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Ikania
Senator
 
Posts: 3686
Founded: Jun 28, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ikania » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:19 pm

No, I don't think that would work. Number one, I think it's too white, I mean yeah whites are cool but come on that leave nothing for everyone else. And a 14% native population just seems absurd.

The biggest issue, I think, is the notion of a peaceful transition to independence, the pre-existence of dominant western institutions and the prosperity level of your average Canadian province. We have nothing to start with. No roads in need of repair, no political instability, no rampant poverty or tensions. Just your average rivalry between two groups of Celtic white people. And obviously, it wouldn't be able to be independent in the wake of 1812- the British would subjugate the shit out of that colony if it was worth taking in the first place.

In Calaverde, we had problems to fix- a rebel coalition had just kicked out a military dictatorship. Problems abound, like infrastructure repair and the economy. In Elizia, a domineering single party state ceded control to democrats. Idk about Aurentina and Baltonia. If you look at Dagmar, where we started off comfortably in a social democracy, really nothing of note happened. No political shocks or yuge scandals, because clean governance and economic prosperity is the norm in the region. We'd be getting not only that starting as a white ex-colony off the coast of Nova Scotia (meaning one of Canada's largest, most developed cities is a few kilometres away).

I'd like to put forth a separate proposal. I've been thinking of Greeks, Arabs, Romanians even, Tatars, etc. I think I might work on a post-Arab Spring state sometime. But in the stead of those, here's an idea I had that might emulate what we're looking for well.

The location will be the south Atlantic ocean, off the coast of South Africa. Let's say hereabouts. Population from a million to two million, nothing too big, not tiny either. Its history will be as a former colony, swiped by either the Dutch, French or Portuguese (English/Spanish are boring and tried already). Here are some bullet points, under the assumption we're doing Dutch for the most part, because that's my favored culture.

- Colonized originally in the 1700s.
- Area had a unique pull to settlers and managed to attract a sizeable white population by the 20th century.
- Development of more unique traditions and culture as a result of the mixing between native culture and Dutch whites.
- Demographics something like 40% black, 40% white, 15% mixed-race and 5% everything else.
- If we go Dutch, then religion will be mostly Protestant (if we want to shake things up, we can make them Quakers or give them a special denomination instead of just regular ol' Calvinists). Otherwise Catholic, which is a bit flat, don't you think?
- Dutch speakers, with a Dutch-inspired creole evolving from native languages too. Maybe also a completely native language unique to the islanders, with enough significance that politicians would speak English as a bridge language.
- Occupied by the USA during the Second World War in the same agreement by which they did so with Suriname.
- After a period of unrest in the early 70s (around when Suriname left), building racial tensions are overshadowed by a surge of nationalism which developed after the war. The economic boom of post-war Europe kinda ignores this place.
- After a lot of turmoil and a near descent into chaos, a coalition government of basically every group on the island removes itself from the Netherlands shortly after Suriname does the same.
- The coalition immediately descends into squabbling and the entire country breaks down a la Cyprus in a way.
- Just before everyone is about to start killing each other... you guessed it. White-dominated military takes over and restores order at the cost of, y'know, freedom. Unlike other dictatorships, it's not that good at keeping the blacks down. Not to say that they're disenfranchised per se- well, they are, but so are whites. De facto segregation comes into place as the "National Unity" government spends the next 20 years overseeing economic ruin and lots of turmoil.
- No one really intervenes for fear of making things worse, similar to how the rest of Africa was at war in the late 90s and early 2000s.
- The NU government struggles with controlling the island especially in the last decade, where rebel groups rise up and take over parts of the country. They're all eventually quelled, since they occur one at a time.
- Around 2015, the economy just nosedives and the camel's back breaks. The NU government, despite doing its damndest, can't hold onto power unless they want to start slaughtering their own people. International powers, fearing a civil war, push a peaceful transition from power and the installation of democracy.
- And that's where we are now.

Thots? And yes, it does very much resemble Elizia and Calaverde, but I believe that is a strength in our background.
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MERIZoC
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Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:39 pm

It's worth noting Elizia was more or less a failure....

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Costa Fierro
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Founded: Dec 09, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Merizoc wrote:It's worth noting Elizia was more or less a failure....


Genuinely curious as to why you think that is.
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Britanno 3
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Posts: 20
Founded: Jul 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Britanno 3 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:03 am

Merizoc wrote:It's worth noting Elizia was more or less a failure....

Six months is only a couple shorter than Calaverde. Plus, activity seemed fairly consistent until the last 2/3 weeks of this itineration.
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The Sarian
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Sarian » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:41 pm

yeah but no-one enjoyed themselves
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MERIZoC
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Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:51 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Merizoc wrote:It's worth noting Elizia was more or less a failure....


Genuinely curious as to why you think that is.

Didn't last terribly long and no RP activity whatsoever basically. At least Dagmar had people trying to do stuff in the Daily Life thread. Elizia was just unexciting.

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Collatis
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Posts: 2702
Founded: Aug 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Collatis » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:09 pm

The Sarian wrote:yeah but no-one enjoyed themselves

^This really sums it up. Elizia had decent activity and a decent lifespan, but nothing really happened outside of the chamber. I wouldn't necessarily call it a failure, but it definitely wasn't a success. As Merizoc pointed out, even Dagmar had more non-legislative RPing. The only example of that we had in Elizia was the republic vs. monarchy campaign (which Ainin and I won in a landslide btw 8) ) and that was at the very beginning of the incarnation. For the Senate to continue, we need more than just voting and writing bills.

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FreYhill
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Founded: Sep 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby FreYhill » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:39 pm

Resolved:
THAT The NSS finds admin Merizoc abusing his powers.
THAT The NSS finds that admin Merizoc punished a member of the NSS for an action that Merizoc has committed.
THAT The NSS notes that there are no rules pinned to the IRC Topic.
THAT The NSS has no confidence in admin Merizoc.
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Patricio Magrina
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Political Compass:
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Tectonix
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Founded: Apr 30, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Tectonix » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:48 pm

Freyhill wrote:
Resolved:
THAT The NSS finds admin Merizoc abusing his powers.
THAT The NSS finds that admin Merizoc punished a member of the NSS for an action that Merizoc has committed.
THAT The NSS notes that there are no rules pinned to the IRC Topic.
THAT The NSS has no confidence in admin Merizoc.

if you're going to go this far, why not resolve to kick Merizoc out if that's what you are seemingly intending to do?
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FreYhill
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Founded: Sep 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby FreYhill » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:52 pm

Tectonix wrote:
Freyhill wrote:
Resolved:
THAT The NSS finds admin Merizoc abusing his powers.
THAT The NSS finds that admin Merizoc punished a member of the NSS for an action that Merizoc has committed.
THAT The NSS notes that there are no rules pinned to the IRC Topic.
THAT The NSS has no confidence in admin Merizoc.

if you're going to go this far, why not resolve to kick Merizoc out if that's what you are seemingly intending to do?

I'm moving for a VONC so that the NSS Adminship is free of corruption.
President Emmanuel Carvallo
1st President of the Senate of Fernão (2017-2017)
Chief Whip of the Civic Union


Patricio Magrina
Nominee for Secretary of Health and Labour
Member of the Events Committee

Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.51


Liberal Conservative Roman Catholic.
Member of the Liberal National Party of Queensland (LNP)
Supporter of the Coalition (Australia).

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Tectonix
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Founded: Apr 30, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Tectonix » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:54 pm

Freyhill wrote:
Tectonix wrote:if you're going to go this far, why not resolve to kick Merizoc out if that's what you are seemingly intending to do?

I'm moving for a VONC so that the NSS Adminship is free of corruption.

ah, I see.
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United Provinces of Atlantica
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Posts: 1850
Founded: Jan 02, 2013
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Provinces of Atlantica » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:19 pm

For context of Freyhill's post:

Freyhill linked to something that may have been Tumbra's FB account, and then Merizoc banned him for doxxing; should this change the views of any members of the Senate it should be noted that Freyhill attempted to evade his ban by changing his nick and rejoining, although he was banned for this as well. The second line is because Merizoc apparently linked to what may have been Lykens' FB account, although I'm not sure if this can be verified because this was quite some time ago. If any Admin would like me to provide a screenshot of the logs I'd be happy to provide them.

Freyhill wrote:Resolved:
THAT The NSS finds admin Merizoc abusing his powers.

To say that this is the case is obviously ridiculous. The power of IRC OPs to ban members of the IRC for specific actions is perhaps the most important one of IRC OPs; indeed, is it not their highest duty to provide for a relatively clean, doxxing-free environment? Also, Merizoc's power to ban members of the IRC stems not from his position as Admin, but from his position as IRC OP, which is something completely unrelated to his position as Admin.
Freyhill wrote:THAT The NSS finds that admin Merizoc punished a member of the NSS for an action that Merizoc has committed.

If you think that you were unjustly banned you'd probably do best to appeal your decision to the Administration (obviously Merizoc shouldn't participate in that decision because of a conflict of interest) and consider removing Merizoc from his position as IRC OP, but not Admin. Removing him from his position as Admin is not at all a measured response, because you're removing him from his position for what you view as an abuse of his power to administer the IRC, which is completely separate from his power to administer the NS Senate.
Freyhill wrote:THAT The NSS notes that there are no rules pinned to the IRC Topic.

Is this true? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that there are unwritten rules enforced by the OPs. I certainly think that we should list a set of rules so controversies like this one won't happen again, but if we didn't have a set of unwritten rules then people could do whatever they wanted on the IRC (including doxxing, and i'm not just talking about your type of doxxing-lite; I'm talking about hard doxxing such as what happened in early July) without any consequences, which is something that obviously shouldn't happen.
Freyhill wrote:THAT The NSS has no confidence in admin Merizoc.

Again, this isn't a measured response. Secondly, it should be worth noting that this completely violates all the NS Senate's decorum and procedures; removing an Admin firstly isn't a no-confidence vote (but rather an impeachment) and impeachment of an Admin is held after a majority vote to impeach one after achievement of ten signatures and that can only happen for incompetence or inactivity; neither of which occurred in Merizoc's case. It's obviously your right to change this procedure through proposing a Resolution changing that, but it should be noted that precedent (for example in NWO's doxxing of Kam) makes it so that Resolutions/rules are not retroactively enforced. Bear in mind that I'm not an Admin, so everything I'm saying is only my own guesses, not official decrees or anything.
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The New World Oceania
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Founded: May 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The New World Oceania » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:48 pm

I'd like to just throw it the following idea for a location, without any additional speculation on the idea.

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Socialist Nordia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Socialist Nordia » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:50 pm

The New World Oceania wrote:I'd like to just throw it the following idea for a location, without any additional speculation on the idea.


Wow, that's huge.
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Costa Fierro
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Founded: Dec 09, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Costa Fierro » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:58 pm

Socialist Nordia wrote:
The New World Oceania wrote:I'd like to just throw it the following idea for a location, without any additional speculation on the idea.


Wow, that's huge.


YUUGE!
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Tectonix
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Founded: Apr 30, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Tectonix » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:01 pm

The New World Oceania wrote:I'd like to just throw it the following idea for a location, without any additional speculation on the idea.


er, um, I'm guessing climate change will be a key concern?
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Eol Sha
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Eol Sha » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:05 pm

The New World Oceania wrote:I'd like to just throw it the following idea for a location, without any additional speculation on the idea.


I think the real concern is how this screws with the evolution of millions of species and affects the Earth's geological stability. :? :p
Last edited by Eol Sha on Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Partido Liberal Constitucional
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Founded: Oct 01, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Partido Liberal Constitucional » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:10 pm

I have my doubts about the Caspian Sea proposal. It would be really interesting, though probably a failure due to its unusual setting and strange multipolar politics. I'll be supporting another scenario for the greater good of nsgs.

Is anyone still interested in the Black Sea? We could be a tiny EU Slavic island country with minority problems, not unlike Bulgaria.
Last edited by Partido Liberal Constitucional on Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Soviet Canuckistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Soviet Canuckistan » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:11 pm

Freyhill wrote:
Resolved:
THAT The NSS finds admin Merizoc abusing his powers.
THAT The NSS finds that admin Merizoc punished a member of the NSS for an action that Merizoc has committed.
THAT The NSS notes that there are no rules pinned to the IRC Topic.
THAT The NSS has no confidence in admin Merizoc.

As Channel Owner, let me clear up a couple points,

The IRC Channel is an unofficial channel for the senate, the admins just happen to admin both based on the fact that if they admin here, they're generally good enough to admin the channel.

There are no rules pinned so that people can't use mods as weapons and mods can't just ban people they don't like, the general rule is just not to be a dick and bans are decided on a case-by-case basis
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FreYhill
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Founded: Sep 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby FreYhill » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:21 pm

Soviet Canuckistan wrote:
Freyhill wrote:
Resolved:
THAT The NSS finds admin Merizoc abusing his powers.
THAT The NSS finds that admin Merizoc punished a member of the NSS for an action that Merizoc has committed.
THAT The NSS notes that there are no rules pinned to the IRC Topic.
THAT The NSS has no confidence in admin Merizoc.

As Channel Owner, let me clear up a couple points,

The IRC Channel is an unofficial channel for the senate, the admins just happen to admin both based on the fact that if they admin here, they're generally good enough to admin the channel.

There are no rules pinned so that people can't use mods as weapons and mods can't just ban people they don't like, the general rule is just not to be a dick and bans are decided on a case-by-case basis

Ok. Thanks for clearing up. I suppose I'll withdraw the motion and leave it too the admins to deal with.
President Emmanuel Carvallo
1st President of the Senate of Fernão (2017-2017)
Chief Whip of the Civic Union


Patricio Magrina
Nominee for Secretary of Health and Labour
Member of the Events Committee

Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.51


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Ikania
Senator
 
Posts: 3686
Founded: Jun 28, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ikania » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:24 pm

If Merizoc really did put out Lykens' personal info (without his consent), then it would be completely hypocritical to try and keep Freyhill out of the IRC for doing exactly what you did.

And don't give me shit about how it wasn't "technically illegal" at the time or that rules don't apply retroactively- not being a dick is a universal, inarguable law, and you cross every line when you dox someone against their will. It's only fitting, then, that if someone is to be banned from the IRC for doxxing, it should be either Merizoc and Freyhill both, or we should absolve both and proclaim forgiveness and set a new precedent of complete intolerance of future incidents- period.

Also, there seems to be evidence to suggest "ban evasion" was just rejoining the IRC server after being kicked, not realizing he was banned.

I don't actually want to see Merizoc removed from the IRC or as an admin, but if we're going to give that treatment to Frey, it would be wrong not to give it to him as well. No? If Freyhill is willing to admit that his actions were wrong, then I would move to forgive him and let him back in- with a stern warning to everyone for any and all future incidents.
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FreYhill
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Founded: Sep 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby FreYhill » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:29 pm

Ikania wrote:If Merizoc really did put out Lykens' personal info (without his consent), then it would be completely hypocritical to try and keep Freyhill out of the IRC for doing exactly what you did.

And don't give me shit about how it wasn't "technically illegal" at the time or that rules don't apply retroactively- not being a dick is a universal, inarguable law, and you cross every line when you dox someone against their will. It's only fitting, then, that if someone is to be banned from the IRC for doxxing, it should be either Merizoc and Freyhill both, or we should absolve both and proclaim forgiveness and set a new precedent of complete intolerance of future incidents- period.

Also, there seems to be evidence to suggest "ban evasion" was just rejoining the IRC server after being kicked, not realizing he was banned.

I don't actually want to see Merizoc removed from the IRC or as an admin, but if we're going to give that treatment to Frey, it would be wrong not to give it to him as well. No? If Freyhill is willing to admit that his actions were wrong, then I would move to forgive him and let him back in- with a stern warning to everyone for any and all future incidents.

I agree 100%. Like what I said to MV in Telegrams, I know that what I did was wrong and I admit it. I felt so sick about it and regretted it straight after I pressed submit. :(
President Emmanuel Carvallo
1st President of the Senate of Fernão (2017-2017)
Chief Whip of the Civic Union


Patricio Magrina
Nominee for Secretary of Health and Labour
Member of the Events Committee

Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.51


Liberal Conservative Roman Catholic.
Member of the Liberal National Party of Queensland (LNP)
Supporter of the Coalition (Australia).

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Ikania
Senator
 
Posts: 3686
Founded: Jun 28, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ikania » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:52 pm

I think with a bit of forgiveness and mutual acknowledgement, we can move past this fairly quickly.
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Two-time Defendervision winner. NSG Senate veteran.
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Lykens
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Posts: 958
Founded: Apr 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Lykens » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:07 pm

The New World Oceania wrote:I suggest a Franco-Gaelic country off the coast of Canada. It'd have about 42% French, 42% Irish Gaelic, 14% Native, 4% other, with most people practicing Catholicism. South of Newfoundland, East of Nova Scotia, its history would be something like:
-Originally inhabited by Native Americans, Leif Eriksson decides to take a holiday here in 1000. Leif Eriksson Day is a major holiday comparable to Christmas
-French decide to build some towns and colonies here.
-French are forced to cede the colony after the Seven Years’ War. The British proceed to encourage Scottish and Irish settlement on the island to weaken the French establishment and French influence.
-In the 1840s and 1850s many Irish settle the island, fleeing from the Potato Famine. Because of an already-substantial Irish minority they aren’t forced to learn English. Gaels increase to roughly half of the population and Irish starts to win out over Scottish Gaelic.
-The islanders decide to remain independent (like Newfoundland) and not join Confederation due to a very different culture from the mainland.
-The United States attempts to invade during the War of 1812.
-Tensions between the French and the Irish cause a constitutional convention.

Thoughts?


I like this.

However I do agree with this:

Ikania wrote:The biggest issue, I think, is the notion of a peaceful transition to independence, the pre-existence of dominant western institutions and the prosperity level of your average Canadian province. We have nothing to start with. No roads in need of repair, no political instability, no rampant poverty or tensions. Just your average rivalry between two groups of Celtic white people. And obviously, it wouldn't be able to be independent in the wake of 1812- the British would subjugate the shit out of that colony if it was worth taking in the first place.

In Calaverde, we had problems to fix- a rebel coalition had just kicked out a military dictatorship. Problems abound, like infrastructure repair and the economy. In Elizia, a domineering single party state ceded control to democrats


However, the resolution thing will eventually cobble something together we can all support, so we'll see how that goes.

For consideration so we have a definitive start date and the procrastinators in chief admins can't get around it:

Sponsor: Lykens
Cosponsors: Freyhill


Resolved: The next iteration of NSS shall begin to be constructed by resolution process on January 5, 2017


Yes arbitrary.

Yes gives us time to think fondly of Obama.

Yes before we have a day of grieving fifteen days later.

Yes.
Last edited by Lykens on Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FreYhill
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Posts: 452
Founded: Sep 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby FreYhill » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:08 pm

I'll sponsor Lykens proposal.
President Emmanuel Carvallo
1st President of the Senate of Fernão (2017-2017)
Chief Whip of the Civic Union


Patricio Magrina
Nominee for Secretary of Health and Labour
Member of the Events Committee

Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: 7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.51


Liberal Conservative Roman Catholic.
Member of the Liberal National Party of Queensland (LNP)
Supporter of the Coalition (Australia).

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