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by Vachena » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:25 am
by Kassaran » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:40 am
Vachena wrote:Direct HEAT is indeed, highly ineffective against modern tanks. I don't recall ever suggesting it's use. A tandem HEAT/EFP top-attack ATGM will incapacitate just about every tank in use.
Basically every modern ATGM operates on that principle.
This is partly the reason I brought up range, which I should probably rephrase. The main reason to mount ATGMs on a tank is that they have top-attack capability,
which is pretty much the most effective method of destroying any tank.
They have better penetrating ability (especially against ERA) and a much higher chance of catastrophic kill than APFSDS.
The extra range is useful in an admittedly small number of circumstances, but not the main reason to utilize them. I didn't mean to give that impression, I apologize if I did.
Also a reason not to use ATGM carriers is you're putting all your eggs in one basket.
I'm pretty sure this is why cannon-fired ATGMs were used in the first place.
If you have an armored force, say for the purposes of this, 4 tanks and one ATGM carrier with 10 missiles, and you lose your ATGM carrier, the group immediately loses 100% of it's ATGM capability. If you have 5 tanks with 2 missiles each you have pretty much the same ATGM-firing capability.
Also if you don't want to spend time vulnerable while guiding the ATGM, then just don't. Semi-active system on the turret can track a target as it would for it's main cannon.
A modern IIR or ARH guidance system is fire-and-forget.
The impact on the tanks normal operation should probably be less than a cannon-fired ATGM, since the tank doesn't have to load a shell after firing it's ATGM(s). Most full size ATGMs are 25-50 kg. If we allow for even 300 kg of electronics, mounting, etc. and 4 missiles, that's at most 500 kg. Not even 1% for an Abrams M1A2. Pretty much every tank I know of has some mechanism to allow soldiers to mount with a fixed turret, whose body and equipment weight exceed that by a fair amount.
The costs of implementation and use shouldn't be much different than that of cannon-launched ATGMs, other than if you're mounting more advanced or larger ATGMs that aren't compatible with the cannon. Any ATGM could be mounted, some of them cheap, some of them expensive. I proposed this an alternative for countries like the US that don't currently use cannon-fired ATGMs, but have developed existing, effective ATGMs that are used on other platforms. Doing so would require either importing from another country or spending money on R&D.
You've concluded that a tank that does more is better than a tank that does its job better. A tank, is a vehicle built to 'tank'. What does that term mean to you? Do you play any video games with RPG (role play game, not rocket-propelled grenade) elements? A tank 'tanks' damage, or takes it to the face and laughs. A tank is supposed to shrug off damage. Well, they don't do that anymore, but they're built with survivability in direct-fire engagements in mind. That survivability goes up with increased sensors, countermeasures, and reaction timing. It drops with increased reload times, slower attack speed, and giving up of precious roof-space to external weapons it doesn't even need.While researching it I concluded it does seem superior to them in a few ways, and while they are more expensive, I would rather have a more combat effective tank than a cheaper tank.
How resources are spent is a matter of military doctrine which is going to vary from country to country. You don't have to be so quick to use absolutes.
re·al·ism
ˈrē(ə)ˌlizəm/
noun
1.
the attitude or practice of accepting a situation as it is and being prepared to deal with it accordingly.
"the summit was marked by a new mood of realism"
synonyms: pragmatism, practicality, common sense, levelheadedness
"optimism tinged with realism"
2.
the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life.
"the earthy realism of Raimu's characters"
synonyms: authenticity, fidelity, verisimilitude, truthfulness, faithfulness
"a degree of realism"
Zarkenis Ultima wrote:Tristan noticed footsteps behind him and looked there, only to see Eric approaching and then pointing his sword at the girl. He just blinked a few times at this before speaking.
"Put that down, Mr. Eric." He said. "She's obviously not a chicken."
by Gallia- » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:49 am
Vachena wrote:they're a lot cheaper than I was expecting.
Vachena wrote:They're not meant to replace the cannon as the primary armament, just augment it.
Vachena wrote:be used 90% of the time.
Vachena wrote:fight in those other 10% of situations
Vachena wrote:but not by much for a MBT, and as Gallia said earlier, it's already pretty hard to hide a tank.
Vachena wrote:Direct HEAT is indeed, highly ineffective against modern tanks. I don't recall ever suggesting it's use.
(...) 9M133 Kornet (...) 9K121 Vikhr (...) AGM-114L (...) PARS 3 LR (...) Brimstone (...)
Vachena wrote:Also a reason not to use ATGM carriers is you're putting all your eggs in one basket. I'm pretty sure this is why cannon-fired ATGMs were used in the first place.
Vachena wrote:A modern IIR
Vachena wrote:You don't have to be so quick to use absolutes.
by Dostanuot Loj » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:35 am
by Kouralia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:36 am
Dostanuot Loj wrote:Well I'm on vacation so only have my phone, and I don't care to quote multiple big posts on this POS, so I'm just going to say this has been two pages of lulz.
I'm gonna go fondle a Leopard 1 this afternoon, listen to Gallia, it is a smart fungus.
by Gallia- » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:43 am
by Dostanuot Loj » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:53 am
by North Arkana » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:56 am
by Rhodesialund » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:36 am
Gallia- wrote:You can do a hand off but it's still going to require someone to be bait for ain gun rounds, unless it's a hypervelocity missile, but at that point you're back to long-rods and might as well be firing non-powered munitions anyway.
by Rhodesialund » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:40 am
North Arkana wrote:The only nod I've given to the dark side of MOAR ATGMS is a non-rocket powered IR seeking top attack (because ballistic trajectory and some fins, I'm not making this super silly) round which *can* be fired from a tank main gun, but pretty much is just waiting to converted into like, a mortar or artillery round.
by The Akasha Colony » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:08 am
Vachena wrote:-snip-
by Gallia- » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:12 am
by Austrasien » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:59 am
Vachena wrote:Also a reason not to use ATGM carriers is you're putting all your eggs in one basket. I'm pretty sure this is why cannon-fired ATGMs were used in the first place. If you have an armored force, say for the purposes of this, 4 tanks and one ATGM carrier with 10 missiles, and you lose your ATGM carrier, the group immediately loses 100% of it's ATGM capability. If you have 5 tanks with 2 missiles each you have pretty much the same ATGM-firing capability.
by Laritaia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:18 am
by NeuPolska » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:16 pm
Kar-Esseria wrote:Who is that and are they female because if not then they can go make love to their hand.
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Go home Polska wins NS.
United Mongol Hordes wrote:Polska isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Hurd you miss the point more than Polska misses Poland.
Rhodesialund wrote:when you have Charlie ten feet away or something operating operationally.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Gayla is living in 1985 but these guys are already in 1916
by Laritaia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:22 pm
NeuPolska wrote:Is there a way to realistically take out a cruise missile after it's been launched
NeuPolska wrote:and how would I have to go about preparing defenses that can protect military assets from a cruise missile attack?
by NeuPolska » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:48 pm
Laritaia wrote:NeuPolska wrote:Is there a way to realistically take out a cruise missile after it's been launched
Missiles work
there is a video somewhere of an RAF pilot chasing down a Storm shadow in a Eurofighter simulatorNeuPolska wrote:and how would I have to go about preparing defenses that can protect military assets from a cruise missile attack?
an integrated network of high performance SAMs and AAA
Kar-Esseria wrote:Who is that and are they female because if not then they can go make love to their hand.
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Go home Polska wins NS.
United Mongol Hordes wrote:Polska isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Hurd you miss the point more than Polska misses Poland.
Rhodesialund wrote:when you have Charlie ten feet away or something operating operationally.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Gayla is living in 1985 but these guys are already in 1916
by NeuPolska » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:04 pm
Laritaia wrote:the hard part is finding the cruise missile, they can be programmed to fly some pretty hard to track flight paths
Kar-Esseria wrote:Who is that and are they female because if not then they can go make love to their hand.
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Go home Polska wins NS.
United Mongol Hordes wrote:Polska isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Hurd you miss the point more than Polska misses Poland.
Rhodesialund wrote:when you have Charlie ten feet away or something operating operationally.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Gayla is living in 1985 but these guys are already in 1916
by Laritaia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:07 pm
NeuPolska wrote:Laritaia wrote:the hard part is finding the cruise missile, they can be programmed to fly some pretty hard to track flight paths
Would the aforementioned radar array help with tracking it?
Missiles give off a lot of heat too, so I would think it wouldn't be too difficult for a salvo of missiles to hunt it down, especially if programmed to detonate within the general vicinity of the enemy cruise missile (close enough to cause it to either send it way off course or cause it to detonate prematurely)
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:12 pm
North Arkana wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Mission_Effects_Vehicle
The "I WANT TO DO EVERYTHING" vehicle.
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
by Spirit of Hope » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:15 pm
Imperializt Russia wrote:Support biblical marriage! One SoH and as many wives and sex slaves as he can afford!
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