Argument Thread OOC Future Tech Only

[-Raysia-]

I'm not entirely sure that this thread, nor the "How Powerful..." thread for that matter, are the best places for you to be airing your dirty laundry, guys.

nope... that's what started this thread..

The only thing is, I've actually managed to learn to deal with certain difficult and stubborn people, whereas other people think that if you stay mad at them long enough they'll change

[Kanuckistan]

Haha, I've pretty much given up the fight against the Hermes FTLi... It's ridiculous, but apparently necessary.

I'm weird because:
a) My ships do not travel faster than light, they basically just teleport.
b) I don't have any sort of Inertial Dampeners / superpowerful engine that works on Newtonian physics.
c) I do have a drive that works -similarly- to my fold drive that can give me great sublight speeds if needed.

Actually, my main FTL is basicly quantum teleportation, and my sublight drives come in reactionless, and the more expensive inertialess, flavours.

So maybe not as weird as you thought.

[Capsule Corporation]

Haha, I've pretty much given up the fight against the Hermes FTLi... It's ridiculous, but apparently necessary.

I'm weird because:
a) My ships do not travel faster than light, they basically just teleport.
b) I don't have any sort of Inertial Dampeners / superpowerful engine that works on Newtonian physics.
c) I do have a drive that works -similarly- to my fold drive that can give me great sublight speeds if needed.

Actually, my main FTL is basicly quantum teleportation, and my sublight drives come in reactionless, and the more expensive inertialess, flavours.

So maybe not as weird as you thought.

Just goes to show that "Faster than light" is a misnomer... because, if you don't actually travel, you just change locations, then technically your speed is a non-factor.... so saying you're "faster" than light is just... technically wrong... you very well could be transported to a place light may not be able to reach.

So, if you want to be a jerk, you can just ignore FTLi on that technicality... I tried to for a while

[-Bretonia-]

Technically, faster than light travel is impossible. The various technobabble systems we use, for the most part, are generally termed 'apparent' faster than light velocities. So instantaneously transporting from spot to another would 'appear' to be faster than light, even if the dude hasn't actually moved. He might not have even realised what was going on, in which case he would no doubt be extremely confused.

[Feazanthia]

As I understand it, real quantum entanglement does not circumvent relativity and is not in fact faster-than-light.

[-Raysia-]

Technically, faster than light travel is impossible. The various technobabble systems we use, for the most part, are generally termed 'apparent' faster than light velocities. So instantaneously transporting from spot to another would 'appear' to be faster than light, even if the dude hasn't actually moved. He might not have even realised what was going on, in which case he would no doubt be extremely confused.

What... are you talking about.... lol I'm so lost in your argument...

When people talk about traveling "faster than light," they are talking about moving from one location to another at a velocity (change in position divided by time) faster than light (as measured in a standard vacuum of space... 3x10⁸ m/s) can travel the same course, unaided.

That's all they mean... we're not actually taking about Newtonian physics here... or even Einstein's physics... something far above.

What my argument was, is that I can't call my interstellar drive "FTL" because the word "faster" is an indication of relative velocity... change in position, divided by time... really big number, divided by zero. dividing by zero makes the velocity undefined... it has no velocity.... so calling it "faster" than light is technically incorrect.

[-Bretonia-]

What I mean is, all these FTL systems... hyperspace, wormholes, spacefolding and the like... don't actually see the vessel or confused dude in question 'breaking the light barrier', but rather getting around it. With one or two exceptions, these ships are going around relativity rather than trying to argue with it. So they're 'apparent' faster-than-light velocities, because they give the impression of zooming ahead of photons when actually they're just taking a short-cut.

If you set up a race between a Star Destroyer and a photon to see which would get to a planet faster, the Star Destroyer would beat the photon by miles, giving the impression that it was moving faster than light when in actuality, it was just taking a short-cut through hyperspace.

I wasn't arguing with you, just pointing out that none of these fancy systems we use are faster-than-light in the strictest sense of the word.

[Neo-Mekanta]

divided by zero

OH SHI-


I'd like to add... All of the FTL and FTLi debate becomes meaningless when you cease to obey the laws of physics, cosmic horror style.

... Cthulhu nation in five... four... three...

[-Raysia-]

What I mean is, all these FTL systems... hyperspace, wormholes, spacefolding and the like... don't actually see the vessel or confused dude in question 'breaking the light barrier', but rather getting around it. With one or two exceptions, these ships are going around relativity rather than trying to argue with it. So they're 'apparent' faster-than-light velocities, because they give the impression of zooming ahead of photons when actually they're just taking a short-cut.

If you set up a race between a Star Destroyer and a photon to see which would get to a planet faster, the Star Destroyer would beat the photon by miles, giving the impression that it was moving faster than light when in actuality, it was just taking a short-cut through hyperspace.

I wasn't arguing with you, just pointing out that none of these fancy systems we use are faster-than-light in the strictest sense of the word.

And here comes the math again.

velocity = difference of position (distance) divided by time elapsed (from an objective perspective)

velocity of light: 10 trillion kilometers (1 light year) divided by 1 year = 300,000 km/s

velocity of some sort of hyperspace drive: 10 trillion km divided by 10 seconds = 1 trillion km/s

Clearly, the velocity of this hyperspace drive is faster than the velocity of light... taking a shortcut is irrelevant. A car can be faster than an airplane, all things considered.... (layover, mechanical difficulties, airport security, etc etc... a 1 hour airplane ride could easily be beaten by a 5 hour car trip.... one person arrives at the airport at the same time the car leaves... the clock begins then. Departure to destination, divided by time... that's velocity.... yes, of course the plane is, for some specific points, traveling at a faster rate than the car, but not in total. We're looking at totals here.

Light, traveling it's fastest, most optimal route, vs a hyperdrive/warp drive in their most optimal route.

My drive is, in some short-range cases, instantaneous. 10 trillion km divided by 0 = OH SHI--

[-Bretonia-]

You're missing the point. Space-folding technology requires no motion whatsoever for the ship in question; instead of travelling to the destination, it simply brings the destination closer. It has no velocity. People still call it a form of faster-than-light technology, however, because it gives the appearance of travelling faster than light.

Most FTL systems do not require a ship to accelerate to light speed or beyond, they simply shorten the distance through some means. Some do not require the ship to move at all. They are 'apparent' FTL.

[Kanuckistan]

As I understand it, real quantum entanglement does not circumvent relativity and is not in fact faster-than-light.

That's about the sum of it, although iirc folks've been using QE here sense befor that was known, and it's use as FTL comm not debunked.

Mind, it doesn't really matter - this is sci-fi, afterall. Bending the way things work is what we do.

But it is another reason why I use CTE - it's entirly unrelated to QE, the term entanglement only being used because it's a handy and recognised descriptor that does a good job of covering it's function, even if we do have the occasional misunderstanding.

And because entanglement just sounds neat.

So, if you want to be a jerk, you can just ignore FTLi on that technicality... I tried to for a while

Well, yes, but but that'd be rude - and running a tangent, I generally abide by FTLi vs Drives anyway, unless it's depicted as intentionally limited-aspect by the player, in which case I might ignore it(or pretend ICly that it limits me so as to feed false information).

No reason to penalise the player just because they're not very good at spinning technobabble.


(tho, yeah, anything that gets you to your destination befor light is FTL - it's really just a catch-all term)

[-Raysia-]

You're missing the point. Space-folding technology requires no motion whatsoever for the ship in question; instead of travelling to the destination, it simply brings the destination closer. It has no velocity. People still call it a form of faster-than-light technology, however, because it gives the appearance of travelling faster than light.

Most FTL systems do not require a ship to accelerate to light speed or beyond, they simply shorten the distance through some means. Some do not require the ship to move at all. They are 'apparent' FTL.

That's -exactly- what I'm talking about. I suppose you could say it "appears" to be faster than light, but by technicality it is not actually faster than light, for the reasons stated above.

Apparently, a magician makes something appear out of thin air, but it was always there in the first place. Appearances are not science ....unless you're talking about wind chill factor... ^_^

[Kanuckistan]

That's -exactly- what I'm talking about. I suppose you could say it "appears" to be faster than light, but by technicality it is not actually faster than light, for the reasons stated above.

Apparently, a magician makes something appear out of thin air, but it was always there in the first place. Appearances are not science ....unless you're talking about wind chill factor... ^_^

Would you rather call it an ABL Drive? Arrives Before Light?

[-Raysia-]

That's -exactly- what I'm talking about. I suppose you could say it "appears" to be faster than light, but by technicality it is not actually faster than light, for the reasons stated above.

Apparently, a magician makes something appear out of thin air, but it was always there in the first place. Appearances are not science ....unless you're talking about wind chill factor... ^_^

Would you rather call it an ABL Drive? Arrives Before Light?

velocity is a very Newtonian concept... If you're going to use it, then you have to factor in a bunch of kinetics, and time, and space, etc etc... If you try to classify an instant trip into newtonian physics, your calculator explodes. Try it!

But, of course, I see the point with the observer's viewpoint. If you're watching through a high-power telescope, and the object moves to a new location in the same viewing arc, then you will see two images of the same object for a brief moment.

[Hyperspatial Travel]

What my argument was, is that I can't call my interstellar drive "FTL" because the word "faster" is an indication of relative velocity... change in position, divided by time... really big number, divided by zero. dividing by zero makes the velocity undefined... it has no velocity.... so calling it "faster" than light is technically incorrect.

We do have a theory of limits to deal with possible divisions of zero, CC, gorram it.

And dealing with an earlier argument, I was under the impression that the Babylon Commonwealth was joining IRON solely to fuck with it under the auspices of membership, nothing more.

[-Raysia-]

HT: I'm an engineering student, I know calculus. But the limit does not apply here. If you were to graph the limit of distance over time as time goes to zero, it would approach infinity, until exploding into undefinity... At this point, you would change locations without feeling -any- effects of inertia or any other Newtonian forces. Velocity becomes a non-factor.

You can take the derivative of the formula and get acceleration... Same issue... You could take the second derivative and get the jerk function? Still doesn't apply. There is no acceleration, no velocity, no Newtonian inertial effects whatsoever.

Proof: acceleration = change in speed over time elapsed => 0 divided by 0

even worse!

[Red Talons]

What my argument was, is that I can't call my interstellar drive "FTL" because the word "faster" is an indication of relative velocity... change in position, divided by time... really big number, divided by zero. dividing by zero makes the velocity undefined... it has no velocity.... so calling it "faster" than light is technically incorrect.

We do have a theory of limits to deal with possible divisions of zero, CC, gorram it.

And dealing with an earlier argument, I was under the impression that the Babylon Commonwealth was joining IRON solely to fuck with it under the auspices of membership, nothing more.

I was, but then the original plan sorta fell through so i decided to just run it as a nation as an independent nation instead of a puppet government backed by this one, as was the original plan.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

To throw another technicality into the whole FTLi thing, there's Warhammer 40k-style 'warp' travel.

From what I gather, warp travel is feasible because, among other things' the warp 'wants' people to use it. Further, it's not accessed with technology, but rather via the psychic powers of astropaths (although the Tau use a sort of hyperdrive thingy to access it, I think). It obeys no physical laws, and seems to be able to spontaneously manifest itself in inconvenient ways.

So basically, a technological FTLi would have no effect on astropathic warp navigation. Of course, there are plenty of OTHER ways to screw with warp travel. A Tyranid hive-fleet, for instance

Or just another astropath, if you don't feel like carting around a billion slavering aliens. AS well as 'natural' (for the warp) phenomena...

[EternalNight]

To throw another technicality into the whole FTLi thing, there's Warhammer 40k-style 'warp' travel.

From what I gather, warp travel is feasible because, among other things' the warp 'wants' people to use it. Further, it's not accessed with technology, but rather via the psychic powers of astropaths (although the Tau use a sort of hyperdrive thingy to access it, I think). It obeys no physical laws, and seems to be able to spontaneously manifest itself in inconvenient ways.

So basically, a technological FTLi would have no effect on astropathic warp navigation. Of course, there are plenty of OTHER ways to screw with warp travel. A Tyranid hive-fleet, for instance

Or just another astropath, if you don't feel like carting around a billion slavering aliens. AS well as 'natural' (for the warp) phenomena...

WH40K ships actually use technological based drives to enter the Warp, the Astropaths are used for navigation.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I could've sworn it was the astropaths who made the entrance to the Warp. I must be misremembering.

[EternalNight]

I could've sworn it was the astropaths who made the entrance to the Warp. I must be misremembering.

Sometimes however, the Warp makes entrances to the Astropaths though...

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I could've sworn it was the astropaths who made the entrance to the Warp. I must be misremembering.

Sometimes however, the Warp makes entrances to the Astropaths though...

With hilariously messy results

[EternalNight]

I could've sworn it was the astropaths who made the entrance to the Warp. I must be misremembering.

Sometimes however, the Warp makes entrances to the Astropaths though...

With hilariously messy results

If the Astropath is lucky...

Praise the C'Tan

[Feazanthia]

On another note...

Working on my fleet reformat. Want to know what you guys think.

My ships are supposed to be built around several concepts: long-range specialization, guided weapons saturation, and network centric warfare. The general idea I originally had was similar to the modern carrier group, but that started to drift away when I began using my Majiirian and Arelian Defender designs more, and when I stopped using star fighters.

So, I wanna get back to basics so-to-speak. I'm starting to feel I have too many specialized designs, and too many of my ships that are built to perform one role are bloating my OrBats. So I'm going to cut my number of active designs while beefing up the remaining ones. Effectively, this will drastically reduce the number of active ships in my navy while increasing the survivability and firepower of each one dramatically.

Additionally, I plan to improve upon my Tactical Network (TacNet, similar to what others call a Battlenet or Fleetmind) and Remote Weapons Systems projects. My frigates will be reduce to two hull types - the Bloodhound escort frigate (FFE) and the Palintone battle frigate (FFB). Both will drop their crew compliments completely, instead relying on the establishment of the TacNet and their own internal computer systems. This should increase their efficiency, as well as allowing me to deploy a larger screen of them. The Defiance line of destroyers will be done away with completely, as will most variants of the Arbiter cruiser. As much as I like the idea of someone getting too close and being ripped apart by an unrelenting hail of Defiance autocannons, it's simply not practical when the big guns on the larger warships could probably do the job just as well.

The Arbiter will be reduced to two loadouts - one designed for independent action fitting a cruiser hull designation and one designed for fleet support. The Arbiter's greatest strength has been its modular ability, and the capacity to tailor its loadout to mission-specific parameters. It's time the cruisers began fulfilling their purpose. They will be supplemented by my new Thanaar patrol carriers, which are adept at commerce patrol but suffer in straight combat.

As for capital ships, the Arelian Defender line will be regulated to defensive duties and phased out of fleet operations. It no longer is able to match the larger Majiirian ton-for-ton in offensive punch, and its twenty-one heavy autocannons are best used for area denial and making enemy pilots' lives utter hell. The Praetor design is two RL years old, and based off of an even older Homeworld: PDS design document. It's time to phase it out completely. Instead, the Praetor's combat role will be split between the third update of the Majiirian and the Empress mobile yard. With the greater abundance of the Bloodhound FFE, I'm not sure the usefulness of the Kite series combat drone. As it was, it was only a small disposal tetrahedral hull designed for maximum maneuverability in three dimensions, armed with only a single fusion-pumped laser. Likewise the Raptor, as without carrier support the resources needed to deploy sublight gunships might be better used deploying additional frigates.

The Majiirian will become the heart of the battle group. Each battleship will be accompanied by its own flotilla of frigates and occasionally cruisers. The rest of the fleet will serve to supplement the Majiirian's combat systems; the Bloodhounds augment its point defense, the Palintones augment its primary cannons, and the Arbiters will augment its cannons and guided weapon systems. The Majiirian will simultaneously be the fleet's greatest strength and greatest weakness. TacNets will be maintained via Majiirians, so without them the fleet will generally have little choice but to retreat. However, I plan to boost the armor and shield systems on the Majiirian along with its automation, with a crew of about a dozen all linked into the ship via neural implants. In terms of my technology, the only difference between a military-grade Artificial Intelligence and a human brain is that an AI requires internal infrastructure of great size, and a human brain's processing power is bogged down by the "lower brain" functions. Therefore, the AIs and ship's commanding officer handle the complex stuff in tandem while the crew manage the mundane tasks such as power allocation, remote-operated repair drones, TacNet upkeep, etc. Majiirians will also launch combat drones if I decide to keep them.

Ground combat doctrine is still being worked on, as I'm looking for a way to supplant most armored troops with non-humanoid automatons. Not entirely, mind you. I spent way too much time on the Shamshir armor to have never used it in combat

At the end of the day, this should leave me with a much smaller, much easier to wield military more in-keeping with the ICly small population I want to have. I'm looking at 100-150 Majiirians, 300-400 cruisers and patrol carriers, and around 1000 various frigates at the command of the KFEF.

So. Am I nuts?

[Feazanthia]

On the topic of Red Talon's puppet, I invoke Allemande's Law of Safe Puppeteering.

If multiple puppets belonging to the same player fight side by side in the same war, the sum total of all resources committed and all power employed by the puppets collectively may not exceed the resources and power available to any one of them individually.