Argument Thread OOC Future Tech Only

[Senestrum]

Oh, they have bigger stuff. That's a chaos ship, but the imperium responds with a couple of similarly fucklolheug warships.

I've bolded a relevant part above. If this chaos ship was mentioned anywhere other than in Bloodquest alone, that would make it canon. Since it's not, I chose to go with the ones GW does acknowledge.

Does it have the Heretic Tomes label on it? No? Then it's as canonical as anything else that wasn't written by GW itself.

Deal with it.

[Zebian Syndicate]

(Strangely enough, I just noticed Senestrum's new flag is exactly how my dream last night can be sumarized. Coincidence? I think not! Are you some kind of dream creature thing I didn't know existed until now?)

[Clamparapa]

I used to have 10 kilokilometer sized ships when I was n00bing around in my region. Then I realized, "How in God's name would this ship turn, much less defend itself against a fleet?" And if it was destroyed, then there goes an entire planet's worth of people and resources. Now I have my much more humble 5.7 km long ships.

[YellowApple]

kilokilometer

Kilokilometer?

I think "megameter" is the word you're going for, if we're using SI prefixes.

[Caragonia]

I've bolded a relevant part above. If this chaos ship was mentioned anywhere other than in Bloodquest alone, that would make it canon. Since it's not, I chose to go with the ones GW does acknowledge.

Does it have the Heretic Tomes label on it? No? Then it's as canonical as anything else that wasn't written by GW itself.

Deal with it.

There's no need to act overly bitchy just because someone pointed out the grounds for their argument and it just doesn't happen to fit with yours. I said multiple sources.If that 'lolfuckhueg' was mentioned anywhere else, fine, I would happily accept that. If we happen to find it in the new Bloodquest book coming out next year, you can say you were right.

Can you deal with that?

[Axis Nova]

The size of a combat vessel should be dicated by a) role and b) the smallest dimensions possible for it to mount the equipment neccesary to fulfil that role and the related secondary systems and crew accomodations. It's better to have more ships that can do things in multiple places at once, even if they arn't as good as that one big ship.

Incidentially ships that rely primarily on armor for defence are generally going to be larger than ships that rely primarily on shields for defence. Ships that use lots of both will also tend to be large. The reasoning behind this should be obvious.

[Ularn]

kilokilometer

Kilokilometer?

I think "megameter" is the word you're going for, if we're using SI prefixes.

Is that a typo or are we seriously talking about a ship that was 10 million metres (10,000 kilometres, or almost the diameter of the planet Earth?) long?

[Senestrum]

Does it have the Heretic Tomes label on it? No? Then it's as canonical as anything else that wasn't written by GW itself.

Deal with it.

There's no need to act overly bitchy just because someone pointed out the grounds for their argument and it just doesn't happen to fit with yours. I said multiple sources.If that 'lolfuckhueg' was mentioned anywhere else, fine, I would happily accept that. If we happen to find it in the new Bloodquest book coming out next year, you can say you were right.

Can you deal with that?

I'm sorry, but your argument is simply wrong given that GW actually gives us a way of telling if something is non-canon. The frequency with which it appears has nothing to do with that. You see something once? That's grounds to say that it's probably really rare, as opposed to non-canon. Given where we see the things, it's likely that the only ships of that size are around the Eye of Terror or at Sol.

[Caragonia]

There's no need to act overly bitchy just because someone pointed out the grounds for their argument and it just doesn't happen to fit with yours. I said multiple sources.If that 'lolfuckhueg' was mentioned anywhere else, fine, I would happily accept that. If we happen to find it in the new Bloodquest book coming out next year, you can say you were right.

Can you deal with that?

I'm sorry, but your argument is simply wrong given that GW actually gives us a way of telling if something is non-canon. The frequency with which it appears has nothing to do with that. You see something once? That's grounds to say that it's probably really rare, as opposed to non-canon. Given where we see the things, it's likely that the only ships of that size are around the Eye of Terror or at Sol.

Since you've clearly made your mind up, I'm going to leave it at this. There's no point continuing such an argument that's likely to result in bad blood.

[YellowApple]

There's no need to act overly bitchy just because someone pointed out the grounds for their argument and it just doesn't happen to fit with yours. I said multiple sources.If that 'lolfuckhueg' was mentioned anywhere else, fine, I would happily accept that. If we happen to find it in the new Bloodquest book coming out next year, you can say you were right.

Can you deal with that?

I'm sorry, but your argument is simply wrong given that GW actually gives us a way of telling if something is non-canon. The frequency with which it appears has nothing to do with that. You see something once? That's grounds to say that it's probably really rare, as opposed to non-canon. Given where we see the things, it's likely that the only ships of that size are around the Eye of Terror or at Sol.

So you're saying I can write 40k gay slash fiction and - by not including this "Heretic Tomes" on it - it's automatically canon? Shouldn't this work the other way around, and verify when something is canon? Just sayin'.

Kilokilometer?

I think "megameter" is the word you're going for, if we're using SI prefixes.

Is that a typo or are we seriously talking about a ship that was 10 million metres (10,000 kilometres, or almost the diameter of the planet Earth?) long?

I hope it's a typo, but this is NationStates. In NationStates, Earth's diameter is shorter than the average frigate.

[Ruthless Slaughter]

That could be awesome. Tanks and infantry formations moving across the hull of an enemy dreadnought....

Screw ground wars, orbital drop pods, and bombardment. That's the way of the future.
I kind of want to do it now.

Of course, the problem is, how would you get the tanks and such to stick to the hull? Magnetic boots on infantry I can understand, (though a tad restrictive) but magnetic treads? Might as well go with space fighters then.

I'd be down for that. Have to collapse the shields first though

So that's 40 miles long, 12.5 miles wide, 6.25 miles high.

I mean, what do you make these things out of, asteroids, mountain ranges- what do you fuel them with? O_o


I realize it's in space but you still need fuel.

Why do you even need a ship that big, you'd have all these people to take care of too! O_O;

You're going to love this and hate me but they're all powered by a forced quantum singularity. It was the only thing powerful enough to do the job at the time. In 2004 I used it because the Romulans in Star Trek did it and then years later did a small research paper on the topic only to find that NASA is looking into it as we speak. And we made it out of Titanium laced with reinforced graphene tubes and steel supports. The outermost few hundred meters have to be armor and support structure lest the ship cave in on itself as was mentioned previously. In fact, surprisingly little of the vessel is useable by crew as most of it is guns, armor, but mostly the interlocking support structure that keeps it intact.

On the note of things getting lost in a ship that big, would anyone be interested in just such an RP taking place on one of my vessels? We're not 40K-esque at all though I will presumptuously say that I know a good deal about the fluff. I think my 40K Library has now surpassed 30 books...I have a problem. *ahem* Anyway, I think that could be an awesome idea for maybe something like a character RP. A cult pops up worshiping the black hole powering the ship or some such and they seek to liberate it from its bonds (breach or eject the core).

[Senestrum]

I'm sorry, but your argument is simply wrong given that GW actually gives us a way of telling if something is non-canon. The frequency with which it appears has nothing to do with that. You see something once? That's grounds to say that it's probably really rare, as opposed to non-canon. Given where we see the things, it's likely that the only ships of that size are around the Eye of Terror or at Sol.

So you're saying I can write 40k gay slash fiction and - by not including this "Heretic Tomes" on it - it's automatically canon? Shouldn't this work the other way around, and verify when something is canon? Just sayin'.

If you can publish it, yeah.

[Zebian Syndicate]

Great things have just happened in this thread.

Anyway, Ruthless, that sounds like a good idea. I'd be interested in getting in on it if it were to take off. Though I can't say I know a lick about your ships, I've got a few ideas of plox twizt to throw in here and there.
(It could only end so badly, it's blasphemously hilarious!!!)

[Manoka (Ancient)]

Perhaps it could be based on tonnage, like in the Navy.

Yeah, that argument is long, looooong dead. Back then we used to have TpB, or 'Thousand per Billion', in other words a thousand ships for every billion in your NS pop. It meant that certain people such as Bryn and Auman, as well as older nations in general, could claim to be powerhouses in NSFT and block off the hope that any newer members of FT could do anything that really mattered. Thankfully, it's gone the way of the dinosaurs, just with less meteorites.

What I meant was it could be based on weight or mass, rather than ship numbers. So that you could have 1000 small ships or 1 big ship and relativley speaking it would be the same.

Unless one used lighter weight materials for each said ship, but that could be ignored and we could use "tonnage" more or less as a metaphor.


I.E. a ship has a certain value based on it's size and an individual ship could be more or less based on this.

Accordingly, we'd assume a similar reduction in power or something.

[Clamparapa]

Kilokilometer?

I think "megameter" is the word you're going for, if we're using SI prefixes.

Is that a typo or are we seriously talking about a ship that was 10 million metres (10,000 kilometres, or almost the diameter of the planet Earth?) long?

I said it was 10000 km in my actual description of it, hence the "kilokilometer". TBF when I said it, I was not as in tune with default lengths and probably thought a km = m, you know what I mean? Didn't excuse the fact that I also had ships going 10,000x the speed of light. Yes I raped physics when I was younger. I've learned though. *goes to check on his human minds that are stored on usb keys*

This was also back in '08 when I had no knowledge of FT in any way and had no FT nation; the nations of my region were simply writing an RP not based in NS.

[Sapphiruzz]

Hey.. new nation here, just need some advice and opinions on some technology i was planning to use in my factbook and RPs.

Ok First EMR(Electro-Magnetic Repulsion) technology:
This technology has many forms but is normally referred to as “force fields”. In some forms, can create a pulse similar to EMP.

EMR Rounds:
When these bullets are fired from a weapon, the projectile itself is surrounded with an EMR field. As the bullet flies through the air, the EMR field creates a tail and inside this tail is a small pocket of vacuum. As the bullet hits the target the tail slams forward popping the vacuum bubble causing a small explosion, sending out a small EMR pulse which has an effect on the nerves. The pulse causes a numbing feeling in the area that has been touched by the EMR pulse, rendering the body part useless for multiple minutes, depending on the body part and the size of the target.
This technology can also be converted to rockets, grenades, and other explosives. The explosions of these weapons create large EMR pulses similar to EMP, as that it can temporarily disable or destroy unprotected computers or electrical systems.
Finally the EMR technology can also be used without ordinance, in that it can be use as a nonlethal weapon. This can range from stun pistols, which send out short range pulses to stun targets, or stun grenades, which do same as the stun pistol. These weapons are normally wielded by policing forces.
Though older designs of these stun weapons could cause brain damage, this has been fixed in newer models.
I don't really know how to explain in, cuz I'm not a scientist but, I hope you get what i mean.

And the next if for some sort of FTL drive. This one was kinda sketchy. Idk if it would be considered god moding or not.
USD(Universal Space Displacement) drive:

This drive is an advance piece of technology which literally picks a spot, and moves anything inside the USD field to that spot. Now this is not a perfect system, which is to say it has many requirements in order for the jump to be possible. The first major problem is that, the longer the jump, the less accurate it is. In theory, this drive could jump a ship to the other side of the universe, but at that extent, the accuracy could land the ship in 1 million light-year cubed area.
Another failure is that, the smaller the engine the less accurate it is. So smaller ships cannot safely jump as far as a larger ships, but the larger the drive, the larger the down time. Down time is the time after a jump when the shields, USD drives and impulse engines are off, with a shuttle's down time at a short 5 seconds to a capital ship's down time at 10 minutes.
The finally failure is that it cannot jump through any solid mass. This problem is caused by the targeting computer's inability to lock a coordinate. This also means that the ship cannot jump into any solid mass, thus removing the possibility of a suicide, super speed ,death ram.

So yeah, just need some advice. If you have any problems with them just tell me.

[Vocenae]

Don't worry too much about trying to make all your tech scientifically possible, most of FT operates by these two guidelines: Rule of Cool and the Code of Bro.

Rule of Cool: You can have pretty much whatever you want so long as it's not god-modding. Typically you don't want to claim super ships dozens of miles long or half the galaxy as your empire, Rule of Cool is typically relies on a sense of self-moderation in what is reasonable or not.

Code of Bro: Mutual respect built over quality Role-Playing, communication and in general not being a asshole or a idiotic tool. The more respected you are in the community, the more willing people will be to RP with you.

These two guidelines will typically let you not worry about the mostly fictional science behind your nation and so long as you're willing to work with others in a cooperative environment.

[Risen Britannia]

"popping the vacuum bubble causing a small explosion"

wouldn't it be an implosion?

[Sapphiruzz]

"popping the vacuum bubble causing a small explosion"

wouldn't it be an implosion?

I don't know.... that's why I'm asking you guys.... Ive never dabbled in the world of future tech before.

[Clamparapa]

"popping the vacuum bubble causing a small explosion"

wouldn't it be an implosion?

I don't know.... that's why I'm asking you guys.... Ive never dabbled in the world of future tech before.

Think of the pressure gradient between the outside and inside of a vacuum. A vacuum implies nothing on the inside, so penetrating the outside will cause a hole to appear, and since the pressure gradient wants to equalize itself, everything on the outside rushes in to fill the vacuum.

[Sapphiruzz]

Mmmmhmm I think I understand... i just kinda guessed about the vacuum because i needed someway for the bullet to produce an EMR pulse when it hit a target.

[Feazanthia]

Gentlemen, it's been too long since we had an actual argument in here. We just keep retreading the same topics over and over again (kinetics v missiles v lasers), re-dispensing the same wisdom (why mechs and fighters make no logical sense and are purely for rule-of-cool, etc), and ragging on newbies that make us retread old ground. Time to shake things up with the following statement.

The Borg Collective, were it on the offensive and decided to commit its resources, would utterly obliterate the Galactic Empire and all other galactic powers in the Star Wars Galaxy.

Here is my reasoning.

The Collective is based upon a single principle - self-improvement via incorporating new technology and new species into itself. By 2409, the current effective "end" of the canon Trekverse (until they create a new series or what not), the Borg are the unquestioned dominant force in the Milky Way Galaxy; controlling most of the Delta quadrant and making steady inroads into the Alpha quadrant. They have achieved this via a slow and steady expansion of their territory, analyzing and assimilating every race that they encounter. They have, to date, met only a single foe they could not contend with alone (species 8472, AKA the Undine) due to the fact that they were extradimensional and therefore resistant to assimilation.

But I digress.

Let us analyze the advantages the Galactic Empire has over the current Star Trek powers. Their ship-mounted weaponry and shielding, by most accounts, is several orders of magnitude more powerful than anything in the Fed/Dominion/Collective arsenal. Their FTL drives are also much faster, able to cross the entirety of their galaxy in a matter of days or weeks rather than decades. This is due to power systems that are somehow more energy-dense than matter-antimatter reactions and fuel supplies that are somehow ridiculously easy to come by, but whatever. Regardless, the Empire's advantage lies in technology alone. Under Palpatine it has repeatedly shown an inability to adapt to new situations; rather it tends to repeat the same actions with more force to back each effort up. The second Death Star is perhaps the most visible example of this. Furthermore, galactic society as a whole seems rather stagnant in the universe. Even in the Old Republic era, they were using the same types of weaponry and the same tactics. Most of what has changed is the sheer power output of the technology and the destructive capability put behind said tactics.

The Borg, in contrast, lack the pure technological might of the Empire (due, in large part, to the differing set of internal rules governing the two universes) but are supremely adaptable. Indeed, a well known Borg "trope" is their ability to adapt. The Enterprise-D, in its first encounter, nearly obliterated a Borg Cube with only a few blasts from its forward phaser array. However, only a few short hours later, after having analyzed the Federation's technology, the Cube was shown to be nearly immune to the Enterprise's weaponry and Picard needed effectively divine intervention to survive the encounter. A year or so later, the Borg began assimilating and abducting entire Federation colonies on the borders of the UFP in order to gain a greater understanding of the Federation mindset and capabilities. Fast forward to Wolf 359, where a single Borg vessel obliterated the entire Sol defense fleet (and, reportedly, a task force sent by the Klingon Empire to aid its Federation allies) while sustaining only minimal damage. It was only through trickery and a greater ability to adapt to situations that the Feds were able to pull their ass out of the fire. Even when the Borg sent another ship years later, after having years to analyze and counter the Borg threat, it was only a stroke of luck that kept the Second Battle of Earth from being a complete disaster for the Federation.

Every time the Borg have nearly effectively conquered the Alpha Quadrant, they have done so with a single ship. The Borg fleet is estimated to be millions upon millions of Cubes and Tactical Cubes. From this, we can extrapolate that the Collective prefers to continue with its slower, steadier rate of expansion and considers the Federation to be an interesting but minor threat.

However, enough preamble. Let's get to the nitty gritty.

Should the Collective become aware of the Galactic Empire and decide to commit its resources to assimilating the Star Wars galaxy, it is no logical leap at all to assume they would adopt a similar general strategy to how they began their assault on the Federation. A Cube, or several Cubes, would begin attacking colonies on the fringes of settled space. Smuggler outposts, farming worlds, etc. Nothing with any real political or economic worth to the Empire, but with enough relative technological wealth to be a boon to the Collective. We know from canon sources that the side arms of the Star Trek universe are paradoxically several orders of magnitude more powerful than their Star Wars equivalents (a standard-issue sidearm of the 23rd century was able to completely vaporize a humanoid life form in less than a second [TOS, Wrath of Khan], compared to Imperial blasters which have been shown to only inflict burn wounds on a target if it does not hit a vital part [Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi]), once the Borg began beaming in drones they would very easily be able to overwhelm any colony. We know that, canonically, the blaster and turbolaser are built upon the same general principles as the pulse phaser - they are both charged bolts of exotic particles. Therefore, the nature of Star Wars weaponry would not be the deciding factor in an engagement - only the magnitude. The drones would quickly adapt and assimilate the target world.

Given their nature as outlying and/or criminal settlements, there would not have any capital ships in orbit to fight the Collective. A few Borg ships would be able to engage the theoretical defenders successfully despite the difference in power levels. We know that, at sublight, Borg and indeed all Star Trek ships are very agile and maneuverable despite their size (tactical maneuverability). We also know that Star Wars ships are relatively sluggish in comparison, and that despite the raw speed of the Hyperdrive (strategic maneuverability) it is relegated to mostly static hyperspace lanes and every jump takes time to calculate. The Borg would only need to take a single or a few ships and assimilate the crew to begin gathering an understanding of the base technology. From even basic corvettes and freighters, the Collective's ability to generate power and its combat effectiveness would be magnified. They would unlock the mystery of Hyperspace, negating the Imperial advantage of strategic maneuverability. These upgrades would spread throughout the Collective via subspace communication. While the individual Cubes may not still be an individual match for, say, an Imperial Star Destroyer, they become much better prepared. Also, remember that the Borg do not place any value on the individual. Every drone, every ship is a pawn ready to be sacrificed for the greater good. They could throw away countless ships against progressively tougher targets, improving their adaptation to turbolaser cannons and proton torpedo launchers while analyzing the weaknesses in Imperial shields. Once a shield is down, the Cube would be able to beam aboard drones and take over the ship.

Now consider what position the Empire would be in. Even assuming ships from the initial attacks escaped to report to sector governors, the Empire's immense fleet is continually under pressure to keep a tight control over the Empire's wayward holdings. It would take time for reports of the attacks to become important to the Empire, for the wailings of the regional governors to become answered, and for the Emperor to dispatch a task force. Let's be generous and say a month between initial contact and an organized Imperial response. All this time, the Collective will be continually assimilating knowledge and adapting its forces. Given standard Imperial tactics under Palpatine, if they did not force the Borg into a decisive engagement they would split up the fleet in an effort to engage the enemy. The MOMENT the Borg are able to favorably engage and assimilate an Imperial Star Destroyer, the war is effectively over. The Empire will be unable to adapt fast enough to counter the Borg, and the Borg will have the strategic maneuverability to begin a campaign of rapid expansion and assimilation within the galaxy. With the Empire effectively neutralized, no other galactic power will be able to stand against the Collective.

Maximum time to full assimilation: two years.

Now, in fairness, this scenario makes a handful of assumptions.

1) The Borg are on the offensive. Were the situation reversed, the sheer technological magnitude of Imperial technology would allow them to crush the opposition before the Borg would be able to adapt. Again, different underlying principles of the respective canons.

2) The Borg are able to assimilate Imperial technology. I find this highly likely, given the Collective's nanoscale fabrication technology and its history of being able to successfully assimilate nearly every civilization and technological base it has set its mind to (with the sole exception of 8472). Remember, the one native civilization we know of to stymie the Collective's efforts are the Federation, a relatively minor priority civilization who have shown to be nearly as adaptive as the Borg in their own way.

3) The Force is not a deciding factor. I also find this highly likely, given the Empire's stance on Force-users up until the Emperor's death and the fact that the Borg have shown no vulnerability whatsoever to the various psychic races in the Star Trek universe (Vulcans, Remans, etc).

4) Q does not intervene. Once again, I find this likely. He enjoys watching the mortals muck about, and his own advice to his son: "Do not provoke the Borg".

You may begin questioning my logic.

[Axis Nova]

The Borg adapt damn fast. Turbolasers are not a particularly complex weapon, so I'd go so far as to say they'd adapt within the first couple of volleys-- and after that, anything that fights them is screwed, because there's not really much in the way of weapon diversity on ST ships. Also, while it isn't shown directly in the series, a lot of supplementary material says that Borg cubes can fuse into larger cubes, which can fuse into still larger cubes, and so on and so forth, until they're moon-sized or larger. While a normal cube is adequate for most purposes I see no reason why they wouldn't just start making larger cubes if ISDs prove to be troublesome.

Also, while hyperdrive is all well and good, don't forget the Borg can travel via transwarp too, which is actually a lot faster (eg they can travel from the delta quadrant to earth in minutes if they so desire).

The stated SW power levels are obviously a load of crap-- in the first movie, for example, R2D2 takes a direct hit from a weapon that's supposedly as powerful as a nuke, yet he isn't vaporized and they manage to repair him in short order by the end of the movie.

Really the Borg are underrated around here. I blame Star Trek Voyager.

[Feazanthia]

In fairness, he took a hit from a fighter weapon that supposedly had to burn its way through a deflector shield. And I tried to stick to established canon as much as possible in my analysis, so no Cube fusing.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but to travel via transwarp don't the Borg need to use pre-constructed Hubs?

[Risen Britannia]

(this may be 100% wrong)
But isn't startrek based in the megawatt range, whilst starwars is in the gigawatt range. So a turbo laser might be have 1000 times the energy of a phaser.

EDIT: would someone care to explain how Borg can adapt to weapons fire?