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Ruthless Slaughter
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Postby Ruthless Slaughter » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:52 pm

This is why I use orbital assets for artillery. A frigate in high geosynchronous (sp?) orbit can provide better cover at much less risk if the local anti ship guns were knocked out. Even better park a carrier there and launch fighters while you're at it. You now have an orbital airfield, artillery corps, and command center that are out of reach of most ground forces. But that's me. I tend to try and make the only creatures I send into battle humans. I'm a firm believer in the adage that any job an animal can do, a machine can do better without getting spooked.

Were I to weaponize animals, however, I'd go small. Ticks infested with genetically engineered viruses released into barracks, microbes in the water supply, poisonous plants and countless other little horrors to terrorize an army.
Last edited by Ruthless Slaughter on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Risen Britannia
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Postby Risen Britannia » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:05 pm

Terraius wrote:
Risen Britannia wrote:reading all this talk about creatures in war, all i can think of is "nuke it from orbit"


Funnily enough thats peoples answers to pretty much everything, notwithholding Battlelizards.

Its a viable tactic, and a key stage to my invasion fleets
Ruthless Slaughter wrote:This is why I use orbital assets for artillery. A frigate in high geosynchronous (sp?) orbit can provide better cover at much less risk if the local anti ship guns were knocked out. Even better park a carrier there and launch fighters while you're at it. You now have an orbital airfield, artillery corps, and command center that are out of reach of most ground forces.
This is basically what I do for my expeditionary force[1], the heaviest vehicle I have on the ground is a form of IFV. All other roles (arty, air strikes, MBT, etc...) are provided by the ships in orbit.

[1]expeditionary force =/= army for me, they are two different things
Last edited by Risen Britannia on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Serpenta (Ancient)
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Postby Serpenta (Ancient) » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:07 pm

Serpenta wrote:Does anyone here know Freespace? If so, how effective do you think the technology would be against some other FT nations?
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The Fedral Union
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Postby The Fedral Union » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:07 pm

To be honest these things can be useful in some roles. Just not against concentrated artillery batteries or easily exposed to formations of heavy Armour. You can still sneak up from behind a hill or hide behind it lob an AT missile ,and then haul ass out of there as quickly as you can as soon as you fire. If the missile hits you get a strike but expect any competent commander to send recon out. Also to note even before the that armored column is passing through an area where your going to strike you should expect recon to be buzzing about in increments , so you'd have to time it right A, B this means every SECOND counts. And if they have constant monitoring ? Well that's where EW suites come in (they work best on planets)

Also to note mortars aren't accurate compared to other weapon systems, and are fairly low powered too.
Last edited by The Fedral Union on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[09:07.53] <Estainia> ... Nuclear handgrenades have one end result. Everybody dies. For the M.F Republic, I guess
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The Fedral Union
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Postby The Fedral Union » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:09 pm

Risen Britannia wrote:
Terraius wrote:
Funnily enough thats peoples answers to pretty much everything, notwithholding Battlelizards.

Its a viable tactic, and a key stage to my invasion fleets



It also eliminates venues for rp's and coolness, and while it might be effective some people are skiddish of things like you know mass murder.
[09:07.53] <Estainia> ... Nuclear handgrenades have one end result. Everybody dies. For the M.F Republic, I guess
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Senestrum
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Postby Senestrum » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:12 pm

Sertian wrote:
Ularn wrote:Yeah, pretty sure that 'lacks heat' is pretty much the definition of cold.

Although 2.7K is still warmer than I expected; I always thought space would be in the <0.25K range for some reason, i.e. absolute zero for basically all intents and purposes.


Space is neither hot nor cold because it's a vacuum and lacks any medium (well, meaningful medium) to transfer heat. If it was cold, space ships wouldn't have to worry about stopping themselves from frying the crew and their electronics by radiating heat.

So yes, there is a difference. :P


On the contrary, space doesn't need a medium to transfer heat; it has the microwave background radiation to do so. An object in space hotter than the CMB will cool until it reaches the background temperature, while an object cooler than the CMB will warm until it reaches it.

Risen Britannia wrote:would BAE's "ADAPTIV" work in space?
"ADAPTIV works by using lightweight hexagonal pixels which are electrically powered by the vehicles systems. The pixels are individually heated and cooled using commercially available semi-conducting technology. The hand-sized pixels are made of metal, so that they can sustain physical impact and provide defence against enemy ordnance. The entire system has been designed with ease of use in mind, and the pixels are able to be easily and rapidly removed and replaced if damaged.

Once mounted on a vehicles hull or ballistic armour plates, ADAPTIV renders a vehicle invisible to infra-red and other surveillance technology"


It would introduce additional waste heat. Just have a heat transfer system so you can make parts of the hull cooler, which would do the same thing by shuttling around heat instead of actively cooling and heating areas of the hull.

Otagia wrote:
Risen Britannia wrote:would BAE's "ADAPTIV" work in space?
"ADAPTIV works by using lightweight hexagonal pixels which are electrically powered by the vehicles systems. The pixels are individually heated and cooled using commercially available semi-conducting technology. The hand-sized pixels are made of metal, so that they can sustain physical impact and provide defence against enemy ordnance. The entire system has been designed with ease of use in mind, and the pixels are able to be easily and rapidly removed and replaced if damaged.

Once mounted on a vehicles hull or ballistic armour plates, ADAPTIV renders a vehicle invisible to infra-red and other surveillance technology"

No. If it's even remotely warm, it's visible in space.


This is something that's massively overplayed. For instance, if your ship's surface acts like a blackbody radiator (the best possible scenario for someone trying to detect the ship), then lowering the temperature of the surface from, say, 296 kelvin(room temperature ) to 100 kelvin will reduce the amount of energy radiated by about 77 times. Get it down to 50 kelvin and you will have reduced the energy radiated by 1,228 times. Of course, since you still have to get rid of that waste heat you would have to heat the other side of the ship up so you don't fry, which would mean heating the other side a whole... 56 degrees from room temperature.

That's a pretty impressive reduction in visibility and, therefore, detection range. It is perfectly worthwhile to take measures to reduce your emissions.

Oh, and you might want to play around with this a bit, to give you an idea of sensor resolution limitations.
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Risen Britannia
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Postby Risen Britannia » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:14 pm

The Fedral Union wrote:
Risen Britannia wrote:Its a viable tactic, and a key stage to my invasion fleets



It also eliminates venues for rp's and coolness, and while it might be effective some people are skiddish of things like you know mass murder.

I would rather have a few people ticked of as collateral damage than have my drop ships shot down by a SAM site we didn't get


EDIT: really there shouldn't be any civilians near your military bases anyway
Last edited by Risen Britannia on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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StellarGate
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Founded: Feb 18, 2011
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Postby StellarGate » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Serpenta wrote:
Serpenta wrote:Does anyone here know Freespace? If so, how effective do you think the technology would be against some other FT nations?


I have FreeSpace, and if you use it well you should be okay, though using solely FreeSpace tech is a good idea for starting out, over time you can customize your ships, and tech to adapt to the FT world of NationStates.

Like you may want a better FTL drive, or maybe improve the fighters or redesign them. It's RPing, and you an be as creative as you want.

I was once based solely of Honorverse tech, but that has changed a little as my holographics, FTL,and 'scouting ships' are improved and created.

Considering I don't have a human nation, but a pure alien one.. Yeah that tends to change somethings.
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The Fedral Union
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Postby The Fedral Union » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:19 pm

Risen Britannia wrote:
The Fedral Union wrote:

It also eliminates venues for rp's and coolness, and while it might be effective some people are skiddish of things like you know mass murder.

I would rather have a few people ticked of as collateral damage than have my drop ships shot down by a SAM site we didn't get



Then your not using enough of these. Also in You can use burrowing lower yield nuclear weapons (with less collateral , much less) and you can turn what ever you need to in to a smoking crater. And if you don't have EW suites that can work on planets/in atmospheres then you need new priories :P
Last edited by The Fedral Union on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[09:07.53] <Estainia> ... Nuclear handgrenades have one end result. Everybody dies. For the M.F Republic, I guess
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Risen Britannia
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Postby Risen Britannia » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:22 pm

The Fedral Union wrote:
Risen Britannia wrote:I would rather have a few people ticked of as collateral damage than have my drop ships shot down by a SAM site we didn't get



Then your not using enough of these. Also in You can use burrowing lower yield nuclear weapons (with less collateral , much less) and you can take what ever you need to. And if you don't have EW suites that can work on planets/in atmospheres then you need new priories :P

by "nuke it from orbit" I meant "general ass whooping from space"


its not restricted to just nukes
Last edited by Risen Britannia on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Fedral Union
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Postby The Fedral Union » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:23 pm

Risen Britannia wrote:
The Fedral Union wrote:

Then your not using enough of these. Also in You can use burrowing lower yield nuclear weapons (with less collateral , much less) and you can take what ever you need to. And if you don't have EW suites that can work on planets/in atmospheres then you need new priories :P

by "nuke it from orbit" I meant "general ass whooping from space"



Eh I'm just saying that's rather boring and perhaps the other player will have a thing or two to say about being given the NOOK to oblivion card eh?
[09:07.53] <Estainia> ... Nuclear handgrenades have one end result. Everybody dies. For the M.F Republic, I guess
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Senestrum
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Postby Senestrum » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:29 pm

Saturation nuking is the preparatory bombardment before you really get down to business.
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The Fedral Union
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Postby The Fedral Union » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:35 pm

Only if your following a plot that doesn't allow you to do that... And if its your only tactic your hosed. You also have to consider the preference person your role playing with to be fair... They might not like another power trying to nuke their only planet and claim "I win" or similarly systematically destroy every planet they have . Namely because if that's the only thing you do ... Then well you've basically annihilated them and wiped their nations from the face of the universe.

Who in their right mind will tolerate that?
Last edited by The Fedral Union on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[09:07.53] <Estainia> ... Nuclear handgrenades have one end result. Everybody dies. For the M.F Republic, I guess
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Imperati
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Founded: Nov 03, 2011
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Postby Imperati » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:38 pm

Or you use the saturation bombardment like they did back in WWII with the whole, blow up everything that could possibly be used as a factory to produce weaponry. Or anything else justifiable for military bombardment, which means everything.
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The Fedral Union
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Postby The Fedral Union » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:43 pm

This is my problem with the "NUKE EM ALL or BOMB em all crowd" they assume people will just roll over and accept that their entire civilization will be destroyed should they loose the space battle. I just consider it a tad bit arrogant, but that's just me.
Last edited by The Fedral Union on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[09:07.53] <Estainia> ... Nuclear handgrenades have one end result. Everybody dies. For the M.F Republic, I guess
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Rethan
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Postby Rethan » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:48 pm

The Fedral Union wrote:This is my problem with the "NUKE EM ALL or BOMB em all crowd" they assume people will just roll over and accept that their entire civilization will be destroyed should they loose the space battle. I just consider it a tad bit arrogant, but that's just me.

Oh what if you meet a power that's equal or grater in strength then you and for your nuking one of their worlds or bombing it they decide to fling planet crackers at two planets of yours for one theirs you glass?

This is possibly the only area I think MT surpasses FT, though it can be excused because in FT people are much happier performing genocide with gigaton nuke bombardments.

Losing your world to nuke bombing shouldn't mean the end of your civilisation. There are plenty of ways you can continue on and rebuild. Or you could RP as a resistance while your planet is occupied. Or a hundred other roleplays. MT does this, FT people seem far less inclined to lose their worlds and become crippled, because they can't be bothered to rebuild or roleplay as anything other than a substantial power. If every war that occurs in FT winds up with the end result being exactly the same as the starting situation, then why the frick do people bother including wars in their history at all?
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The Fedral Union
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Postby The Fedral Union » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:52 pm

Only the scale these folks are talking about you wouldn't have the luxury of rping anything alive.

What if you meet a power that's equal or grater in strength then you and for your nuking one of their worlds or bombing it they decide to fling planet crackers at two planets of yours for every one theirs you glass?


I suspect that if you didn't adapt your tactics . Your nation will be reduced from this power that just blows planets up to a fleeing rag tag fleet (If you some how manage to survive the hammer being dropped by any half competent power .) running from the blood thirsty vengeance seeking hatred of an entire nation.<-- Possible no?

Any who I know some people who would do this to every world they meet (Ie fuck ground battles completely just destory them)
Last edited by The Fedral Union on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[09:07.53] <Estainia> ... Nuclear handgrenades have one end result. Everybody dies. For the M.F Republic, I guess
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Arthropoda Ingens
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Postby Arthropoda Ingens » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:55 pm

Risen Britannia wrote:
The Fedral Union wrote:

It also eliminates venues for rp's and coolness, and while it might be effective some people are skiddish of things like you know mass murder.

I would rather have a few people ticked of as collateral damage than have my drop ships shot down by a SAM site we didn't get


EDIT: really there shouldn't be any civilians near your military bases anyway
Oh?

Most military bases kind of have shittons of civilians around them - some doing contractor work, other providing bogstandard services taken advantage of by the soldiers on leave, then there's the soldiers' families, the contractors' families, the other guys' families...

Military bases devoid of a civilian presence nearby are rather rare and limited to actual 'Holy shit that's really really secret' things.
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Zebian Syndicate
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Postby Zebian Syndicate » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:59 pm

TFU, that's why they invented anti orbital cannons.
Good stuff.
Many times stronger than anything that can be fielded aboard a ship. Plus many times more energy to work with. Many times more defense. And their only job is to shoot things in orbit.
So let's see how that planet razing fleet does when you start one-shot-ing enemy capital ships. :p


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Its actually an extremely disturbing thought when put to great lengths,...
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Terraius
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Postby Terraius » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:26 pm

Most people in the FT age either:

A) Have multiple planets colonized or
B) Have defensive measures guarding capital planets against the 'Kill all mortals' nuke button.

The 'Nuke them all' can be a fun plot arc if agreed upon by both sides and certainly does not mean the end of a civilization. One could even argue that a planet that is defenseless against a fleet being able to sit in orbit and drop nukes on them was either a minuscule holding or not important enough to defend to begin with.
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Risen Britannia
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Postby Risen Britannia » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:34 pm

nukes aren't a "win button". Unless you burn off the atmosphere you are never going to kill an entire planets population/army in one attack
Arthropoda Ingens wrote:
Risen Britannia wrote:I would rather have a few people ticked of as collateral damage than have my drop ships shot down by a SAM site we didn't get


EDIT: really there shouldn't be any civilians near your military bases anyway
Oh?

Most military bases kind of have shittons of civilians around them - some doing contractor work, other providing bogstandard services taken advantage of by the soldiers on leave, then there's the soldiers' families, the contractors' families, the other guys' families...

Military bases devoid of a civilian presence nearby are rather rare and limited to actual 'Holy shit that's really really secret' things.

I wouldn't count those as "mass murder". What i was referring to was building bases near populated areas (cities). And then effectively using them as a human shield
Last edited by Risen Britannia on Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Senestrum
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Postby Senestrum » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:37 pm

Saturation nuking is probably necessary to actually have a chance of getting anything through a big, beefy FT defensive network. Hundreds/thousands of years worth of hilarious military advancement will lead to some pretty silly stuff.
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Terraius
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Postby Terraius » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:58 pm

Senestrum wrote:Saturation nuking is probably necessary to actually have a chance of getting anything through a big, beefy FT defensive network. Hundreds/thousands of years worth of hilarious military advancement will lead to some pretty silly stuff.


Thats a fair assessment according to Argument OOC thread.
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YellowApple
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Founded: Apr 08, 2011
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Postby YellowApple » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:38 pm

Senestrum wrote:
Tuthina wrote:Actually space is not cold, it just lacks heat. There's a different. :p
But I agree, as transporting the troops itself is problematic in space enough, not to mention continue supplying them.


2.7 Kelvin sounds pretty cold to me. :p


Space is actually neither consistently cold nor consistently hot, as its temperature varies depending on exposure to sunlight. Its temperatures can range from less than 10 Kelvins to hundreds or even thousands of Kelvins depending on how much thermal energy is radiating through a particular spot. RL spacecraft designers actually focus more on cooling systems than they do heaters, and for good reason.

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Ruthless Slaughter
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ruthless Slaughter » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:19 pm

Terraius wrote:
Senestrum wrote:Saturation nuking is probably necessary to actually have a chance of getting anything through a big, beefy FT defensive network. Hundreds/thousands of years worth of hilarious military advancement will lead to some pretty silly stuff.


Thats a fair assessment according to Argument OOC thread.


I applaud your subtlety :)

I do agree with TFU that ending a world in nuclear fire is certainly extreme, and should never be option one. That beng said, and correct me if I'm wrong TFU, but we play very democratic nations that try for the paragon of good ideologue. Someone like Rethan would look at our petty morality and laugh while punching the big red button repeatedly. It's just how we play our nations.

That being said, you would reasonably have plenty of chances to thwart that. Most folks have no fewer than two lines of defense on any planet worth saving. If it burns you either really screwed up strategically or it was agreed upon prior to the event. Either way it was always your call.
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I bet I would win in a war against you!
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