Argument Thread OOC Future Tech Only

[Auman]

"Doing semaphor"? What do Indians from Florida have to do with anything?!?

(It's semaphore.)

Shit. Fail on my part. Serves me right for writing a joke when I wasn't fully aware.

Bryn: I brought the coffee.

You, sir, are here-by granted clearance to enter the Janitorial Command Closet.

[Bryn Shander]

You know, maybe it's just me, but hiring mercenaries to fight on your side in a war when said mercenary's puppet just joined your alliance seems an awful lot like the worst form of puppet wanking.

[The Cosmic Balance]

To me, it depends on how the puppet is handled. The rule I've always used is that if ever I have multiple puppets on the same side in a war, I'll assume their total resources available to support the war effort cannot exceed the resources available to the largest single one of them.

I can't imagine having to apply this rule in my present FT RP's, but I could easily end up doing it in my present MT RP's (there are some puppets whose invasion would trigger a response from other puppets). Were that to happen, I would just restrict myself to a combined force no greater than what the largest puppet could field - but I would certainly combine forces to give the feel of an allied coalition (half of Nation A's forces and half of Nation B's, for instance).

[Naggeroth]

You know, maybe it's just me, but hiring mercenaries to fight on your side in a war when said mercenary's puppet just joined your alliance seems an awful lot like the worst form of puppet wanking.

You could hire him to you know. We didn't sign an exclusive contract. And even if we did he has a rather large number of forces who don't work for his main group anymore.

[Red Talons]

While i did hire out to IRON, and my puppet is part of IRON, i will never have them involved in the same thread.... with the way this whole thing is playing out, its really hard to avoid having both my main and my puppet getting swept up in it. If i had my puppet join Hermes, or GCP, it would have ended in a much more disagreeable position for me of having to possibly fight myself.... which is, lets face it, not a whole lot of fun to write, and tends to lack qualities that a normal combat RP would have.

As it stands, if my puppet gets invaded, then its up to one of the IRON members to assist directly, i wont be doubling up in any threads.... it taxes my writing skill to make posts for one at a time in different threads, i dont want to have to write twice as much posting for two nations, especially if it'll just be ignored as god-modding anyway...

I'm here to have fun, not be the cause of an OOC drama-pile. ^^; like i said, i'm in a precarious position, but one that given the circumstances, couldn't really be avoided

[Bryn Shander]

Couldn't be avoided my ass. Your mercenaries are nomads. They don't have to be involved any more than they have to be in the north.

[Auman]

When I had a puppet, I used it in a manner in which it would never, ever, conflict with or even have any business regarding my primary nation.

[-Raysia-]

When I had a puppet, I used it in a manner in which it would never, ever, conflict with or even have any business regarding my primary nation.

which is funny, because in real life that is exactly what a puppet nation is ^_^

Puppet (adjective): designating or of a state or nation that is ostensibly independent but is actually controlled by another

hehe

[Kanuckistan]

Kanuckistan does not have an army worth mentioning - it's mainly there to support the militia in the event on invasion, provide marine compliments for ships, etc. It's defencive - offence-wise, the ships go out and kill things.

My solution to dealing with having to invade a planet is simple: "Surrender peacefully and don't give me too much trouble, and I'll protect you from my allies."

It, uh, actually worked surprisingly well, the one time I had cause to try it.

Failing that, close-space-support and expanding the army, while making heavy use of my spy agencies, and probably bribery, depending on the culture. It's really a job I expect I'd be bad at, barring luck with the PR and spy angle, but that's actually intended - you can't be good at everything.


As for kill ratios, well, my supercaps number 10, with 32 frigates and an undefined number of paramilitary of greatly varied capability. I generally deploy a single Superfortress or Battleplate to a fleet battle, and they, well, do a great job earning their keep. But I think that's more to do with design and tactics than raw power - and I typically won't stand and fight unless it's from a position of strength from which I can maneuver.

Well, Bryn... I'm just assuming your FTLi blocks subspace communications as well...

Anyway, I guess Im going to have to use my work-around. I already have massive observatories, telescopes etc, all around my territory, tracking all sorts of objects and receiving transmissions. So far almost all my subspace communications have taken place via these observatories.

As my ships do not have warp drives or hyperdrives or anything like that, I'd really have no good reason to have transmitters mounted on the ships... But I suppose my massive observatories could act as the main subspace relays...

As for sensors... I think Ill limit subspace scanning to those observatories as well... No sense having communications there if I can't have sensors

If you want limited FTL comms that'll always work, my Contextual Thermal Entanglement(Not Quantum!) cannot be blocked, operating via contextually unified thermal states. It is, however, very much descriptive in the entanglement bit, being fixed point-to-point between nodes - no dialing another number.

If you import them, it would allow you to have open comms in where you want them, without upsetting the net ballance of your tech. If you then want to take those comms out for RP purposes, well, that's what Conveniently Inconvenient Malfunctions and Suspiciously Specific Battle Damage is for.


Listening in on general comms and the like is as easy as maintaining an outpost somewhere with public access to said comms - Sol System is an easy answer - and use your tube system or a CTE relay to communicate with the outpost. Or, ya know, import subspace equipment - my own isn't exactly the best, however, tho I do have fantastic gravitic sensors! [/tangent]


Tho you're probably thinking along completely different lines and I've taken your measure in m/sec² when you're working in ft/lbs.

I also hear that handwavium is in limited supply at the moment. But we've had all kinds of things pop up in the past that have generally been laughed out of the room, like Neutronium, for example...

I actually use a neutronium superfluid(which tends to decay into a very nasty neutron rad pulse if not contained under lots of pressure) as a super-dense fuel mass(anything works, but high density = smaller fuel bunkers = less volume to armour/etc.) for my pulsed singularity Hawking reactors. It also sees other, limited, specialist uses - ultra-thin Neutronium Laminate as a passive radiation shield(see: stopping very nasty neutron rad pulses), for example, but the way it's employed as mono/dual-neutron layers in a nuclear-bond SAPL matrix makes the term less than entirly accurate and more of a generic phrase.

Nah, I just handwave matter straight to energy. But don't let that stop your foot-in-mouth syndrome.

Whatever you say, buddy. The simple fact of the matter is that using AM to power anything is about as stupid as building a race car out of magnesium. It is retarded no matter how you try to spin it and will end up getting you killed in a massive fire.

Having conversion reactors, even brute-force antimatter production is fairly cheap, and so, once micro-encapsulated for passive, innate containment, it's found it's way into boosting cheaper munitions - even bullets.

It's also not nearly as powerful as some give it credit - a kilogram, reacting with a like mass of matter, net's at most ~179'751 terajoules, or 43 megatons TNTe.

The loads I'll put in a bullet typically peak in the sub-microgram range, a microgram yielding ~43 kilograms TNTe, if I got the math right. You might actually see this, or maybe more, in a cheap smart-grenade, but the average is but a fraction that strength.

Of course, while antimatter-enhanced munitions are popular with the Kanuckistani Adventurers' Guild(because it's a cheap, powerful bang and infinitely scalable. Conversion bombs aren't exactly expensive, you they can't compare, and ), even KAGers won't like you very much if you insist on carrying too much of it around them, and quantities are, in general, tightly restricted.



Using it as ship munitions, however, is insane, especially if you expect to fight within an enemy ship's point-defence envelope - nothing sucks more than the other guy popping your own antimatter warheads with pulse-lasers as they leave your shield arcs, turning your own weapons against you. Or, if the angle is right and your shields are down, while they're transiting the launch tubes themselves.

Pulsed Singularity Conversion Bombs are so much safer, if rather more expensive. It also doubles as a power source for the missile and the neutronium superfluid fuel allows it to be very compact - an anticapitalship dual-purpose laser-head sub-munition(aka an Independent Attack Munition, or IAV) may be smaller than your fist, but easily mass in at several metric tons.

For ultra-high-end applications, like powering my handful of supercapitals' peak needs, I use what is essentially a small, artificial event horizon("Celestial Incurser Lens"), to generate 'free' energy... which produces negative mass as a(n OOCly unintended) by-product, thus squaring things with thermodynamics, and providing me with a waste product I'm still not sure what to do with.




...and I'm just noticing the dates I'm replying to. *facepalm* ...and realised it's past 5am. *facepalm* ...and now it's 6:40am. When am I going to learn? This is what happens when I start typing responses to a thread befor I finish reading it.

[Auman]

However, when it comes to actually playing the game... If you have a puppet nation, it really should not be used in close collaboration with your main.

[-Raysia-]

However, when it comes to actually playing the game... If you have a puppet nation, it really should not be used in close collaboration with your main.

That depends on if you go by the NS definition of a puppet, or the RL international politics definition of a puppet... personally, I've been opposed to the name 'puppet' as used by NS ever since I first heard it popularized...


But, leaving that alone...
If you have a puppet nation, chances are it's on a different tech-base/reality than your main nation... either that or it's a related spin-off... otherwise... why would anyone be like that? Being your own ally? Laaame...

[Bryn Shander]

If you want limited FTL comms that'll always work, my Contextual Thermal Entanglement(Not Quantum!) cannot be blocked, operating via contextually unified thermal states. It is, however, very much descriptive in the entanglement bit, being fixed point-to-point between nodes - no dialing another number.

Does the communication transmit at a speed greater than c? If the answer is yes, FTLi blocks it.

Using it as ship munitions, however, is insane, especially if you expect to fight within an enemy ship's point-defence envelope - nothing sucks more than the other guy popping your own antimatter warheads with pulse-lasers as they leave your shield arcs, turning your own weapons against you. Or, if the angle is right and your shields are down, while they're transiting the launch tubes themselves.

I did exactly that to TFU just before the transition to the new forums, actually. The moron tried to fire a bunch of ~2 gigaton AM torpedoes at my cruiser while my cruiser was spraying his shields with the PD guns. Needless to say they blew up in his face his opinion be damned.

[Kanuckistan]

Does the communication transmit at a speed greater than c? If the answer is yes, FTLi blocks it.

Because you say so?

Because I say otherwise.

That's most of the point of using not only a form of entanglement, but my own proprietary kind(well, that and fluff/flavour, and I just like it; it's neat) - FTLi stopping drives is one thing, a blank cheque to block all FTL comms is quite another, just as it's not a blank cheque to demand any ship with, say, a hyperspace tap power source be rendered powerless.

Using my own - entirly original - tech for FTL comms allows me to naturally and logically explore the applications and implications of a technology on my nation, it's technologies and it's society, without worrying that someone will create a magic off button(for starters, I use CTE in alot of internal datalinks, even within electronics, to connect all teleoperated Avatars, heck, even in some cybernetics' neuro-architecture, in heat-sinks, and in alot of lower-end wireless power transmission - it's in everything), just as noone worries about someone discovering a magic off button when they design something that uses electricity iRL(and EMP is not comparable - you can easily block that).

In specific cases, well, like I said, that's what Conveniently Inconvenient Malfunctions and Suspiciously Specific Battle Damage are for. Side-step the issue completely.


Besides, if I wanted to get technical(mostly because I enjoy it), it doesn't actually transmit anything. The thermal state of the two entangled nodes is a single unified variable in the proverbial code of reality(with a specific heat equal to that of the two nodes combined, pre-entanglement) - mechanics-wise, it's a cheat(hence one of the reasons I called it entanglement), and the only way to block it would necessitate specifically suspending the thermal state of all matter within the affected volume. I suppose another way of looking at it in analog might be open jumpgate VS opening a new jumpgate VS FTLi - a physicly established, open connection can generally be expected to resist FTLi.



Not that I really see how you'd gain much - a loss of comms declares attack, and anyone can examine the battle afterwards via lightspeed exploit, pick up STL comms, etc. at their leisure. There is some advantage, and I can see how it might be an interesting mechanic, but nothing that compares to the +Balance VS Godmod that justifies all-purpose blanket-effective FTLi.

[Auman]

We in Hermes generally operate under the honor system. That meaning, FTLi is a vague technology and is stupid in its own right. It's deemed necessary because it's the only way of enforcing reality long enough to fight a battle that isn't entirely gay. I'd say the best way to counter FTLi would be to jump ships in outside of its influence and move in the slow way, which shouldn't be that slow considering most, if not all, of us have STL engines that are ridiculously fast.

My fleets broadcast a faster than light IFF. If the transponder signal is cut off, I jump the ships in outside of the FTLi and advance on the source. Meaning, instead of trying a techno babble solution to handle a pseudo science, I use military protocol and tactics to fight my way out of an ambush. Why it's so god damned difficult for others to do, especially when they're waving around their military ultra-dong in this thread and others, I just don't fucking know.

[Red Talons]

Couldn't be avoided my ass. Your mercenaries are nomads. They don't have to be involved any more than they have to be in the north.

your just mad i didn't join Hermes.

And no it couldn't. which is why as i stated before if you had been paying attention, even though they may be working with the same alliance, they will never interact or be in the same thread together. Seeing as the general use of puppet wanking is to artificially inflate an alliance's numbers, i don't think this is really an issue seeing as my puppet just broke 200 million and everyone else involved is in the multi billions...

Now, when you combine the aspect of the size of the puppet to the fact that they will never be interacting with my main nation, i dont see exactly what has everyone's panties in a twist about this....

[Allemande]

If you have a puppet nation, chances are it's on a different tech-base/reality than your main nation... either that or it's a related spin-off... otherwise... why would anyone be like that? Being your own ally? Laaame...

I can think of several reasons why it might be that way in MT. In FT, it's harder to come up with justification for it.

To debate the use of puppets in MT, we should use the "Argument Thread OOC Modern Tech Only" thread...

[The Cosmic Balance]

If you want limited FTL comms that'll always work, my Contextual Thermal Entanglement(Not Quantum!) cannot be blocked, operating via contextually unified thermal states. It is, however, very much descriptive in the entanglement bit, being fixed point-to-point between nodes - no dialing another number.

Does the communication transmit at a speed greater than c? If the answer is yes, FTLi blocks it.

Oh, let's not get into this.

The almighty stops-everything FTLi is something I categorically reject right here and now. I can give you a million reasons why I do, but in the meantime, let me just ask: If telepaths communicate FTL (and most people would say that telepathy works that way), are you saying that your magical FTLi somehow makes telepathy impossible within a gajillion kilometers of the device as soon as you switch it on?

'Cause I ain't buyin' it.

Besides, if I wanted to get technical(mostly because I enjoy it), it doesn't actually transmit anything. The thermal state of the two entangled nodes is a single unified variable in the proverbial code of reality(with a specific heat equal to that of the two nodes combined, pre-entanglement) - mechanics-wise, it's a cheat(hence one of the reasons I called it entanglement), and the only way to block it would necessitate specifically suspending the thermal state of all matter within the affected volume. I suppose another way of looking at it in analog might be open jumpgate VS opening a new jumpgate VS FTLi - a physicly established, open connection can generally be expected to resist FTLi.

Well, this gets to the heart of the problem: As Bryn has described FTLi, as soon as you turn it on, it breaks pretty much every law of physics there is within its operating radius, from quantum mechanics to general relativity. As far as I'm concerned, that means that as soon as you turn it on, the known universe ceases to function in any fashion whatsoever within its operating radius - which is patently absurd.

There's no way you can tell me that having at device that suddenly turns the universe Einstein and Heisenberg described in their theories into a universe that exactly fits Newton's laws and his alone within its zone of effect isn't a technowank of cosmic proportions, however necessary it may be from a storytelling perspective.

[Auman]

Overlord Navarrone rocks back and forth, gently, in his rocking chair. He removes a wad of tobacco and begins to stuff his pipe. Lighting the pipe with a wooden match, he takes several, mouthy, puffs to get 'er burning.

'I remember in the old days, the all or nothin' days, when we didn't have FTLi. In the old days, the glory days, the days where all a man had to keep himself from getting shot to death if a GE gang bang was a gun and some armor... In the old days. After awhile it was good, but after awhile it turned into a big pile of SHIT!' Navarrone licked his lips sloppily, holding the pipe loosely in his fist.

'Then some wise sage decided to utilize FTLi. The gang bangs ended as all men realized that a gentleman's agreement was needed to help wars end in a way that didn't involve entire societies being wiped out by the ignore cannons. Then, the old days weren't so bad. But I'll tell y'all right now, I can feel it in my bones.' Navarrone stopped a'rockin'.

'Shit storm's a'brewin'.'

[Auman]

viewtopic.php?ns=1&f=5&t=15126

I started this thread to specifically address the FTLi debate. We're going to try and achieve some sort of consensus on what the fuck it is and how the hell it works. Because I've never seen any definitive source on what you guys use to stop faster than light travel, and to develop drive specific FTLi, one needs to categorize and detail all forms of FTLi.

[Neo-Mekanta]

My solution to dealing with having to invade a planet is simple: "Surrender peacefully and don't give me too much trouble, and I'll protect you from my allies."

It, uh, actually worked surprisingly well, the one time I had cause to try it.

It helps that you're allied with some grade-A nutcases.

"I'll protect you from my allies" gets a lot more effective when some of your allies like popping into star systems and glassing everything in sight for shits and giggles.

[Allemande]

A post addressing the question of why one might have puppets that are allies of one another in MT has been created in the appropriate thread. Your comments are welcome.

[Bryn Shander]

Couldn't be avoided my ass. Your mercenaries are nomads. They don't have to be involved any more than they have to be in the north.

your just mad i didn't join Hermes.

And no it couldn't. which is why as i stated before if you had been paying attention, even though they may be working with the same alliance, they will never interact or be in the same thread together. Seeing as the general use of puppet wanking is to artificially inflate an alliance's numbers, i don't think this is really an issue seeing as my puppet just broke 200 million and everyone else involved is in the multi billions...

Now, when you combine the aspect of the size of the puppet to the fact that they will never be interacting with my main nation, i dont see exactly what has everyone's panties in a twist about this....

Your puppet was never under consideration for membership anyway. We in Hermes have standards and do things IC instead of letting anyone just post a line or two in an open recruiting thread to join. We interact with nations IC before membership is even considered, and even then we have to come to you about membership. So no, I don't give a flying fuck that your puppet didn't join Hermes.

The issue here is that you're violating the unwritten rules of NS. Puppetwanking is puppetwanking regardless of if you intend to have the two nations interact directly. Having puppets fight for the sake of story is one thing, but they sure as hell can't be friends. Having a puppet in an alliance and having your main take jobs from that alliance is simply bad form.

[-Raysia-]

Haha, I've pretty much given up the fight against the Hermes FTLi... It's ridiculous, but apparently necessary.

I'm weird because:
a) My ships do not travel faster than light, they basically just teleport.
b) I don't have any sort of Inertial Dampeners / superpowerful engine that works on Newtonian physics.
c) I do have a drive that works -similarly- to my fold drive that can give me great sublight speeds if needed.

Because of these, I've decided that the Hermes FTLi will prohibit all of my teleportation, translocation, or anything resembling FTL. I've also decided that I will retain the zero-acceleration feature, giving my ships at least the power to remain competitive without being incapacitated.

My communications are handled via message pods teleported between systems... Naturally, I have no interstellar communications with an FTLi prohibited.


I did, earlier in this thread, protest the idea if a blanket FTLi... But, screw it.

[Naggeroth]

Please Note: I am posting this here in response to Bryn Shander's Post here. This thread seemed the most appropriate public place to put it were Bryn is likely to see it.

Naggeroth are terrible roleplayers and terrible players in general.

I haven't had any major ooc issues with any player in the last two years or more. In every RP I've been in since Arizona Nova's First War of Expansion there has always been some level of planning beforehand simply to make sure there would be no arguments down the line. I cannot even remember the last time I got into an argument because of actions I performed while in a role-play with another player and the worst comment I've gotten in quite some time is I am slow to update.

You on the other hand have grown quite a bit of infamy in almost all the circles you tread. The thing is there are a great number of people who find your manner and style at the very least distasteful. However I will not speak for others and nor will I allow this post to become clouded by tasteless and boring flames, I'll let what evidence I provide act as a judge.

Lets start the ball rolling with a rather innocuous crime; when you role-play you tend to attempt to force upon a player situations in which they cannot win without calling you on it ooc. I'm referring situations were you go from orbit to within 50km in a single post, giving the player who owned the planet no chance to respond to what his Navy would do. How about ignoring a ships weapon fire because in your nations ship classes a frigate cannot hope to take a cruiser despite the possibility this may not be the case in another's nation. Or there is you conquering another nation due to actions of a rouge Fleet Commander, seemingly forcing the treaty on him. Now I may be mistaken and that one may have been pre-planned (though with MidwesternAmercia's objections I doubt it) but the other two were not.

But enough of that. I have little time and more to comment on. Like how you constantly flame instead of providing evidence. Above is a perfect example. You don't explain why I am a bad player. You merely state that I am and allow anyone to come past to accept it. Even now despite my irritation I've kept a somewhat civil tongue. If someone or something irritates you it definitely cannot be said as the same. You were even banned for flaming in moderation.

And finally there are the admitted attempts at driving people off NationStates. You (and the rest of Hermes) admitted to plenty of people your intent was to Drive The Fedral Union off Nationstates. You couldn't be contented with merely ignoring him but instead had to make it a vendetta, which is carried on even now you 'ignore' him as you attempt to discredit him and get other players who have no hard feelings with Rob to ignore him. Now Rob doesn't have a spotless history but attempting to drive him off nationstates is a dickmove no matter what.

Now. I'm not going to argue over the contents. All I've done is link to posts and commented on things you admit to and continue to act on. If you want to flame email me, send me a telegram or unblock me on MSN, don't do it here. If you wish to rebut me here post proof of my deficiencies as a Roleplayer. When and If you do we'll who is a terrible role-player and terrible player in general.

[-Bretonia-]

I'm not entirely sure that this thread, nor the "How Powerful..." thread for that matter, are the best places for you to be airing your dirty laundry, guys.