Argument Thread OOC Future Tech Only

[Yes Im Biop]

The ADvice thread helps. But yeah. This one is useless

Oh no, not by a long shot. Just scroll way back to some of the earlier posts,...

Im scared i havent been there in a while.

AS FOR YOU PEOPLE!

I need help with armors damnit.

[Senestrum]

Star Wars can smash the entire starfleet galaxy almost effortlessly. After all, the death star superlaser had an energy of at least 10³⁹ joules. Dodonna stated that the death star "carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet". He does not, however, state which starfleet he was talking about. I would assert that he is, in fact, talking about the rebel starfleet, which at that point is seen to consist of a couple dozen fighters. Due to the incredible overkill of the death star superlaser (mass-scattering a terrestrial planet requires ~2.4 x 10³² joules), this means that individual starfighters have orders of magnitude more firepower than is required to destroy a planet. This also means that imperial ships can withstand firepower of this magnitude, since we see them being fired upon by starfighters several times in the movies.

You may take issue with the fact that I assumed he was talking about the rebel starfeet. However, that doesn't help you much. Han Solo, upon seeing the Alderan debris field, states that "It'd take a thousand ships" to destroy Alderan. Due to the hilarious overkill, this still leaves Star Wars with ships capable of dishing out and receiving planet-destroying energies.

Based off of that, I am forced to conclude that the Star Trek universe gets its shit utterly ruined.

Except that nothing shown bears anything out aside from the firepower of the Death Star's superlaser. Characters can be wrong, and they can exaggerate in their dialogue, but what is shown speaks for itself in both cases. Considering that the Eclipse-class SSD's continent-cracking superlaser is considered to be an extremely powerful weapon, second only to the Death Star's own superlaser, and requires a 17.5 km ship to house it, these statements can safely be dismissed as hyperbole and exaggeration in light of the actual specifications provided and actions demonstrated.

There's nothing showing that they're wrong, either, and it's at least as consistent as any other firepower scaling. Furthermore, Dodonna was A: giving a military briefing (and thus could be expected to know what he's talking about), and B: even if it was the imperial starfleet you still end up with planet-cracking ships unless you go for fleet numbers in the tens of millions.

I am a movie purist.

Also, that was mostly to show my contempt for this whole argument. Seriously, fuck ST vs SW, it was overdone as fuck before most people had computers and everything that is possible to be argued has already been argued. Nobody is going to change anybody else's mind, and nobody is going to make any original points. In the meantime, it is just aggravating people and shitting up this thread.

[Thrashia]

Except that nothing shown bears anything out aside from the firepower of the Death Star's superlaser. Characters can be wrong, and they can exaggerate in their dialogue, but what is shown speaks for itself in both cases. Considering that the Eclipse-class SSD's continent-cracking superlaser is considered to be an extremely powerful weapon, second only to the Death Star's own superlaser, and requires a 17.5 km ship to house it, these statements can safely be dismissed as hyperbole and exaggeration in light of the actual specifications provided and actions demonstrated.

One other consideration...

[Tahar Joblis]

Oh, right, someone had actual questions.

Ok..Not sure what im gettign into but seeing as how Both series/movies are older than dirt. Im Throwign a new Bone.


What would the best armor be to stop Mass accelerated rounds? Hyper sonic shot that is...o the size of a pencil eraser.

At very high velocities and low masses, you probably want something like a whipple shield - a thinner outer layer spaced some distance from the inner layers. High hypersonic speeds mean very violent interactions. The wiki article explains some of how that works.

The outer layer is essentially ablative - the part of it that got hit, and the projectile, hopefully, mutually vaporize, and since the high-temperature plasma that used to be the projectile and a section of the outer shielding have time to disperse a bit, the energy gets spread out a lot more by the time it hits the next layer. The mass of the outer spaced layer needs to increase as the mass of the projectile increases, but the spacing doesn't need to increase as much.

[Senestrum]

I believe he is talking about infantry armor.

[Yes Im Biop]

I believe he is talking about infantry armor.

Yes, Thanks. I DOnt have any Space destroyers or whatever NS Calls em yet.

[Thrashia]

Also, Senestrum, in regards to the quote about the Death Star's power, they were speaking about the Imperial Navy, not the Rebel Alliance.

[Tahar Joblis]

I believe he is talking about infantry armor.

Still holds, really. Unless you're going into the realm of very tough unobtainium, it's going to involve layers.

Now, the spacing could be stuffed with something fairly lightweight, but you're not going to be able to afford a solid layer that would stop it all the way. Spacing your armor is what's going to get you the most mileage out of stopping a hypersonic projectile. It's going to be bulky... like a space suit, which is what IRL is designed to cope as best as possible with hypersonic projectiles.

That's if you want to stay within the confines of RL engineering, but the principle holds pretty well in general. You could go for triple-layer unobtanium.

Outer layer is a "hard" layer that will bounce low-velocity bullets and disrupt higher-velocity projectiles. Middle layer is a thick low-density material; it's designed to hold the outer layer more or less in place without contributing to the mass of the armor much. A high heat of vaporization relative to mass would be nice, so it absorbs some more of the energy. Innermost layer is strong but on the ductile side, to absorb energy. Then inside that you have a layer of insulation so the user doesn't get cooked.

[Yes Im Biop]

I believe he is talking about infantry armor.

Still holds, really. Unless you're going into the realm of very tough unobtainium, it's going to involve layers.

Now, the spacing could be stuffed with something fairly lightweight, but you're not going to be able to afford a solid layer that would stop it all the way. Spacing your armor is what's going to get you the most mileage out of stopping a hypersonic projectile. It's going to be bulky... like a space suit, which is what IRL is designed to cope as best as possible with hypersonic projectiles.

That's if you want to stay within the confines of RL engineering, but the principle holds pretty well in general. You could go for triple-layer unobtanium.

Outer layer is a "hard" layer that will bounce low-velocity bullets and disrupt higher-velocity projectiles. Middle layer is a thick low-density material; it's designed to hold the outer layer more or less in place without contributing to the mass of the armor much. A high heat of vaporization relative to mass would be nice, so it absorbs some more of the energy. Innermost layer is strong but on the ductile side, to absorb energy. Then inside that you have a layer of insulation so the user doesn't get cooked.

So 2050 odd tech would eqquate to...Tungsten, Aero Gell, and ...Rubber?

[Ularn]

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that in a war between the Star Wars Empire and Star Trek Borg, the winner would be the NationStates Ularn Interstellar Federation, since we can hit our targets from more than ten metres away!

[The 44th Indp Legion]

I clearly recall the borg owning some serious shit from quite a long ways away back when it was on dutch tv.
But in fairness, the truth of most really do-and/or-die wars is that a third/fourth/umptieth party uninvolved will at some point sweep in and kick everyone's arse, potentially involving magic and/or references to dark lords and evil conspiracies or whatever.

[Tahar Joblis]

Still holds, really. Unless you're going into the realm of very tough unobtainium, it's going to involve layers.

Now, the spacing could be stuffed with something fairly lightweight, but you're not going to be able to afford a solid layer that would stop it all the way. Spacing your armor is what's going to get you the most mileage out of stopping a hypersonic projectile. It's going to be bulky... like a space suit, which is what IRL is designed to cope as best as possible with hypersonic projectiles.

That's if you want to stay within the confines of RL engineering, but the principle holds pretty well in general. You could go for triple-layer unobtanium.

Outer layer is a "hard" layer that will bounce low-velocity bullets and disrupt higher-velocity projectiles. Middle layer is a thick low-density material; it's designed to hold the outer layer more or less in place without contributing to the mass of the armor much. A high heat of vaporization relative to mass would be nice, so it absorbs some more of the energy. Innermost layer is strong but on the ductile side, to absorb energy. Then inside that you have a layer of insulation so the user doesn't get cooked.

So 2050 odd tech would eqquate to...Tungsten, Aero Gell, and ...Rubber?

Well, tungsten is heavy.

I'd be comfortable going with different types of steel for the inner and outer layers, realistically speaking - steel coming in a very wide variety of toughnesses and being easy to obtain in quantity - but probably the fancy alternate is titanium outer layer and a carbon composite inner layer. I'm not a materials expert, of course, but someone had to actually try to answer the question. Make the outer layer come in modular plates for easy repair and replacement.

[The 44th Indp Legion]

So 2050 odd tech would eqquate to...Tungsten, Aero Gell, and ...Rubber?

Well, tungsten is heavy.

I'd be comfortable going with different types of steel for the inner and outer layers, realistically speaking - steel coming in a very wide variety of toughnesses and being easy to obtain in quantity - but probably the fancy alternate is titanium outer layer and a carbon composite inner layer. I'm not a materials expert, of course, but someone had to actually try to answer the question.

you can also try some carbon based mumbo-jumbo. They can already kinda make those fancy nanotubes in visible quantities, and by hell you should know that the military is all over that stuff in terms of interest (and funding too, probably)
possibly to make armour out of this by 2050? difficult to say, but i'd imagine it's certainly possible, not to mention viable, to use as a base material for infantry armour (very light, good thermal resistance, very good kinetic resistance).
EDIT: it's worth saying that armour that is, without painting or anything, pitch black, definately has it's merits in the 'cool' department.

[Clamparapa]

I know this has probably been done to death and it is a can of snakes I'm opening, but what effect do projectiles have on Borg shielding? Borg shielding works by rotating frequencies to match and cancel out energy; does it work the same for projectiles?

And if anyone brings up Picard and his tommy gun I'll do horrible things with my holographic Bat'leth.

[The 44th Indp Legion]

canon-wise, I think the trekkies just handwaves it and lets it shield projectiles but, practically, the kind of energy shielding that is described in star trek wouldn't really be able to full-out stop a projectile. I remember the term deflector coming up in ST but, if I recall correctly, this wasn't really a shield. Furthermore I've never seen trekkie shields stop asteroids or the like, although it would be very logical if they did, given the speeds that they travel on when on 'impulse power'. On another note, kinetic projectiles aren't all that viable in space combat due to the ranges involved.
On a final note, in the trekkie mummorperger borg shields are relatively easily pierced by kinetic dmg weapons from what I could tell, but they still shielded the largest part of the damage.

[Risen Britannia]

I know this has probably been done to death and it is a can of snakes I'm opening, but what effect do projectiles have on Borg shielding? Borg shielding works by rotating frequencies to match and cancel out energy; does it work the same for projectiles?

And if anyone brings up Picard and his tommy gun I'll do horrible things with my holographic Bat'leth.

What ever happens a KE round will have some effect. If you hit the shields with a force of "X", that force is going to act on the shields and in turn whatever is generating the shield (concivation of motion). And if force "X" is large enough, the bolts/welds holding the generator in place will break, which isn't good for a ship...

[The 44th Indp Legion]

I know this has probably been done to death and it is a can of snakes I'm opening, but what effect do projectiles have on Borg shielding? Borg shielding works by rotating frequencies to match and cancel out energy; does it work the same for projectiles?

And if anyone brings up Picard and his tommy gun I'll do horrible things with my holographic Bat'leth.

What ever happens a KE round will have some effect. If you hit the shields with a force of "X", that force is going to act on the shields and in turn whatever is generating the shield (concivation of motion). And if force "X" is large enough, the bolts/welds holding the generator in place will break, which isn't good for a ship...

unless you somehow distribute the acceleration caused by the force evenly through fancy unobtanium shielding, in which case your ship would veer but it wouldn't be al lthat bad since the most damaging whiplash-ish effect otherwise suffered is, for the most part, negated, at elast on the mechanical components.

[Yes Im Biop]

Well, tungsten is heavy.

I'd be comfortable going with different types of steel for the inner and outer layers, realistically speaking - steel coming in a very wide variety of toughnesses and being easy to obtain in quantity - but probably the fancy alternate is titanium outer layer and a carbon composite inner layer. I'm not a materials expert, of course, but someone had to actually try to answer the question.

you can also try some carbon based mumbo-jumbo. They can already kinda make those fancy nanotubes in visible quantities, and by hell you should know that the military is all over that stuff in terms of interest (and funding too, probably)
possibly to make armour out of this by 2050? difficult to say, but i'd imagine it's certainly possible, not to mention viable, to use as a base material for infantry armour (very light, good thermal resistance, very good kinetic resistance).
EDIT: it's worth saying that armour that is, without painting or anything, pitch black, definately has it's merits in the 'cool' department.

Ok. So Carbon nano tubes for the Outer layer, And the Pitch Black coloring is great. Saves money for Spec ops suites. Next layer. Insulation, DE Dissipation and probably Heat dissipation. I was thinking Carbon Aero Gell.

[Tahar Joblis]

What ever happens a KE round will have some effect. If you hit the shields with a force of "X", that force is going to act on the shields and in turn whatever is generating the shield (concivation of motion). And if force "X" is large enough, the bolts/welds holding the generator in place will break, which isn't good for a ship...

unless you somehow distribute the acceleration caused by the force evenly through fancy unobtanium shielding, in which case your ship would veer but it wouldn't be al lthat bad since the most damaging whiplash-ish effect otherwise suffered is, for the most part, negated, at elast on the mechanical components.

I propose we call this an "inertial dampener." As a plus side, it would also allow fast acceleration by engines.

The brief unpredictable lurch if it was less than 100% perfect would give you an excuse to make people fall over in the command center, or "bridge," of these vessels...

Wait, doesn't that sound familiar?

[The Fedral Union]

Sure Kinetic projectiles can be viable. Mount them on a launch vehicle with the ability to accelerate to a significant speed, also put guidance on the thing. This is a missile, missiles don't always have to have explosive warheads, they are extremely versatile and can be scaled to most needs. Anything from bomb pumped lasers , to a shaped warhead, to a super dense kinetic penetrator to a big ass warhead.


Mind you unlike unguided big gun shells IE BSG and such you can also lunge missiles from behind stellar bodies if you have the right guidance, and if you have the right engines with the right efficacy you can use them at most ranges. Weather it can be shot down or not. Different story.

[Ruthless Slaughter]

Being a hardcore trekkie, and thus issuing at best a quasi-educated assessment, Borg shields do alternate frequencies to best absorb an energy weapon being fired at them. Thus I'd guess that no matter the frequency there is a universal threshold for taking a kinetic shot. The Borg simply didn't plan for kinetic weapons because they're deemed woefully outdated by Trek standards.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Being a hardcore trekkie, and thus issuing at best a quasi-educated assessment, Borg shields do alternate frequencies to best absorb an energy weapon being fired at them. Thus I'd guess that no matter the frequency there is a universal threshold for taking a kinetic shot. The Borg simply didn't plan for kinetic weapons because they're deemed woefully outdated by Trek standards.

Which is why all it takes to defeat a Borg assault is a janitor with the intelligence to replicate a .45 at the nearest food court.

[Yes Im Biop]

Being a hardcore trekkie, and thus issuing at best a quasi-educated assessment, Borg shields do alternate frequencies to best absorb an energy weapon being fired at them. Thus I'd guess that no matter the frequency there is a universal threshold for taking a kinetic shot. The Borg simply didn't plan for kinetic weapons because they're deemed woefully outdated by Trek standards.

So they can be beat by a nice sized orbital railgun...Seems pretty pathetic to me.

[Risen Britannia]

"kinetic weapons because they're deemed woefully outdated by Trek standards."
Halos "Super" Magnetic Accelerator Cannons would like a word about that. As they fire a round with an KE impact energy of 51.6 gigatons of TNT

It is theorized that if a ship's armor or shields were to absorb all the kinetic energy of a super MAC round, the release of thermodynamic energy would still vaporize the ship. By receiving power from ground-based power plants, orbital platforms could achieve recharge and reload times as short as five seconds

[Yes Im Biop]

"kinetic weapons because they're deemed woefully outdated by Trek standards."
Halos "Super" Magnetic Accelerator Cannons would like a word about that. As they fire a round with an KE impact energy of 51.6 gigatons of TNT

It is theorized that if a ship's armor or shields were to absorb all the kinetic energy of a super MAC round, the release of thermodynamic energy would still vaporize the ship. By receiving power from ground-based power plants, orbital platforms could achieve recharge and reload times as short as five seconds

Outdated but able to rip ships to shreads...Like i said seems pathetic. And i dont even mean the Super MAC. I mean somthign that could be built in teh next few decades.