[NSG Senate] Lobby-ing a Scimitar

[Britanno 2]

And no, I won't leave it to TGs because it seems the only way to get things done by you useless admins is to post a rant in the lobby, otherwise you'll sit on your fucking hands saying you don't have the authority to ban someone who fucking doxed me.

Right so just to be clear the admin team hasn't been doing nothing. We've been discussing the situation so we can work out the best approach. You can't expect us to rush a decision, and attacking people in the lobby doesn't make us want to do so.

[Arkolon]

As meta as that would be I'm not sure SE Asia is an important salt miner. Google reveals some in India but not much further.

For reference, anyway: electrical & electronic products, palm oil, liquefied natural gas, petroleum, chemicals, machinery, optical & scientific equipment, manufactures of metal, rubber, wood and wood products (Malaysian exports); Oil and gas, cement, food, electrical appliances, construction, plywood, textiles, rubber (Indonesian exports); Textiles, footwear, fishery products, rice, rubber, jewelry, automobiles, computers and electrical appliances (Thai exports).

China's a fairly large salt producer (as is Australia) so it'd make some non-meta sense. Generally though, it'd be excellent to have one of the world's largest salt producers to be Elizia.

We'll have a vote on the options, I think Anything else, after salt?

[Eol Sha]

I figured Elizia would be chosen as the next incarnation.

[NSG Senate Administrators]

viewtopic.php?p=29252558#p29252558

Voting has started.

-Merizoc

[Maklohi Vai]

*admin hat on*
Repeatedly refusing to use a person's preferred pronouns denies them full personhood. That could be ban-able in itself. Calling someone "disgusting thing" is just plain flaming, as is your use of the c-word to refer to someone.

I agree with the second point but since when was it Admin policy to censer ideological ideas because they are not the ones accepted by the majority? The fact you think not calling them a certain word denies personhood is a philosophical argument in itself.

I'd contend that it's an ideological idea, as every trans person I've talked to about pronouns has said something similar to me. Nonetheless, and I apologize for not making this clear when I posted ("could be ban-able" is not great wording in hindsight), but Kam was banned from the IRC explicitly for the flaming, not the incorrect pronoun usage.

As for Kam's post, Brit's already clarified that a decision is on the way, hopefully still by the timetable I laid out. Second, the ban is a recommendation to the IRC OPs, as the administrators don't actually have full control over the IRC. This is something we're looking to change, as it's clearly a problem. This will be expounded upon in the longer decision that's on its way. We'll be looking for community input on that as well. Third, regardless of who you're referring to, calling someone a "disgusting thing" is flaming, plain and simple. That's why we recommended the ban and OPs will be enforcing it.

[Kamchastkia]

I agree with the second point but since when was it Admin policy to censer ideological ideas because they are not the ones accepted by the majority? The fact you think not calling them a certain word denies personhood is a philosophical argument in itself.

I'd contend that it's an ideological idea, as every trans person I've talked to about pronouns has said something similar to me. Nonetheless, and I apologize for not making this clear when I posted ("could be ban-able" is not great wording in hindsight), but Kam was banned from the IRC explicitly for the flaming, not the incorrect pronoun usage.

As for Kam's post, Brit's already clarified that a decision is on the way, hopefully still by the timetable I laid out. Second, the ban is a recommendation to the IRC OPs, as the administrators don't actually have full control over the IRC. This is something we're looking to change, as it's clearly a problem. This will be expounded upon in the longer decision that's on its way. We'll be looking for community input on that as well. Third, regardless of who you're referring to, calling someone a "disgusting thing" is flaming, plain and simple. That's why we recommended the ban and OPs will be enforcing it.

Joking - banned
Fun - banned

That's it, I'm gonna do it! Hitler is a disgusting thing. Ban me wannabe mods.

I sexually identify as an attack helicopter. Failure to refer to me as such in the future "could be ban-able"

EDIT: BANANAS. Trump 2016. SWAG

[Maklohi Vai]

*admin hat on*

Thank you all for your patience as we’ve figured out this case.

Doxxing is a serious offense. It is a fundamental invasion of privacy. It is purely malicious, and even if the perpetrator does not intend to cause serious harm, doxxing cannot be tolerated. We do recognize the complexity of the situation, as some doxxing was tolerated by Kamchastkia before a particular name was brought up. With all this in consideration, the administration has recommended to the IRC OPs that Not a Bang but a Whimper be banned indefinitely from the IRC.

As for consequences for Not a Bang but a Whimper in the roleplay, it has been made clear that the IRC is not officially linked to the roleplay, nor sanctioned by the NSG Senate Administration, nor officially monitored by the administration, although IRC OPs tend to be admins or asked by admins to be OPs. The administration recognizes the significant role that the IRC plays for some in their experience of the Senate, and believes this cannot be taken lightly.

However, NationStates Moderation has told the NSG Senate Administration that we do not have power to enact punishment on the forums based on misconduct on the IRC. This was found out from previous instances of flaming on the IRC which we attempted to level punitive measures for on the forum. As such, NWO will not be disciplined on the forums.

Doxxing on the NationStates forums is typically punished with the deletion of a nation [DEAT], and, depending on the severity of the offense and the offender's record, sometimes a permanent ban of the user [DOS - delete on sight]. Any instance of doxxing within the roleplay will not be tolerated by the administration.

The following are relevant logs from the night in question. Any chat not related to the incident has been taken out. Names, numbers, and addresses have been redacted for privacy. In this log, Not a Bang but a Whimper is eh, and Kamchastkia is CrearBln.

Code: Select all

[2016-07-03 21:58:15] <Collatis> http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=29234297&sid=105d2a95662a9d6590acc7d58a5ee122#p29234297
[2016-07-03 21:58:16] <feepbot> NationStates • View topic - What is Humanity's Worst Failure?
[2016-07-03 21:58:18] <CrearBIn> hhahahaha
[2016-07-03 21:58:20] <CrearBIn> I GOT WARNED
[2016-07-03 21:58:22] <CrearBIn> FOR CALLING THE MODS CUNTS
[2016-07-03 21:58:23] <CrearBIn> XD
[2016-07-03 21:58:30] <CrearBIn> I should quote the warn
[2016-07-03 21:58:47] <CrearBIn> and ttell he/she/it/tranny disgusting thing that they weren't supposed to look at that
[2016-07-03 22:01:19] <eh> 9:58 PM <CrearBIn> and ttell he/she/it/tranny disgusting thing that they weren't supposed to look at that
[2016-07-03 22:01:24] <eh> since when is this okay
[2016-07-03 22:01:40] <CrearBIn> tranny
[2016-07-03 22:01:43] <CrearBIn> disgusting thing?
[2016-07-03 22:01:44] <CrearBIn> xD
[2016-07-03 22:01:57] <CrearBIn> eh
[2016-07-03 22:02:01] <CrearBIn> I refer you to this statement
[2016-07-03 22:02:01] <CrearBIn> http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=29234243#p29234243—ADMIN NOTE: This link leads to the phrase “grow a pair”
[2016-07-03 22:02:02] <feepbot> NationStates • View topic - What is Humanity's Worst Failure?
[2016-07-03 22:02:25] <Collatis> Okay Kam let's not
[2016-07-03 22:02:57] <CrearBIn> Boo fuckin' ho
[2016-07-03 22:03:05] <CrearBIn> Cry me a damn river.
[2016-07-03 22:38:12] <eh> kam
[2016-07-03 22:38:14] <eh> question
[2016-07-03 22:39:02] <eh> [redacted address]
[2016-07-03 22:39:08] <eh> is this your address?
[2016-07-03 22:39:50] <eh> and [redacted phone number]
[2016-07-03 22:39:58] <eh> this is your mother's phone number?
[2016-07-03 22:40:25] <CrearBIn> That's my old address
[2016-07-03 22:40:29] <eh> eugh
[2016-07-03 22:40:30] <CrearBIn> That home got foreclosed on us 2 years ago
[2016-07-03 22:40:32] <CrearBIn> :)
[2016-07-03 22:40:36] <eh> in search again
[2016-07-03 22:40:44] <CrearBIn> Where I live now won't be on paperwork
[2016-07-03 22:40:47] <Collatis> You really can't get accurate information on the internet :P
[2016-07-03 22:40:54] <CrearBIn> Because we don't legally live here/aren't supposed to live here
[2016-07-03 22:40:55] <CrearBIn> :3
[2016-07-03 22:41:05] <UotW_> You rebel
[2016-07-03 22:41:05] <Ainin> kam lives in a cardboard box
[2016-07-03 22:41:22] <eh> how about [redacted address]
[2016-07-03 22:41:40] <CrearBIn> Nope
[2016-07-03 22:41:42] <CrearBIn> Eh
[2016-07-03 22:41:45] <CrearBIn> We won't be on records
[2016-07-03 22:41:49] <CrearBIn> We don't legally live here
[2016-07-03 22:42:20] <eh> that looks to be where [redacted name] (assuming your father) grew up

[2016-07-03 22:43:21] <CrearBIn> 40 years ago
[2016-07-03 22:43:21] <CrearBIn> yes
[2016-07-03 22:43:44] <CrearBIn> His mom died and we sold the house.
[2016-07-03 22:44:00] <CrearBIn> You really this salty I called you a trannie
[2016-07-03 22:44:01] <CrearBIn> xD
[2016-07-03 22:47:19] <eh> so the most I can break it down to is the phone number
[2016-07-03 22:47:23] <eh> [redacted phone number]
[2016-07-03 22:47:26] <CrearBIn> Nope
[2016-07-03 22:47:28] <CrearBIn> Never been our number
[2016-07-03 22:47:30] <eh> and just a city
[2016-07-03 22:47:48] <CrearBIn> Everyone here knows the city I live in
[2016-07-03 22:47:52] <CrearBIn> I'm not exactly secretive about it.
[2016-07-03 22:47:57] <CrearBIn> Nice thing about living illegally
[2016-07-03 22:48:00] <CrearBIn> Really difficult to be doxed
[2016-07-03 22:48:01] <CrearBIn> :P
[2016-07-03 22:48:21] <Ainin> Guys
[2016-07-03 22:48:26] <Ainin> let's call a SWAT team on Kam
[2016-07-03 22:48:45] <eh> let's try [redacted address]
[2016-07-03 22:48:49] <CrearBIn> xD
[2016-07-03 22:48:50] <CrearBIn> nope
[2016-07-03 22:49:08] <CrearBIn> That's the nice side of [redacted city]
[2016-07-03 22:49:10] <CrearBIn> I wish we lived there
[2016-07-03 22:49:18] — Collatis tells the FBI there is a dangerous commie in [redacted city]
[2016-07-03 22:50:16] <CrearBIn> I don't think SWAT would raid my house rn
[2016-07-03 22:50:18] <CrearBIn> We have like
[2016-07-03 22:50:21] <CrearBIn> 20  people here partying
[2016-07-03 22:50:29] <CrearBIn> Not exactly easily to get SWAT to raid a house where there's obviously nothing wrong
[2016-07-03 22:50:30] <CrearBIn> xD
[2016-07-03 22:50:49] <CrearBIn> Though we might get a summons for setting off fireworks
[2016-07-03 22:51:07] <CrearBIn> Anything else eh?
[2016-07-03 22:52:14] <eh> how about [redacted address]
[2016-07-03 22:52:27] <CrearBIn> Nah, lived there in [redacted date] when my parents seperated for the summer
[2016-07-03 22:52:30] <CrearBIn> But haven't since
[2016-07-03 22:52:31] <CrearBIn> :P
[2016-07-03 22:52:34] <eh> [redacted phone number] keeps coming up
[2016-07-03 22:52:39] <CrearBIn> Legit eh
[2016-07-03 22:52:46] <CrearBIn> that's never been our number
[2016-07-03 22:52:46] <Collatis> How are you finding this stuff eh
[2016-07-03 22:52:47] <CrearBIn> xD
[2016-07-03 22:52:47] <eh> no one's ever had that number in your family?
[2016-07-03 22:53:07] <CrearBIn> No
[2016-07-03 22:54:20] <eh> this is the number of three addresses and a computer shop
[2016-07-03 22:54:25] <eh> it has truly been circulated
[2016-07-03 22:54:40] <Zurkerx> Why are we trying to find someone's number here? Really?
[2016-07-03 22:55:02] <CrearBIn> Because fuck it, it's Kam, who cares about him.
[2016-07-03 22:55:04] <CrearBIn> :)
[2016-07-03 22:55:12] <CrearBIn> General feel I'm getting.
[2016-07-03 22:56:22] <CrearBIn> And Zurkerx
[2016-07-03 22:56:30] <CrearBIn> Eh's tryna find my address cause I called her a tranny.
[2016-07-03 22:57:41] <Zurkerx> Let's just not look up people's addresses ok, it's not necessary
[2016-07-03 22:58:24] <eh> he seems pretty confident it's not online anyway
[2016-07-03 22:58:35] <eh> I would not be surprised if it isn't
[2016-07-03 22:58:36] <CrearBIn> Not filing legal paperwork has finally paid off
[2016-07-03 22:59:07] <CrearBIn> All those ignored threatening letters from the city
[2016-07-03 22:59:12] <CrearBIn> Finally worth it
[2016-07-03 22:59:17] <CrearBIn> xD
[2016-07-03 23:01:02] <eh> you must've moved in recently
[2016-07-03 23:01:16] <CrearBIn> [redacted date]
[2016-07-03 23:01:20] <CrearBIn> Take or give
[2016-07-03 23:01:48] <eh> you sure it isn't [redacted address]
[2016-07-03 23:01:52] <CrearBIn> Mhm
[2016-07-03 23:02:30] <eh> you last resided there in [redacted date]?
[2016-07-03 23:03:05] <CrearBIn> idk I was [redacted number]
[2016-07-03 23:03:10] <CrearBIn> I was born in [redacted date]
[2016-07-03 23:03:10] <Collatis> Okay eh why are you doing this
[2016-07-03 23:03:13] <eh> when did [redacted name] last reside there?
[2016-07-03 23:03:44] <CrearBIn> Don't bring my nephew's name into this shit.
[2016-07-03 23:03:49] <CrearBIn> Fuck you eh
[2016-07-03 23:03:55] <eh> just wondering kam
[2016-07-03 23:04:46] <Collatis> Okay eh there's really no reason for this
[2016-07-03 23:05:20] <eh> no, there isn't any reason
[2016-07-03 23:05:40] <eh> and I should hope we can come to the consensus there won't be any reason in the future either
[2016-07-03 23:06:12] <CrearBIn> Eh
[2016-07-03 23:06:17] <CrearBIn> Are you trying to threaten me?
[2016-07-03 23:06:20] <CrearBIn> Seriously?
[2016-07-03 23:06:32] <CrearBIn> Are you that fucking immature that you can't handle someone calling you a fucking tranny without trying to dox them?
[2016-07-03 23:06:44] <CrearBIn> And the mods here all just let it fucking happen?
[2016-07-03 23:06:49] <eh> is it automatically a threat if you feel threatened?
[2016-07-03 23:06:50] <CrearBIn> Ainin Collatis Merizoc Zurkerx
[2016-07-03 23:06:59] <CrearBIn> 10:05 PM and I should hope we can come to the consensus there won't be any reason in the future either
[2016-07-03 23:07:01] <CrearBIn> That's a threat
[2016-07-03 23:07:42] <eh> sorry if the ambiguity was threatening, here: don't be a fucking prick
[2016-07-03 23:08:16] <CrearBIn> 10:07 PM <eh> sorry if the ambiguity was threatening, here: don't be a fucking prick
[2016-07-03 23:12:07] <Zurkerx> Alright people, I'm off to bed. Refrain from doing anything stupid ok? Bueno
[2016-07-03 23:15:27] <CrearBIn> http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=29235219#p29235219
[2016-07-03 23:15:29] <feepbot> NationStates • View topic - [NSG Senate] Lobby-ing a Scimitar
[2016-07-03 23:15:36] <CrearBIn> All of you OPs are worthless
[2016-07-03 23:15:38] <CrearBIn> Good for nothing.
[2016-07-03 23:15:43] ← CrearBIn left (sid102203@id-102203.highgate.irccloud.com)

Based on the above, Kamchastkia’s one week ban is to remain in place. Insults of this nature are unacceptable, and will not be tolerated. He was already on thin ice, having already served lengthy IRC bans for similar actions, and we ask him that he use his second chance wisely.

We are aware of the concern over the regrettable lack of action by the OPs on at the time. Zurkerx was otherwise engaged, and while he could see what was going on, the nature of the conversation made it difficult to judge if anything wrong was happening, given the sudden turn in tone when one name. The situation with Collatis is a bit more complicated. He was never meant to be OPd, and with this in mind, Merizoc had asked him to refrain from kicking or banning people. This has been rectified, and Merizoc takes full responsibility. We apologize for this.

With this comes the need to re-emphasize the expectations for the IRC. Though this may seem like a general rule, we’d like to make sure that everyone knows to not be toxic. We do not want an atmosphere where certain players are made to feel unwelcome. As such, repeated insults (when not in jest), flaming, misgendering, and other toxic behavior will not be tolerated. Nobody will be banned or kicked for a first offense, but if an OP tells you to knock it off, knock it off. We do not wish to see any more situations like this one in the future.

Certain posts in the Lobby were particularly forceful in addressing the incident after logs were published in the thread. While most were well meaning, others were not. Here’s a blanket reminder that if you have factual information to contribute, please post away. If you are posting otherwise, please be considerate of the people involved in the incident, whatever it may be, as well as of the process that the administrators are undertaking to address the incident.

In conclusion, the recommended bans on the IRC on Kam and NWO are to remain in place for the given reasons above. Thank you again for your time and patience as we came to this decision.

---

That concludes the decision and reminder portion of this verdict, but there’s something else we want to address: the maintenance of the IRC itself. We cannot punish people on the NS forums for their actions on the IRC. However, we can still attempt to make the IRC a more welcoming place for all. After a similarly disconcerting incident many months ago, we attempted to solve the problem by asking individuals to be OPs on the IRC and monitor the discussion. This has not worked as well as we would have liked.

We believe there may be a better solution out there, and we want to hear from you, the members of the RP. How do you think the IRC can be improved? What should the administration do? How can we build community norms that are more inclusive and welcoming? We look forward to hearing from you.

[Kamchastkia]

-snip-

Summary: The only punishment is being banned from a chatroom if you dox anyone. Everyone, dox away. It also seems as though, instead of actually doing anything to prevent a loose cannon from doxing someone else, you spend most of your time talking down to me.

---

And for reference, what I did was not flaming, it was making a joke about me receiving a warning on the forums. I wasn't talking about anyone or anything in the room, I was referring to a warning where I edited a post to tell the mods "not to look here ya little cunts" (obvious comment made in jest) and was subsequently warned for using the word cunt (NS is worse than the FCC tbh). You seem to want to enforce forum etiquette onto the chatroom, where I made a comment about a moderator without their being there, and in obvious jest. Now, unless joking about people in positions of power is against the rules, I didn't do a goddamn thing wrong. I never flamed anyone. It seems more likely this is just stemming from the continued dislike for me by the NSG "Admins" (same admins who take nearly three days to make an 'official' statement and only take action against someone who dox'es after I post a long rant about the inaction) rather than any real violation of any rule or norm within the chatroom.

If 'eh' does not like my humor nearly every IRC & client has the /ignore command. I've done nothing wrong except make a joke referencing a subject that 'eh' and obviously the "admin" team are sensitive to. I'd like to know when Pruss gets his one week ban for bringing up substance abuse, a subject I'm sensitive about. There's no real reason behind banning me except for the admin team's oversensitivity and lack of humor. You guys also seemed to give 'eh' time to explain themselves within the chatroom for quite some time before doing anything to them, however I was banned without any consultation, without any perspective being given.

The OPs also found it proper to go around and joke with someone 18 hours after they dox'd me, instead of actually doing anything

1:39 PM <@Collatis> I have only have hair at the very bottom of my torso
1:39 PM Filimons → BuyingRazor
1:39 PM — eh doesn't have her legs
1:39 PM <eh> *****hair on
1:39 PM <BuyingRazor> >woman
1:39 PM <BuyingRazor> pls
1:39 PM <@Merizoc> Lmao
1:40 PM <@Merizoc> Eh
1:40 PM <@Merizoc> You need to get your legs back
1:40 PM <eh> I lost my legs in the war

The "admin" team's distaste for me, and favoring of 'eh' is quite obvious in the punishment given, and the manner it was given. The only reason anything was actually done about my being dox'd is because I made sure everyone else here knew about it, it seems that's the only way to ensure that something gets done around here if it involves anything that could possibly hurt one of the "admins" friends.

[Ainin]

However, NationStates Moderation has told the NSG Senate Administration that we do not have power to enact punishment on the forums based on misconduct on the IRC. This was found out from previous instances of flaming on the IRC which we attempted to level punitive measures for on the forum. As such, NWO will not be disciplined on the forums.

I am extremely confused by this statement.

It's longstanding precedent that the OPs of a roleplay thread can kick anyone out of the roleplay for any reason, no matter how arbitrary, and moderation has been known to get involved to enforce these OP-set bans from roleplays. Surely, doxxing is grave enough to merit such action?

[The Sarian]

However, NationStates Moderation has told the NSG Senate Administration that we do not have power to enact punishment on the forums based on misconduct on the IRC. This was found out from previous instances of flaming on the IRC which we attempted to level punitive measures for on the forum. As such, NWO will not be disciplined on the forums.

I am extremely confused by this statement.

It's longstanding precedent that the OPs of a roleplay thread can kick anyone out of the roleplay for any reason, no matter how arbitrary, and moderation has been known to get involved to enforce these OP-set bans from roleplays. Surely, doxxing is grave enough to merit such action?

Seconded.

[Argentarino]

However, NationStates Moderation has told the NSG Senate Administration that we do not have power to enact punishment on the forums based on misconduct on the IRC. This was found out from previous instances of flaming on the IRC which we attempted to level punitive measures for on the forum. As such, NWO will not be disciplined on the forums.

I am extremely confused by this statement.

It's longstanding precedent that the OPs of a roleplay thread can kick anyone out of the roleplay for any reason, no matter how arbitrary, and moderation has been known to get involved to enforce these OP-set bans from roleplays. Surely, doxxing is grave enough to merit such action?

I confirm this. I've definitely seen it done once or twice in RP threads, and the moderators have always supported the decision of the OP and/or Co-OP.

[The Licentian Isles]

However, NationStates Moderation has told the NSG Senate Administration that we do not have power to enact punishment on the forums based on misconduct on the IRC. This was found out from previous instances of flaming on the IRC which we attempted to level punitive measures for on the forum. As such, NWO will not be disciplined on the forums.

I am extremely confused by this statement.

It's longstanding precedent that the OPs of a roleplay thread can kick anyone out of the roleplay for any reason, no matter how arbitrary, and moderation has been known to get involved to enforce these OP-set bans from roleplays. Surely, doxxing is grave enough to merit such action?

To clarify, based on MV's statement that they can't ban people on the forums based on IRC conduct, I have seen people banned from role-plays based on their IRC conduct with no complaint from the moderators.

[Britanno 2]

The problem is that up until this point the IRC has been operating as something separate from the RP itself. This is what MV was talking about when he said that we want community engagement in a discussion regarding the future of the IRC. For now, however, we cannot just break a precedent because of popular demand. If we want to avoid this event in the future then we can reform the IRC, but changing the rules when we feel like it isn't ok.

[Yurizlansia]

Is it too ate to join?

[Skappola]

Is it too ate to join?

Nope. We're still welcoming new senators.

[Arkolon]

Is it too ate to join?

Nope. We're still welcoming new senators.

Still and always!

[Argentarino]

The problem is that up until this point the IRC has been operating as something separate from the RP itself. This is what MV was talking about when he said that we want community engagement in a discussion regarding the future of the IRC. For now, however, we cannot just break a precedent because of popular demand. If we want to avoid this event in the future then we can reform the IRC, but changing the rules when we feel like it isn't ok.

Popular demand is calling for peace of mind and following precedence regarding the authority of OPs to remove certain folks from RPs. You all really don't care about our concerns?

[MERIZoC]

The problem is that up until this point the IRC has been operating as something separate from the RP itself. This is what MV was talking about when he said that we want community engagement in a discussion regarding the future of the IRC. For now, however, we cannot just break a precedent because of popular demand. If we want to avoid this event in the future then we can reform the IRC, but changing the rules when we feel like it isn't ok.

Popular demand is calling for peace of mind and following precedence regarding the authority of OPs to remove certain folks from RPs. You all really don't care about our concerns?

"Popular demand" has been less than 5 people, almost all uninvolved, demanding the removal of NWO from the RP. We have already stated the multiple reasons why we haven't issued an RP ban. The decision is not up for appeal.

[Maklohi Vai]

However, NationStates Moderation has told the NSG Senate Administration that we do not have power to enact punishment on the forums based on misconduct on the IRC. This was found out from previous instances of flaming on the IRC which we attempted to level punitive measures for on the forum. As such, NWO will not be disciplined on the forums.

I am extremely confused by this statement.

It's longstanding precedent that the OPs of a roleplay thread can kick anyone out of the roleplay for any reason, no matter how arbitrary, and moderation has been known to get involved to enforce these OP-set bans from roleplays. Surely, doxxing is grave enough to merit such action?

There's a few things to unpack here. First, my original statement, as far as is known to myself and the rest of the admin team, is correct based on our collective memories of past attempted admin action.

Second, from our past dealings with NS Moderation regarding the NSG Senate Administration's punitive capabilities in this RP, our thread "flooding" of F7, etc., we do not have great faith that the NS Moderation would want to actively support the continued existence of this RP. To me, personally and not in an admin capacity, this means that asking them to enforce bans we set would not be a wise move.

Third, a counterpoint to this is that NS Moderation has banned people from NationStates for off-site activities. There was one user in particular, whose name I cannot remember, who was banned, though quite belatedly, for his involvement with child prostitution in Asia. In the grand scheme of things, I don't consider doxxing to be as serious as child prostitution, but that does not negate the fact that this case shows us that guidelines are not steadfast rules.

Frankly, a large portion of this is the concern that at the point where we enact forum punishments based on IRC conduct, NS Moderation comes in, once again, to not only disavow the punitive action, but to take further action against the administration or RP as a whole. Perhaps this is a paranoid view, and if so, tell me, please.

I'm going to talk about this with the admins further. Thank you for raising your concerns.

[Britanno 2]

Popular demand is calling for peace of mind and following precedence regarding the authority of OPs to remove certain folks from RPs. You all really don't care about our concerns?

The precedence of this roleplay has been followed. In this roleplay, OPs (admins) do have the authority to remove people from the RP, but our precedent on this matter dictates the opposite of what you suggest. And we do care about your concerns, which is why we have spent the last three days discussing them and why we are opening a debate about changing precedent. If you want a different response next time something like this comes up, then help to change our rules in the discussion MV opened earlier. We want to hear your opinions and we want to modify the roleplay so it fits your demands, but we can only modify our rules and precedents for future events, not change them in response to the direction the wind of popular opinion blows.

[Maklohi Vai]

Just as a late addendum to my above post: Merizoc and Britanno are more clear in their posts with our unified message, which I want to repeat for clarity: we have made a decision and it is not up for appeal. We do want to change the way things work, which is why I invited everyone to pitch in ideas on the future of the IRC. The admins are continuing to talk, of course, in order to fully explore this issue.

EDIT: Arkolon just (in TGs) excellently phrased a concern I've been trying and failing to express properly: "Where mods are concerned is that doxxing is an offense that we shouldn't act as pseudo-mods for. We don't want to take the real Moderators' authority in a matter so serious and taking that into our own hands would be walking on ice."

[The Nihilistic view]

I'd contend that it's an ideological idea, as every trans person I've talked to about pronouns has said something similar to me. Nonetheless, and I apologize for not making this clear when I posted ("could be ban-able" is not great wording in hindsight), but Kam was banned from the IRC explicitly for the flaming, not the incorrect pronoun usage.

As for Kam's post, Brit's already clarified that a decision is on the way, hopefully still by the timetable I laid out. Second, the ban is a recommendation to the IRC OPs, as the administrators don't actually have full control over the IRC. This is something we're looking to change, as it's clearly a problem. This will be expounded upon in the longer decision that's on its way. We'll be looking for community input on that as well. Third, regardless of who you're referring to, calling someone a "disgusting thing" is flaming, plain and simple. That's why we recommended the ban and OPs will be enforcing it.

Joking - banned
Fun - banned

That's it, I'm gonna do it! Hitler is a disgusting thing. Ban me wannabe mods.

I sexually identify as an attack helicopter. Failure to refer to me as such in the future "could be ban-able"

EDIT: BANANAS. Trump 2016. SWAG

[Yurizlansia]

Is it too ate to join?

Nope. We're still welcoming new senators.

Is there an application, or do I just say that I am present?

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

Nope. We're still welcoming new senators.

Is there an application, or do I just say that I am present?

You should apply here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=381848

Glad you're joining us!

[The Nihilistic view]

Getting serious. I won't be taking any notice of NWO here in this RP in future. I have had my run ins with Kam in the past but this is beyond the pale. In the absence of any meaningful action from the people we put our trust in to protect the RP from all sorts of things the only course of action is I propose a general popular movement to put said aforementioned player on ignore if they dare to show their face around the RP again. I have seen nobody yet accept the NSGS admits decision on the matter.

It is in our power ladies and gentlemen to do what the administrators don't seem to have the stomach for. Ignore the Doxer, support Kam and get on with the RP on our own terms.