Advice Thread OOC Future Tech Only

[Thrashia]

Are the forces of Chronosia a threat to be stomped into oblivion because they're evil? Thrashia's imperial ambitions got you down so you decide to wage a holy crusade to utterly destroy him?

"Chron, I think someone is scratching at our door..."

[Rethan]

Well the whole. Elbow room is a bit dubious, considering just how stupid large space is. But to hell with realistic distances AND GET OFF MY STELLER LAWN

Is it? Life bearing worlds are not a dime a dozen...

And even terraforming has its limitations.

I do not buy into the Rare Earth hypothesis. Possible life bearing worlds are numerous when we realise that none of the things we need for life are things an alien race would necessarily need for life.

Worlds capable of bearing your lifeforms however....yes, they will be quite rare. And I'm eating them. ^ _ ^

[Sskiss]

I do not buy into the Rare Earth hypothesis.

You don't have too, and, well that's another debate entirely. I believe they are certainly not a "dime a dozen" as I mentioned earlier. And many stars, because of there nature, will not possess them.

Possible life bearing worlds are numerous when we realise that none of the things we need for life are things an alien race would necessarily need for life.

Well, if you look at it that way, its plausible, but its all still conjecture. there are simply no absolutes at the moment. We do however, require water and enough oxygen and of course, enough of an atmosphere. Furthermore, part of the backdrop of our race is that we once inhabited roughly a third or so of the galaxy, and we did terraform many worlds within that area during our past. Its basically canon.

Worlds capable of bearing your lifeforms however....yes, they will be quite rare. And I'm eating them. ^ _ ^

Well that would depend where you are currently located relative to us. As I alluded too, we may have not reached your area of space at that point during our past.

[Vocenae]

I would think that any species capable of faster than light travel and ability to manage a multistar empire would also have the capability for some form of terraforming. Even then you could just build world in a cans and set them in orbit. Really if you want to be realistic about it all a single solar system has more than enough resources to sustain any empire that is capable of space travel. But this is why we use the rule of cool because otherwise it would. Be far more boring.

[Ularn]

I would think that any species capable of faster than light travel and ability to manage a multistar empire would also have the capability for some form of terraforming. Even then you could just build world in a cans and set them in orbit. Really if you want to be realistic about it all a single solar system has more than enough resources to sustain any empire that is capable of space travel. But this is why we use the rule of cool because otherwise it would. Be far more boring.

the thing about terraforming is that unless your technology is totally wanked you're still talking decades before the world becomes habitable; possibly centuries before it actually resembles Earth. I remember hearing someone say they had a device which could terraform any planet in a single day. I think around then I also stopped reading his posts.

[Rethan]

I would think that any species capable of faster than light travel and ability to manage a multistar empire would also have the capability for some form of terraforming. Even then you could just build world in a cans and set them in orbit. Really if you want to be realistic about it all a single solar system has more than enough resources to sustain any empire that is capable of space travel. But this is why we use the rule of cool because otherwise it would. Be far more boring.

I suppose YMMV on this too. A system may have huge resources, but I can think of a lot of reasons someone would need to go a-colonising for more than just compensatory reasons.

Worlds capable of bearing your lifeforms however....yes, they will be quite rare. And I'm eating them. ^ _ ^

Well that would depend where you are currently located relative to us. As I alluded too, we may have not reached your area of space at that point during our past.

Indeed. There is much of the galactic cuisine I am yet to taste....

EDIT BECAUSE ULARN IS A NINJA AND I HATE HIM lulz jk: Centuries is perhaps an over statement. When a race is capable of moving FTL on a regular basis, as well as manage an empire of more than one star system, they most certainly will be capable of terraforming a planet in less than 100 years. Assuming they're not dumbtastic and trying to turn a gas giant into a terrestrial. Maybe doing so in a day is a bit of a stretch, but given the calibre of other technologies prevalent in FT, terraforming is low on the list for OMG WANK cries imho.

[Vocenae]

It takes me about thirty years with all multiple facilities running nonstop to fully terraform a world into garden world status. Typically all you have to is make sure going outside won't kill you horribly at varying speeds, air to breathe and some form of drinkable water supply. Once you have those and know the surrounding area isn't going to explode you can toss your lifeforms planetside. Hydroponocs or some form of artificial farm would be requirement since realistically seeds from your homeworld probably won't grow in toxic foreign soil and its microbial critters, etc. Really it just comes down to rule of cool and not wanking with it.

[YellowApple]

I would think that any species capable of faster than light travel and ability to manage a multistar empire would also have the capability for some form of terraforming. Even then you could just build world in a cans and set them in orbit. Really if you want to be realistic about it all a single solar system has more than enough resources to sustain any empire that is capable of space travel. But this is why we use the rule of cool because otherwise it would. Be far more boring.

the thing about terraforming is that unless your technology is totally wanked you're still talking decades before the world becomes habitable; possibly centuries before it actually resembles Earth. I remember hearing someone say they had a device which could terraform any planet in a single day. I think around then I also stopped reading his posts.

More like millenia, unless one is willing to drain his/her nation's economy on a single planet. Not to mention that the planet has to be massive enough to hold an atmosphere while being light enough for that atmosphere to not crunch all lifeforms under the sheer atmospheric pressure.

On the topic of specific gases, it could be said that a life-form breathes some other gas or liquid instead of oxygen, ingesting various oxides to receive the oxygen necessary for combustion. Most aerobic organisms only use oxygen as fuel to combust with internal compounds, and if combustible gases or liquids are breathed instead (such as methane or one of the other alkanes or parrafins), then a celestial body doesn't absolutely require oxygen to be in its atmosphere, as long as the organisms are capable of receiving oxygen via another molecule (such as water, carbon dioxide, sand, or rust). Or, an entirely different form of energy-transforming reaction could occur, such as a reaction between potassium and dihydrogen monoxide, resulting in potassium hydroxide and hydrogen gas as waste products.

So really, a planet doesn't necessarily have to be earth-like, as long as the life form is capable of making use of the resources of the planet it exists on to produce energy and cellular material.

[Avenio]

On the topic of specific gases, it could be said that a life-form breathes some other gas or liquid instead of oxygen, ingesting various oxides to receive the oxygen necessary for combustion.

I wouldn't say that, really. Oxides like CO2 are quite stable and are expensive, energy-wise, to break apart; I don't know the processes involved, but I can imagine it would take more energy to perform the necessary reactions than you would get out by generating oxygen.

Most aerobic organisms only use oxygen as fuel to combust with internal compounds,

Well, no, it's not that simple. Oxygen is used as a final electron acceptor in the electron transport chain, which literally is the basis for all of the energy in our bodies, in the form of ATP. Besides which, anaerobic respiration is less efficient than aerobic respiration; there's a reason why anaerobes are restricted to single-celled or colonial critters.

and if combustible gases or liquids are breathed instead (such as methane or one of the other alkanes or parrafins),

Methane cannot be used as an electron acceptor; respiration is not as simple as combustion. Not by a long shot.

then a celestial body doesn't absolutely require oxygen to be in its atmosphere, as long as the organisms are capable of receiving oxygen via another molecule (such as water, carbon dioxide, sand, or rust).

Again, those compounds tend to be much more energy-intensive to break apart; it's much more unlikely that life would be based upon them.

Or, an entirely different form of energy-transforming reaction could occur, such as a reaction between potassium and dihydrogen monoxide

Potassium is much less abundant than carbon or oxygen, and such reactions would be very difficult to control at a cellular level. Not to mention potassium, by and large, is locked up in rock deposits that are very tricky to chemically separate. Oh, and 'dihydrogen monoxide' is actually inaccurate nomenclature. The IUPAC calls it hydrogen oxide systemically, but most people just call it water.

resulting in potassium hydroxide and hydrogen gas as waste products.

Both of which are non-cyclical, meaning that a hypothetical organism that based their metabolism around them would be utterly dependent on a non-renewable resource.

So really, a planet doesn't necessarily have to be earth-like, as long as the life form is capable of making use of the resources of the planet it exists on to produce energy and cellular material.

Eh, not that simple. The most liberal description I've heard of the hypothetical parameters of life is that it needs a solvent, a temperature gradient and an abundance of elements that can form complex molecules.

[YellowApple]

-snip-

All that assumed elemental and chemical composition similar to Earth, however. For all we know, there can be planets made entirely of potassium, and organisms don't have to use ATP; hell, they don't even have to use a ribonucleic acid.

Those explanations are true for life as we know it, true, but life based on entirely different chemical processes isn't exactly restricted to our observed parameters.

[Rethan]

That said, it is easily assumed (and proven) that for life to form, one requires some form of reaction to occur. This reaction needs to be capable of continuing and growing more complex, or it's stuck as just that single reaction occurring until it runs out of resources. A chemical/magnetic/whatever reaction which can be recycled and continue endlessly, continuing to grow more complex can eventually give form to life.

A potassium/water reaction is not sustainable nor cyclic in a natural environment. Even with a world rich in both, the chemical reactions will eventually burn out. While I agree that life does not necessarily require ATP, DNA, RNA, water or even matter (I recall reading a short paper on the possibility of life spontaneously coming out of plasma/dust/magnetic clouds), it does require an ability for a reaction to grow more complex and for it to continue cyclically.

[Sertian]

Since terraforming is relevant to my interests, I guess I'll pop in on this. One world in my Empire (Justicar IV, which started as a gravitational anchor between two resource rich asteroid belts and has grown from there) is probably going to be terraformed, since it'll be a bit of a waste of space to do otherwise. And besides, I need grand, resource consuming projects to prevent me from becoming a post scarcity economy and having my citizens devolve into lazy, non-productive bastards. And creating huge space installations and warships only goes so far.

Anyway, Justicar IV is roughly earth like in gravity (a bit less), has an atmosphere primarily composed of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, and is utterly devoid of life (and an ozone layer, due to lacking free oxygen to react with ultraviolet light). The atmosphere is a bit light, but its gravity puts it in better shape than our Mars. At first glance, it's a prime suspect for terraforming, just add water and life.

Except its not that simple, life is a rather complex and interwoven system. I would pretty much have to go through several million years of evolution on this planet induced artificially. Lets say that I start bombarding it with water heavy comets, which evaporate in its atmosphere so its not destructive to the mining complexes and what not I have in there and in orbit (I'll carve them up ahead of time if need be). This process, by itself, could take years or decades, perhaps centuries to tug the comets from deep space to give it a heavy enough water saturation (and we don't even have to go to the point of Earth, something along the lines of 25-50% might be enough to create a stable ecosystem, might be). After that point, we then introduce single celled organisms into the atmosphere to start converting the carbon monoxide and dioxide in the atmosphere into free oxygen and trap the crabon, this might take even longer.

At this point you've got barren, but oxygen and watered surface, so people can live on the surface now, but its far from completely terraformed. You now have the process of adding lichen and other simple life, which will take some time to create topsoil that can support simpler plants. And after those simple plants proliferate and spread for a while, you can then add more complex plants and simple animals, and so on and so on. You can probably fill the ocean with life before you could the surface, but I'm not completely sure of that.

Tugging a moon into its orbit would probably be done while the comets are being added, if i wanted to go through THAT trouble.

So, in my opinion. Terraforming to the point where people can live on it (although dependent on food not derived from the planet's ecosystem (hydroponics or using top soil tugged there or artificially made) could be possible in a few decades/century, depending on how fast you can saturate it with water, and how fast those plankton proliferate in the new burgeoning oceans. Terraforming to the point that its a rich, life filled garden like earth would take CENTURIES.

[Avenio]

All that assumed elemental and chemical composition similar to Earth, however.

Carbon-based biochemistry is by far the easiest, evolutionarily speaking.

For all we know, there can be planets made entirely of potassium,

Potassium cannot form the complex molecules necessary for life. The only elements that can form long-chain compounds that are necessary for life are carbon, maybe silicon and potentially boron. That's it. And, in the case of silicon and boron, both dislike forming complex molecules with other elements, severely limiting its ability to perform metabolism.

and organisms don't have to use ATP; hell, they don't even have to use a ribonucleic acid.

Never said they had to. They would likely have an analogue, though. And that limits our parameters.

Those explanations are true for life as we know it, true, but life based on entirely different chemical processes isn't exactly restricted to our observed parameters.

Saying 'what if' is not useful, scientifically. Based upon what we know in chemistry and biology, all life, whether carbon-based or otherwise, has to undergo metabolism, maintain homeostasis, possess the ability to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and undergo evolution. That categorization severely limits alternative biochemistry, because more exotic forms are difficult to chemically act in the manner stated above.

[Rethan]

This book may be relevant to your interests.

[Sertian]

I vaguely remember that nitrogen might be a potential basis for life too, although it's not as abundant as silicon based lifeform in Science Fiction.

On another topic, anyone mind helping me trying to figure out how my nation's economy functions? All I have is a class of macroeconomics underneath my belt. xD

[Sskiss]

I heard and read some time go that liquid ammonia (only normally possible on places like Titan - in other words, extremely low temperatures) might be a reasonable alternative to water as a crucible for life.

However, I think a "few centuries" is reasonable by gaming standards to terraform a planet.

[Ularn]

How do these sound for time estimates:

There's an RP I'm involved with at the moment where the UIF and a few others are "pacifying" a planet filled with radioactive zombies left over from a population of MT era aliens who apparently nuked themselves to death Fallout style about a century ago. If it goes on long enough, the plan is to terraform the planet and then bring the original species back to life through cloning, and have some fun debating the ethics of all this along the way. In this case, the planet is already nearly habitable; we just need to clean the ash and radiation out of the atmosphere and we're good to go. Even so, I'm still expecting it to involve a timeskip of at least a decade or two before the natives could be moved back in.

Closer to home, the planet which my capital city orbits was a mineral rich world which, now that it's metal deposits have been largely exhausted, is being terraformed. That's been going on for about a century and a half so far and right now they're still crashing comets into the atmosphere for water. The air itself is only just thick enough to breathe; you can go for a walk, but to run you;d need an oxygen mask. The largest "ocean," created from the mining canyons slowly filling up with water, isn't much bigger than the Adriatic Sea and only about half as deep.

[The Drone Empire]

Tag for later

[Thrashia]

Back in 04' when I first joined, when I stepped into FT I basically copy-pasted the "Titan A.E." method for creating a planet for myself.

[Sertian]

Alright, since the current topic seems to have died down a bit, I'm gonna start talking about economy again... Because, like I said, some input on this would help.

The key things to the Empire's economy, as I have it written down as of now is;
Capitalist in nature, with very few regulations and 'socialist' reforms. Most economic related laws/regulations typically deal with destructive or harmful practices to the economy. However, rather than regulating companies, the government runs/controls/places regulations/whatever on its own companies, which compete against privately owned companies. These companies are typically run to make a profit (with a few, rare exceptions for companies or services that are essential, yet incapable of being run in a way to make a profit), and typically have no special benefits that an average company in its situation couldn't access. The benefits to this are 1) A source of income outside of taxes for the government, and 2) Companies that don't compete (either in terms of prices, or employee treatment) typically fall behind, so its one way of utilizing economic reform without actually utilizing laws and such.

Non-debt based economy... Loans, or at least, interest loans, either don't exist or are a very rare thing in the Empire's economy... And this is what I'm mostly wondering about. Unlike the US (global?) economy, companies don't have periods of expansion where they take a lot of loans to capitalize on investments and what not, and then fall into a period of recession when they cut back to pay off these loans. Instead, companies (and the economy in general) probably grows at a steady pace. Does anyone know if this would work out, or at least its pros and cons compared to a loan based economy?

Scarcity Economy... Kinda. If the Empire didn't have huge, colossal projects (from giant warships, to vast global defense networks, to terraforming, giant city-stations, completely new cities and infrastructure across several worlds to support a vastly growing population, to even war) it might well be... Just do to how vast space and its resources are, it's almost a sort of 'constructive' version of the government's purposely wasting resources on war from 1984 (the book, not the actual year), except rather than resources its more like huge, colossal investments for protection and expansion throughout the galaxy! The way I figure it, 90-99% of the resources the Empire collect is utilized in these sort of huge projects, while the remaining 1-10% typically filters to domestic products. However, I figure even this small sum is enough to make base material costs fairly trivial, and thus most of the cost of a product comes from the cost of manufacturing. So, things are still fairly cheap, and even a single parent family could leave a fairly well life (assuming they have a productive job).

Food would probably be the least scare... With bland, but nutritious hydroponic and algae food (if you've ever read Prelude to Foundation, think of the algae vats utilized to feed Trantor, except a few leagues better in taste) costing perhaps just a few pennies or dimes to feed someone for a day, with more expensive but much better tasting food (typically also hydroponic or genetically engineered algae grown) also being sold to those that have more money and are willing to spend it on such things (and people usually do).

Finally, I have concerns of it being a service based economy... Because, well, that's sort of what the US is doing now, and its not particularly interesting! I have it so that computers, while very advanced, haven't replaced the need for a pair of organic eyes to watch over them (and usually in most industries, beings and computers run in tandem, rather than isolated by themselves). I would like to make it a manufacturing economy (something along the lines of the US in the 60s), based on the need to maintain, run, and work on the above colossal projects the Empire undertakes, but I don't know if that would cover enough jobs... So it seems like a substantial percentage of the population would be working at Space McDonalds or Space Walmart, dealing with customers...

And if anyone even bothered to read the above, any suggestions or feed back would be greatly appreciated!

[Sskiss]

Our economy would be based on various industries - which are linked. These are; Food production, Technological research and development, Resource extraction and processing, Ship and installation construction (including the expansion of population enclaves), Exploration, Surveying and Colonization and Terraforming. The Sskiss will also trade with others.

Their is no concept of banks, currency or "service based" economies or "scarcity". The Sskiss economy is geared toward expansion. As mentioned earlier, resources are plentiful, but life bearing worlds are not - certainly not as plentiful as the former. It is these worlds that are the most critical to the Sskiss.

(secret IC) - Currently, the Sskiss are researching a means in which to safely (and hopefully, quickly as well) move planets etc... utilizing artificially created gravity wells.

[Magnum Ultra]

tag

[Sertian]

Our economy would be based on various industries - which are linked. These are; Food production, Technological research and development, Resource extraction and processing, Ship and installation construction (including the expansion of population enclaves), Exploration, Surveying and Colonization and Terraforming. The Sskiss will also trade with others.

Their is no concept of banks, currency or "service based" economies or "scarcity". The Sskiss economy is geared toward expansion. As mentioned earlier, resources are plentiful, but life bearing worlds are not - certainly not as plentiful as the former. It is these worlds that are the most critical to the Sskiss.

(secret IC) - Currently, the Sskiss are researching a means in which to safely (and hopefully, quickly as well) move planets etc... utilizing artificially created gravity wells.

Yeah, as I sort of implied expansion (militarily, economically, population-ly) is a huge source of the resource expenditure of the Empire... So I suppose you could say the Empire has a VERY healthy economy, by the fact its rapidly expanding across the Gamma Quadrant.

Then again, that's only how a healthy economy is valued today... Who knows how it'll be judged in the future.

[Thrashia]

At the heart of the Thrashian economy is planetary trade. Intra-planetary trade can support a local economy, but, in many cases, the higher levels of government spending required for an advanced society such as Thrashia's can only be funded by interplanetary exports. While some planets maintain their own shipping fleets, most rely on large freight firms, such as Banston Transport Systems (a firm owned by the Banston Family, to whom Moff Banston is a son to the current patriarch of the business), or independent freight haulers to carry their goods along major hyperlanes. This is further expanded by inter-galactic trade with foreign governments and allied nations.
While the Imperial era saw dramatic increases in state control and centralization of economic procedures, it had little effect on the galactic economy, as witnessed in the virtual non-existence of inflation when Emperor Treize took control of and nationalized the Banking Guilds. Ostensibly, the collapse of the Coredian rebels [recently] and absorption of its assets by the Empire created a void filled by smugglers to address strong demand for shipping created by the Republic and then Imperial controls.

Droids are an integral part of the Thrashian economy and programmed for a number of uses, including construction, excavation, repair, piloting, maintenance, mining and other labor. The advantages of using such droids were that they could work in inaccessible and dangerous environments that most sentient species could not, as well as not needing pay or other perks sentients would. As such the vast majority of the Imperial workforce consists of droids.

Slavery, or forced labour, is ostensibly outlawed within the domain of Thrashia. However for those individuals who break the law of the Empire but are not sentenced to death, a lesser sentence is usually given. That lesser sentence usually consists of being sent to asteroid mining facilities or are given, through the Imperial Security Bureau, to the mines of Kessel, where the Emperor owns a significant plot of territory.

To compete in the galactic economy, many planets within Thrashia chose to focus their economy at a planetary level. Planets with a valuable natural resource would focus on its export, while other less fortunate planets would achieve success through economies of planetary scale. Entire planetary surfaces often were devoted to grain fields, droid factories, or mineral mining. These are especially common in those systems governed by pro-Guild moffs and planetary governors.

Other planets, however, (at least in earlier times) voluntarily chose what might be described as deliberate non-specialization. Small-time farming was the ideal. Herding and hunting also took place. Concentrating not on mass export but rather on providing for themselves, they were largely dependent on imports to sustain their non-agricultural needs. In some ways these worlds could be thought to rank alongside the more poverty stricken but in reality they served as the perpetual customers for which more developed systems existed to supply, thus creating a constant stimulus for commerce.

Imperial Revenue Codes govern the process of taxation in the Thrashian Empire. Under them, the burden of proof is on the taxpayer (at least for conglomerate corporations); failure to provide adequate proof of having paid taxes is taken as admission of guilt. Penalties range from confiscation of property to imprisonment in labor camps.

In return for the support given to the Corporate Sector Authority and allowing it marginal, if not total autonomy, the Empire collects a yearly stipend of 3% of the total gross product, 9% of all material, and 20% of all strategic rare elements coming out of the Corporate Sector.

[The Drone Empire]

Hello..

<_<
>_>

Er.. yes, so, I'd like to know - could one make a million ships that are top notch quality? I always thought the <Quantity---Quality> thing was set in stone as a rule for when making your fleet but someone I've met thinks otherwise.