Advice Thread OOC Future Tech Only

[Thrashia]

I'm a veteran nation and I still use FTLi. It's one of the more basic techs within my chosen tech base: SW-tech. The aversion people have against FTLi is largely due to the GM abuses that were used with it in the past. As long as it is used properly and with the consent of players involved, then there shouldn't be a reason for it not to be there; especially if its integral to part of your national defense or military.

[Neo Miranda]

You're better off not using it at all, but if you just absolutely have to, then yes, consolidate them for extreme close range defense around installations and planetary orbit. If you want to guard your cities from orbital bombardment, use shields even though I find those a bit wanky as well, especially if they're impervious to any and all damage and have a infinite source of power.

RPing shouldn't be about winning, it should be about writing a fun story where you've got a equal chance of winning or losing. If you try to RP to win, in the end you'll have less fun and more people who just toss a ignore at you. I know it can be a alien process to some people, but losing and rebuilding can be just as fun as winning.

I know it shouldn't be about winning, but I also want to prevent others from warping right next to my planets, bombarding them and warping again so I won't catch them or something like that.

[Neo Miranda]

I'm a veteran nation and I still use FTLi. It's one of the more basic techs within my chosen tech base: SW-tech. The aversion people have against FTLi is largely due to the GM abuses that were used with it in the past. As long as it is used properly and with the consent of players involved, then there shouldn't be a reason for it not to be there; especially if its integral to part of your national defense or military.

In other words, I should use it but only where it is completely necessary.

[Vocenae]

I know it shouldn't be about winning, but I also want to prevent others from warping right next to my planets, bombarding them and warping again so I won't catch them or something like that.

That's why you communicate OOCly with other players. OOC interaction is key to a good RP, and you'll find that the good players won't just leap into orbit and turn your planet into plate glass. Hell, most people will only level military installations from orbit and leave cities and civilian population centers mostly untouched simply because of most of us have a moral code against wanton murdering of civilians. That's when ground forces and planetside combat come into play.

No one really goes into war in FT anymore with the intent of genociding a planet's population or wholesale glassing of the planet. Most of us are there to get rid of you military presence and then begin absorbing your planet and it's population into our nations.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Most of us are there to get rid of you military presence and then begin absorbing your planet and it's population into our nations.

Although it is noteworthy that this statement is more literal in some cases.

[Balrogga]

I'm a veteran nation and I still use FTLi. It's one of the more basic techs within my chosen tech base: SW-tech. The aversion people have against FTLi is largely due to the GM abuses that were used with it in the past. As long as it is used properly and with the consent of players involved, then there shouldn't be a reason for it not to be there; especially if its integral to part of your national defense or military.

Technically SW FTLi is just tricking the navigation computer to not jump or make an emergency shutdown from Hyperspace by using gravity wells. The FTLi systems other players used and abused in the past have included the magical ability to affect everything they would meet from simple spoofing SWG Nav computers to preventing Warp, Hyperwarp, Transwarp, Wormholes, Dimensional Gating, Teleporting, and any other type of FTL from literature, entertainment, or imagination they did not like (and in many cases not affecting their own systems).

The SWG version is, like I said, a way to spoof the computer. One could disable the safeguards and cross their fingers and hope they did not blindly jump out of Hyperspace inside an object if they wished. I have seen this tactic used in several RPs to several results from destruct, to safe arrival to even the ship being lost in some uncharted area stranded. My Singularity Drives would have this passive effect on SWG vessels if I did not coordinate in the background my locations with my allies so their Nav Computers could account for our positions.

If I am wrong, please correct me or we can renew the Topic in the Argument Thread for clarification.

Like it was said before, many players will not have a problem if you talk about things OOCly and set reasonable ranges for your toys.

[Ularn]

I actually impose FTLi on myself voluntarily. Basically, I write it so that my ships cannot open a wormhole (our form of FTL) deep within a star system. As the destination of a wormhole opened in any given place is basically decided by gravity and dark matter distributions, the gravity well formed by stars, planets and even ships with large enough gravity drives would mess with the wormhole and could make it open inside a planet or star. So instead, the wormhole has to be opened outside the system and then have the ships travel the rest of the way at sub-light speeds.

I basically do this because I think they idea of warping in, dicking on a planet from orbit, and then warping out is a pretty lame way to conduct an RP. So I've put this limit on myself and would expect the opposition to write something similar for themselves out of politeness.

[Feazanthia]

It's important to remember that FTLi, in NationStates, was originally conceived of as a way to stem the tide of FTL munitions - missiles that would perform FTL jumps and emerge within the target ship's hull before detonating, making them impossible to defend against and 100% lethal. FTL munitions are, without a doubt, one of the most egregious forms of godmodding available to the FT community and should never be used unless agreed upon by both parties as a plot device.

Unfortunately, certain players who shall remain nameless took the concept and ran with it, forcing players to design their technology around purely Newtonian drives and essentially saying "You shall play this way and only this way, oh and my technology happens to be the best at fighting this way".

You can see the problem here. In attempting to end godmodding, we created more godmodding.

So, my advice would be to limit your usage of tactical and strategic FTLi. If someone's using it to launch FTL munitions, or to bypass planetary defenses so they can bombard with impunity and jump away without repercussions? Claim FTLi, and if they start being a little bitch then notify a mod so they can keep an eye on the situation. If FTLi would make for an interesting story, clear it with your roleplaying partner and then go nuts. But otherwise, remember - less is more.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I actually have a type of FTL munition, although to work it has to turn off its FTL drive. Since the FTL device in question is a Lensman-style inertia canceler.

So basically, if one of those munitions its a ship with FTL engaged, it will bounce off without anybody noticing because, while the device is engaged, it effectively has no mass.

[Rethan]

I actually have a type of FTL munition, although to work it has to turn off its FTL drive. Since the FTL device in question is a Lensman-style inertia canceler.

So basically, if one of those munitions its a ship with FTL engaged, it will bounce off without anybody noticing because, while the device is engaged, it effectively has no mass.

*sees Lensman*

I <3 you.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I actually have a type of FTL munition, although to work it has to turn off its FTL drive. Since the FTL device in question is a Lensman-style inertia canceler.

So basically, if one of those munitions its a ship with FTL engaged, it will bounce off without anybody noticing because, while the device is engaged, it effectively has no mass.

*sees Lensman*

I <3 you.

The next stage of my galactic domination plan involves antimatter planets zooming around at lightspeed.

[Balrogga]

My Grav Torps are easily capable of FTL but again, they are outside Real Space and cannot interact with ships when there. They would be used to fire at an enemy from beyond range and then FTL to the edge of the battlefield and then enter Real Space at that point and travel normally to their target. This is just about the only way I can justify using FTL munitions, to close the gap between extreme ranges but not in the effective battlefield being used, usually several light seconds to a couple light minutes depending upon the RP. That would give plenty of time for the other players to take several actions before they might hit (usually a couple posts).

[The Drone Empire]

Would it be optimal to use large ships that pack massive firepower but are rather slow? Like a ship thats 42 miles in length? [ so not lulzy huge]

[Boshuvania]

Well, it really depends on the acting-style and opinion of a player. Some people might want big ships with strong firepower, while others, small ships that are fast and able to dodge most of the lasers/rockets/bullets. Personally, I'd use the huge ships for orbital attacks/carriers and the small ships for dogfights/scout/breaking into the enemies space ship.

[Ularn]

Would it be optimal to use large ships that pack massive firepower but are rather slow? Like a ship thats 42 miles in length? [ so not lulzy huge]

Considering the sheer level of destructive power of most FT weapons (accelerated fast enough, a 2kg steel slug will impact with the force of several Hiroshimas and this would be pretty easy with the sort of energy FT ships have available) I'd say the size of a ship becomes largely irrelevant for strategic purposes as the first shot to get through a ship's shields will almost inevitably kill them outright regardless of their size.

Also, for the same price as your single 42 mile long ship, I probably could build a fleet of at least a thousand 800m Vengeance class superdreadnoughts (note that my entire navy only has about a thousand ships total, of which maybe fifty are Vengeance class), each with a gravitic cannon specifically designed to throw small chunks of metal around at ludicrously high speeds and give your monstrosity one hell of a bad day.

Also, I don't think you quite appreciate how big a ship you describe would be. That's not just the size of a city; that's the size of a country. If you have something that size then you'd have to be RPing it as the only ship in your fleet because there's no way you could find crew for, let alone afford to build, a second one - and since it's too big to dodge enemy fire, you know it'll just get one-hitted by a Vengeance or even just a 400m Justice class heavy cruiser (of which I could build three-thousand for the same cost) with a slightly smaller main gun, leaving your empire open for my plunderin'!

EDIT: Sorry if that came across as a sci-fi nerd rant. It's just whenever I hear about a ship bigger than about a kilometre I start suspecting the owner of compensating for something

[Feazanthia]

It's all flavor text.

Just remember, you can only use what you can get away with, and the bigger your ship is (or smaller, if you get into ludicrous range) the more people are gonna grumble.

42 miles is, of course, ridiculous.

[Sertian]

Actually, if you can justify having shields that can withstand nuclear level firepower, you can also justify having armor that can withstand that amount of firepower (it all depends on what sort of flavor you want for your nation), and it'll involve as much or perhaps even less amounts of hand wave or SCIENCE! than shields!

For example, the Emprium meta-material my warships use. Even though I have shields (of a sort) now, my ships still rely primarily on their hull for not being slagged in an instant. Although then again the properties of my meta-material essentially act like shields.

But yes, 42 miles does sound rather large for a warship (perhaps not for a colony/hive/sleeper ship, though). Not to mention the resources used in its construction... Anything that large I'd think would have to have been built within a large asteroid and had rockets and weapons strapped onto it.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

The largest constructs I have are 20 miles in diameter, and they're mostly hollow. My largest actual combat ships are something like 1.2 miles/1,800 meters, with most of them (in terms of battleships) being in the 400-800 meter range. And even then, the really big ships are meant to operate more like the Super class Star Destroyers. They're there to be intimidating and scary, the fact that they carry a fleet's worth of firepower is merely a pleasant bonus.

[Thrashia]

Would it be optimal to use large ships that pack massive firepower but are rather slow? Like a ship thats 42 miles in length? [ so not lulzy huge]

[Balrogga]

Before you read further, I am assuming you meant the 42 mile vessel only as an example.

Remember, every time you increase the size of a ship by double, you increase the dimensions by 8.

A 1 mile ship increased to 2 miles is doubled length, width, and height (if you did not double all three dimensions of the ship it would be very fragile and if you turned sharp it might snap in half from the stress alone much less take combat damage). That is 2 X 2 X 2 = 8

This means a 2 mile ship needs eight times people to crew, 8 times the cost for basic materials, 8 times metal to construct, 8 times resources to stock, ect...

A 42 mile ship would be enormous. 42 X 42 X 42 = 74,088 for the rough same cost in manpower and resources you could build over 74 thousand 1 mile ships or one 42 mile ship. Of course nobody would have a fleet of 74 thousand vessels, there would be no room for civilian traffic in your space. Also think of trying to name them all in your factbook...

[OMGeverynameistaken]

And that is most likely assuming high-end levels of automation, yes?

REAL men shovel their OWN space coal. Which means I have 1,200 people crammed into a 700 foot long ship. Although as I recall, the Nimitz class supercarriers are about 1,000 feet long and have a crew of almost 6,000 (including the air wing.)

[Ularn]

And that is most likely assuming high-end levels of automation, yes?

REAL men shovel their OWN space coal. Which means I have 1,200 people crammed into a 700 foot long ship. Although as I recall, the Nimitz class supercarriers are about 1,000 feet long and have a crew of almost 6,000 (including the air wing.)

Sounds about right.

I remember chatting with some guys from the Royal Navy - somehow the conversation got onto the Nimitz class. Apparently those things are so big that they have their own murder rate distinct from combat casualties. Guys have been declared AWOL even though the MPs know they're still on the ship...somewhere. There are areas below deck which the MPs just don't enter because they've turned into a ghetto and they're likely to get shived by a junkie sailor.

It's possible they were exaggerating a little (I got the impression they had a bit of a low opinion of trigger-happy American sailors) but still, this is a ship that's only 300m long. Imagine the extent to which this sort of thing would become a problem on the size of FT warships we're talking about.

Technology constraints aren't the only ones you have to make. Consider the social side of city-sized spaceships as well.

[Sertian]

It's possible they were exaggerating a little (I got the impression they had a bit of a low opinion of trigger-happy American sailors) but still, this is a ship that's only 300m long. Imagine the extent to which this sort of thing would become a problem on the size of FT warships we're talking about.

Technology constraints aren't the only ones you have to make. Consider the social side of city-sized spaceships as well.

Well, at the very least there should be internal sensors and tags on all your soldiers so you know where everyone is at all times, and you probably don't need AS many personnel... Then again, perhaps I should work on my tribunal at space procedure...

[Feazanthia]

It's possible they were exaggerating a little (I got the impression they had a bit of a low opinion of trigger-happy American sailors)

Try a lot.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

And that is most likely assuming high-end levels of automation, yes?

REAL men shovel their OWN space coal. Which means I have 1,200 people crammed into a 700 foot long ship. Although as I recall, the Nimitz class supercarriers are about 1,000 feet long and have a crew of almost 6,000 (including the air wing.)

Sounds about right.

I remember chatting with some guys from the Royal Navy - somehow the conversation got onto the Nimitz class. Apparently those things are so big that they have their own murder rate distinct from combat casualties. Guys have been declared AWOL even though the MPs know they're still on the ship...somewhere. There are areas below deck which the MPs just don't enter because they've turned into a ghetto and they're likely to get shived by a junkie sailor.

It's possible they were exaggerating a little (I got the impression they had a bit of a low opinion of trigger-happy American sailors) but still, this is a ship that's only 300m long. Imagine the extent to which this sort of thing would become a problem on the size of FT warships we're talking about.

Technology constraints aren't the only ones you have to make. Consider the social side of city-sized spaceships as well.

I recall reading one WH40k book where, due to the large size of a ship and its massive crew, the job of loading the main guns had become hereditary within a 'village' set up in the loading chamber. The people there had never seen any of the other crew for generations except for the occasional tech-priest and, as a result, basically worshiped the guns as gods.

That should happen more often in NSFT