

I was obviously:

1) Speaking in the context of standing still and guided a gun-launched missile like Shillelagh or Svir to a target.
2) Comparing it to a dismounted light infantry team with a Javelin, who have a fire-and-forget weapon and a much smaller signature than a tank.

Vachena wrote:Direct HEAT is indeed, highly ineffective against modern tanks. I don't recall ever suggesting it's use.


(...) 9M133 Kornet (...) 9K121 Vikhr (...) AGM-114L (...) PARS 3 LR (...) Brimstone (...)


Don't lie.

Vachena wrote:Also a reason not to use ATGM carriers is you're putting all your eggs in one basket. I'm pretty sure this is why cannon-fired ATGMs were used in the first place.


You'd be wrong. They were looked at in the West because tank ammunition of the period (1950's and 1960's) was because fire control systems were bad. It turns out that giving tanks laser rangefinders and stabilized guns helps more than giving them actively guided projectiles.

This has been known for longer than most people in this thread have been alive, though.

Vachena wrote:A modern IIR


Which isn't being fired out of a gun.

Vachena wrote:You don't have to be so quick to use absolutes.


A good LRP can kill a tank out to horizon.

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Kouralia
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Postby Kouralia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:33 am

Vachena wrote:You don't have to be so quick to use absolutes.

Image
Kouralia:

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Dostanuot Loj
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:35 am

Well I'm on vacation so only have my phone, and I don't care to quote multiple big posts on this POS, so I'm just going to say this has been two pages of lulz.

I'm gonna go fondle a Leopard 1 this afternoon, listen to Gallia, it is a smart fungus.
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Kouralia
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Postby Kouralia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:36 am

Dostanuot Loj wrote:Well I'm on vacation so only have my phone, and I don't care to quote multiple big posts on this POS, so I'm just going to say this has been two pages of lulz.

I'm gonna go fondle a Leopard 1 this afternoon, listen to Gallia, it is a smart fungus.

Do we have to?
Kouralia:


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Dostanuot Loj
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:53 am

Kouralia wrote:
Dostanuot Loj wrote:Well I'm on vacation so only have my phone, and I don't care to quote multiple big posts on this POS, so I'm just going to say this has been two pages of lulz.

I'm gonna go fondle a Leopard 1 this afternoon, listen to Gallia, it is a smart fungus.

Do we have to?


Yes?
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Wait.

No. This isn't MGVoYN.

All threads are MGVoYN.
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North Arkana
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Postby North Arkana » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:56 am

The only nod I've given to the dark side of MOAR ATGMS is a non-rocket powered IR seeking top attack (because ballistic trajectory and some fins, I'm not making this super silly) round which *can* be fired from a tank main gun, but pretty much is just waiting to converted into like, a mortar or artillery round.
Last edited by North Arkana on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:36 am

Gallia- wrote:You can do a hand off but it's still going to require someone to be bait for ain gun rounds, unless it's a hypervelocity missile, but at that point you're back to long-rods and might as well be firing non-powered munitions anyway.


You could do handoffs like the AH-64 and OH-58 Kiowas, except with (insert tank that fires ATGMs via gun) and an OH-58 knockoff. However, I doubt it'd be effective unless you are in areas with notable crests like large sand dunes, hills, mountains, etc etc. Plus your tanks would be fucked since you need more handoff platforms to direct all the fire. I find it a solution looking for a problem.
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:40 am

North Arkana wrote:The only nod I've given to the dark side of MOAR ATGMS is a non-rocket powered IR seeking top attack (because ballistic trajectory and some fins, I'm not making this super silly) round which *can* be fired from a tank main gun, but pretty much is just waiting to converted into like, a mortar or artillery round.


I do believe there is a variation on this is in development. The M982 Excalibur comes to mind when it comes to a guided non-rocket GPS targeting top attack. To get the IR or laser guided performance, someone would have to develop a compatible arty shell tip that would do the job. I'm pretty sure the idea is in the works.
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:08 am

Vachena wrote:-snip-


So it's literally just "muh top attack" and "muh range?"

The 1990s called and would like a word.
Pictured: gun-launched, unpowered, F&F, stand-off top-attack round.
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Austrasien
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Postby Austrasien » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:59 am

Vachena wrote:Also a reason not to use ATGM carriers is you're putting all your eggs in one basket. I'm pretty sure this is why cannon-fired ATGMs were used in the first place. If you have an armored force, say for the purposes of this, 4 tanks and one ATGM carrier with 10 missiles, and you lose your ATGM carrier, the group immediately loses 100% of it's ATGM capability. If you have 5 tanks with 2 missiles each you have pretty much the same ATGM-firing capability.


Do you give every infantry squad mortars, just in case the mortar platoon gets destroyed?

No.

And again, it wouldn't matter much. Indirect fire systems do not need to support just the unit they are attached to. If a tank platoon loses the assigned support vehicle, there are two or three more platoons in the company which have the same vehicle.

Both Israel and Russia developed or were developing extended range top attack weapons for tanks (LAHAT and Sokol). Both have abandoned them. Both have however adopted long-range top attack ATGMs and are using them operationally (Spike NLOS and Germes).
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Postby EsToVnIa » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:17 am

Gallia- wrote:STAFF was kind of shit though.

MRM-CE was a lot better on account of being a diving top attack hollow charge rather than EFP.


STAFF tried his hardest
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Laritaia
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Postby Laritaia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:18 am

EsToVnIa wrote:
Gallia- wrote:STAFF was kind of shit though.

MRM-CE was a lot better on account of being a diving top attack hollow charge rather than EFP.


STAFF tried his hardest


and for that he gets the participation award, and a low level feature in a video game

like so many other ultimately pointless military development projects
Last edited by Laritaia on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby North Arkana » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:32 pm

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NeuPolska
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Postby NeuPolska » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:16 pm

Is there a way to realistically take out a cruise missile after it's been launched, and how would I have to go about preparing defenses that can protect military assets from a cruise missile attack?

I was thinking of ways to protect a large radar array (or really any important structure or asset that isn't on tracks or wheels) with mostly static defenses. I figure trenches and artillery as well as anti-air batteries should do a good job of holding enemy forces back, especially if armored and mechanized detachments are stationed close enough to be able to reinforce said array.

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Laritaia
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Postby Laritaia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:22 pm

NeuPolska wrote:Is there a way to realistically take out a cruise missile after it's been launched

Missiles work

there is a video somewhere of an RAF pilot chasing down a Storm shadow in a Eurofighter simulator

NeuPolska wrote:and how would I have to go about preparing defenses that can protect military assets from a cruise missile attack?

an integrated network of high performance SAMs and AAA

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NeuPolska
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Postby NeuPolska » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:48 pm

Laritaia wrote:
NeuPolska wrote:Is there a way to realistically take out a cruise missile after it's been launched

Missiles work

there is a video somewhere of an RAF pilot chasing down a Storm shadow in a Eurofighter simulator

NeuPolska wrote:and how would I have to go about preparing defenses that can protect military assets from a cruise missile attack?

an integrated network of high performance SAMs and AAA

Huh, I didn't realize it'd be as simple as just using another missile.

Seems quite doable.

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Laritaia
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Postby Laritaia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:55 pm

NeuPolska wrote:
Laritaia wrote:Missiles work

there is a video somewhere of an RAF pilot chasing down a Storm shadow in a Eurofighter simulator


an integrated network of high performance SAMs and AAA

Huh, I didn't realize it'd be as simple as just using another missile.

Seems quite doable.


the hard part is finding the cruise missile, they can be programmed to fly some pretty hard to track flight paths

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NeuPolska
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Postby NeuPolska » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:04 pm

Laritaia wrote:the hard part is finding the cruise missile, they can be programmed to fly some pretty hard to track flight paths

Would the aforementioned radar array help with tracking it?

Missiles give off a lot of heat too, so I would think it wouldn't be too difficult for a salvo of missiles to hunt it down, especially if programmed to detonate within the general vicinity of the enemy cruise missile (close enough to cause it to either send it way off course or cause it to detonate prematurely)

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Laritaia
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Postby Laritaia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:07 pm

NeuPolska wrote:
Laritaia wrote:the hard part is finding the cruise missile, they can be programmed to fly some pretty hard to track flight paths

Would the aforementioned radar array help with tracking it?

Missiles give off a lot of heat too, so I would think it wouldn't be too difficult for a salvo of missiles to hunt it down, especially if programmed to detonate within the general vicinity of the enemy cruise missile (close enough to cause it to either send it way off course or cause it to detonate prematurely)


the missiles will hide behind things the radar can't see through till it's far too late to stop them

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DnalweN acilbupeR
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Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:12 pm

North Arkana wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Mission_Effects_Vehicle

The "I WANT TO DO EVERYTHING" vehicle.


Is the concept fundamentally flawed or just this a bad implementation?
Last edited by DnalweN acilbupeR on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:15 pm

With a look down/shoot down radar you could have a good chance of seeing and engaging cruise missiles. You just need to have aircraft available with the right radar.
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