[NSG Senate] Lobby-ing a Scimitar

[Argentarino]

Getting serious. I won't be taking any notice of NWO here in this RP in future. I have had my run ins with Kam in the past but this is beyond the pale. In the absence of any meaningful action from the people we put our trust in to protect the RP from all sorts of things the only course of action is I propose a general popular movement to put said aforementioned player on ignore if they dare to show their face around the RP again. I have seen nobody yet accept the NSGS admits decision on the matter.

It is in our power ladies and gentlemen to do what the administrators don't seem to have the stomach for. Ignore the Doxer, support Kam and get on with the RP on our own terms.

Hear, hear.

[Dejanze]

Getting serious. I won't be taking any notice of NWO here in this RP in future. I have had my run ins with Kam in the past but this is beyond the pale. In the absence of any meaningful action from the people we put our trust in to protect the RP from all sorts of things the only course of action is I propose a general popular movement to put said aforementioned player on ignore if they dare to show their face around the RP again. I have seen nobody yet accept the NSGS admits decision on the matter.

It is in our power ladies and gentlemen to do what the administrators don't seem to have the stomach for. Ignore the Doxer, support Kam and get on with the RP on our own terms.

I second the propsal.

[Ikania]

Getting serious. I won't be taking any notice of NWO here in this RP in future. I have had my run ins with Kam in the past but this is beyond the pale. In the absence of any meaningful action from the people we put our trust in to protect the RP from all sorts of things the only course of action is I propose a general popular movement to put said aforementioned player on ignore if they dare to show their face around the RP again. I have seen nobody yet accept the NSGS admits decision on the matter.

It is in our power ladies and gentlemen to do what the administrators don't seem to have the stomach for. Ignore the Doxer, support Kam and get on with the RP on our own terms.

Hear, hear.

Aye, me too.

[Maklohi Vai]

*admin hat on*

After significant further discussion, the admins are upholding the ruling. For the sake of transparency, the reason why we are doing so is because banning the player in question would be to punish them ex post facto, i.e. to punish them on the basis of a law which was not a law at the time the crime was committed. This is a basic tenet of justice.

I have directly discussed with a moderator our capabilities as administrators regarding punishments for off-site infractions. I quote: "A thread OP (on a board where thread ownership is valid, such as the roleplaying boards) has the power to ban a person from their thread for any reason, including none." I accept full responsibility for not clarifying this with the moderators earlier. Nonetheless, this does not change the ruling; the rule at the time of the doxxing was that we, the administrators, would not punish people on the forums for infractions on the IRC.

We will exercise the power to administer forum-side punishments for IRC infractions starting now. The precise extent of our use of this power, for example the types of IRC infractions and the relative lengths of punishments, had not yet been determined. This is something we want the community to discuss and set expectations for, and we will follow your guide. We also want to hear from you about how we can make the IRC a more welcoming place, how we can control it better, and so on. The admins have ideas about where we want things to head, but we don't have all the answers and suspect that, on this front, a community effort is better than our effort alone. We want your help.

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

*admin hat on*

After significant further discussion, the admins are upholding the ruling. For the sake of transparency, the reason why we are doing so is because banning the player in question would be to punish them ex post facto, i.e. to punish them on the basis of a law which was not a law at the time the crime was committed. This is a basic tenet of justice.

I have directly discussed with a moderator our capabilities as administrators regarding punishments for off-site infractions. I quote: "A thread OP (on a board where thread ownership is valid, such as the roleplaying boards) has the power to ban a person from their thread for any reason, including none." I accept full responsibility for not clarifying this with the moderators earlier. Nonetheless, this does not change the ruling; the rule at the time of the doxxing was that we, the administrators, would not punish people on the forums for infractions on the IRC.

We will exercise the power to administer forum-side punishments for IRC infractions starting now. The precise extent of our use of this power, for example the types of IRC infractions and the relative lengths of punishments, had not yet been determined. This is something we want the community to discuss and set expectations for, and we will follow your guide. We also want to hear from you about how we can make the IRC a more welcoming place, how we can control it better, and so on. The admins have ideas about where we want things to head, but we don't have all the answers and suspect that, on this front, a community effort is better than our effort alone. We want your help.

Some suggestions I would make would be to establish a clear set of IRC rules and to fully integrate the IRC with the onsite administration through making the NSGS Admins, and only the NSGS Admins, the IRC OPs, although the possibility of nominating IRC OPs to be Admins could also arise, if deemed necessary for administration of the IRC.

[Maklohi Vai]

*admin hat on*

After significant further discussion, the admins are upholding the ruling. For the sake of transparency, the reason why we are doing so is because banning the player in question would be to punish them ex post facto, i.e. to punish them on the basis of a law which was not a law at the time the crime was committed. This is a basic tenet of justice.

I have directly discussed with a moderator our capabilities as administrators regarding punishments for off-site infractions. I quote: "A thread OP (on a board where thread ownership is valid, such as the roleplaying boards) has the power to ban a person from their thread for any reason, including none." I accept full responsibility for not clarifying this with the moderators earlier. Nonetheless, this does not change the ruling; the rule at the time of the doxxing was that we, the administrators, would not punish people on the forums for infractions on the IRC.

We will exercise the power to administer forum-side punishments for IRC infractions starting now. The precise extent of our use of this power, for example the types of IRC infractions and the relative lengths of punishments, had not yet been determined. This is something we want the community to discuss and set expectations for, and we will follow your guide. We also want to hear from you about how we can make the IRC a more welcoming place, how we can control it better, and so on. The admins have ideas about where we want things to head, but we don't have all the answers and suspect that, on this front, a community effort is better than our effort alone. We want your help.

Some suggestions I would make would be to establish a clear set of IRC rules and to fully integrate the IRC with the onsite administration through making the NSGS Admins, and only the NSGS Admins, the IRC OPs, although the possibility of nominating IRC OPs to be Admins could also arise, if deemed necessary for administration of the IRC.

Thanks for the input. What about the reverse of that final procedure, whereby the admins would nominate additional IRC OPs? We've already done that to an extent. While there's been some merit, it hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows, so there's probably a tweak or larger change to be made.

[The Nihilistic view]

Much more than things like doxing and an underground channel would just start up. The current system is fine if you just decide to not tolerate such behaviour. I really don't think something like doxing needs to even have a rule against it in the first place. It is abuse of a real life person, it is not a game side infringement nor is as harmless as calling somebody names or swearing at them. This is not the High Court or an international legislature this is an issue of an RP taking reasonable steps to help protect it's members from those who would do harm to them.

You are just bottling it again even after NS mods have given their opinion. Ex post facto can kiss my arse in a case like this. Gameside IC things need rules to enforce them, protecting people from people that do things like this is both a responsibility and duty for NSGS Admins who have been put in a position of trust by us the playerbase.

[Arkolon]

Out of curiosity, and as a player, how would an RP ban stop any potential doxxing? An indefinite IRC ban means NWO will not be able to even access the NSG Senate community via IRC; NSG Senate is just a handful of threads in Forum 7, on a forum of a game with internal private messaging channels.

[Kamchastkia]

Out of curiosity, and as a player, how would an RP ban stop any potential doxxing? An indefinite IRC ban means NWO will not be able to even access the NSG Senate community via IRC; NSG Senate is just a handful of threads in Forum 7, on a forum of a game with internal private messaging channels.

Why punish any action then, it's not like it'll actually stop it. I mean, why should we throw people away for dealing drugs, other people will start distributing krokodil. Why put someone in prison for murder, it's not like it'll stop any potential murder. It's punitive, it shows zero tolerance, and it makes clear that there are punishments for the actions you take--which obviously this "admin" team doesn't believe in.

[Arkolon]

Out of curiosity, and as a player, how would an RP ban stop any potential doxxing? An indefinite IRC ban means NWO will not be able to even access the NSG Senate community via IRC; NSG Senate is just a handful of threads in Forum 7, on a forum of a game with internal private messaging channels.

Why punish any action then, it's not like it'll actually stop it. I mean, why should we throw people away for dealing drugs, other people will start distributing krokodil. Why put someone in prison for murder, it's not like it'll stop any potential murder. It's punitive, it shows zero tolerance, and it makes clear that there are punishments for the actions you take--which obviously this "admin" team doesn't believe in.

No, stopping people from murdering and selling drugs is pretty helpful. Stopping someone from selling drugs at a specific lamppost is not comparable. Anyway, I believe that this has been closed and that the decision is final for the reasons listed. We can now divert our attention closer to the actual RP now.

[Ikania]

Much more than things like doxing and an underground channel would just start up. The current system is fine if you just decide to not tolerate such behaviour. I really don't think something like doxing needs to even have a rule against it in the first place. It is abuse of a real life person, it is not a game side infringement nor is as harmless as calling somebody names or swearing at them. This is not the High Court or an international legislature this is an issue of an RP taking reasonable steps to help protect it's members from those who would do harm to them.

You are just bottling it again even after NS mods have given their opinion. Ex post facto can kiss my arse in a case like this. Gameside IC things need rules to enforce them, protecting people from people that do things like this is both a responsibility and duty for NSGS Admins who have been put in a position of trust by us the playerbase.

I agree. Refusing to act based on a technicality is ridiculous. We can't let someone off the hook because doxxing someone on the IRC was somehow acceptable behavior before now.

[The Nihilistic view]

Because it could say banned and the reason. Then new players know the risks in getting involved with said person. Right now if they come back new players would have no visable idea of the risks in getting involved with said person.

Secondly that any of that sort of behaviour is not going to lead to one staying around very long.

Thirdly that that the Admins care about the playerbase enough to do everything in their power to both deter such behaviour, show it will not be tolerated and that the commitment is there to protect people. It gives people an awareness they can also apply outside of the RP.

The fact the ban is only indefinite from IRC shows that the strongest possible action there has not been taken.

[Arkolon]

Salt.

As meta as that would be I'm not sure SE Asia is an important salt miner. Google reveals some in India but not much further.

For reference, anyway: electrical & electronic products, palm oil, liquefied natural gas, petroleum, chemicals, machinery, optical & scientific equipment, manufactures of metal, rubber, wood and wood products (Malaysian exports); Oil and gas, cement, food, electrical appliances, construction, plywood, textiles, rubber (Indonesian exports); Textiles, footwear, fishery products, rice, rubber, jewelry, automobiles, computers and electrical appliances (Thai exports).

So, we have salt, any other ideas we should take for a national industry? I'm thinking textiles, personally.

[The Nihilistic view]

Turbans?

[Skappola]

As meta as that would be I'm not sure SE Asia is an important salt miner. Google reveals some in India but not much further.

For reference, anyway: electrical & electronic products, palm oil, liquefied natural gas, petroleum, chemicals, machinery, optical & scientific equipment, manufactures of metal, rubber, wood and wood products (Malaysian exports); Oil and gas, cement, food, electrical appliances, construction, plywood, textiles, rubber (Indonesian exports); Textiles, footwear, fishery products, rice, rubber, jewelry, automobiles, computers and electrical appliances (Thai exports).

So, we have salt, any other ideas we should take for a national industry? I'm thinking textiles, personally.

Textiles tend to be the most common product in very low-income industrializing nations (China a couple decades ago and Bengladesh today, for example), so I think that'd be a good idea. Textiles tend to be the first "step" in industrialization, with the country diversifying to other industries as it develops. We're a bit too undeveloped for a lot of the other suggestions up there. We're about as developed as Bangladesh, which is absolutely dominated by textiles in the secondary sector (Something like 90+% of its industry is textiles).

Palm oil and perhaps rubber are also good choices for our nation's agriculture. Rice would obviously take a very important spot in our agriculture as well.

[Arkolon]

So, we have salt, any other ideas we should take for a national industry? I'm thinking textiles, personally.

Textiles tend to be the most common product in very low-income industrializing nations (China a couple decades ago and Bengladesh today, for example), so I think that'd be a good idea. Textiles tend to be the first "step" in industrialization, with the country diversifying to other industries as it develops. We're a bit too undeveloped for a lot of the other suggestions up there. We're about as developed as Bangladesh, which is absolutely dominated by textiles in the secondary sector (Something like 90+% of its industry is textiles).

Palm oil and perhaps rubber are also good choices for our nation's agriculture. Rice would obviously take a very important spot in our agriculture as well.

These are specifically exports: when the sector exports more value than it imports, the trade balance is positive, and when it imports more value than it exports the trade value is negative. The rest of the industries are assumed to be in an import/export equilibrium, or not substantially far from it. I definitely agree with textiles, but are you sure rice would be an export? It could be a large industry, but it could just enough to satisfy local demand. Palm oil is loved by foreigners, so that's a good choice as well.

[Skappola]

Two other industries that could be good for Elizia: Shipbuilding and Shipbreaking. These two industries are common in South Asian developing countries and we seem to be in a particularly good location for both industries.

[MERIZoC]

I'd imagine fishing would be important, given our geography.

[Skappola]

Textiles tend to be the most common product in very low-income industrializing nations (China a couple decades ago and Bengladesh today, for example), so I think that'd be a good idea. Textiles tend to be the first "step" in industrialization, with the country diversifying to other industries as it develops. We're a bit too undeveloped for a lot of the other suggestions up there. We're about as developed as Bangladesh, which is absolutely dominated by textiles in the secondary sector (Something like 90+% of its industry is textiles).

Palm oil and perhaps rubber are also good choices for our nation's agriculture. Rice would obviously take a very important spot in our agriculture as well.

These are specifically exports: when the sector exports more value than it imports, the trade balance is positive, and when it imports more value than it exports the trade value is negative. The rest of the industries are assumed to be in an import/export equilibrium, or not substantially far from it. I definitely agree with textiles, but are you sure rice would be an export? It could be a large industry, but it could just enough to satisfy local demand. Palm oil is loved by foreigners, so that's a good choice as well.

No, I don't think that rice would be an export, I was more just tagging it for internal consumption. But yes, palm oil and rubber would both be good choices for exports.

[Arkolon]

Two other industries that could be good for Elizia: Shipbuilding and Shipbreaking. All three industries are common in South Asian developing countries and we seem to be in a particularly good location for both industries.

A more practical question now: how would you quantify those industries for import/export?

[Skappola]

Two other industries that could be good for Elizia: Shipbuilding and Shipbreaking. All three industries are common in South Asian developing countries and we seem to be in a particularly good location for both industries.

A more practical question now: how would you quantify those industries for import/export?

Admittedly, I'm not sure, as it seems suprisingly hard to find information on it for these particular industries. I imagine it would be in equilibrium.

[Zurkerx]

I'd imagine fishing would be important, given our geography.

And agriculture too. Can't forget that.

[Maklohi Vai]

According to the Provisional Government Establishment Act, the President of Elizia is voted into office by Parliament. This is currently occurring in the Chamber because the Speaker has ICly raised it there for some reason. This is also the admins fault for not setting up the election after the passage of the bill - our apologies. Understandably we were occupied with other, more pressing matters. If it can be worked out ICly, I would like for this process to move out of the chamber so that there can simultaneously be activity on the presidential election and on chamber bills.

If this cannot be worked out ICly, your presidential nominations must be made in the Chamber ASAP. One nomination places a person on the ballot, it seems.

Here's my chamber post on it: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopi ... #p29275229

EDIT: On second thought (with Ainin and Tumbra's prompting, thank you both), it's only a two week provisional government, so it's not a big deal. We're keeping it in the Chamber, with future presidential elections to be held as usual.

[House of Judah]

*admin hat on*

After significant further discussion, the admins are upholding the ruling. For the sake of transparency, the reason why we are doing so is because banning the player in question would be to punish them ex post facto, i.e. to punish them on the basis of a law which was not a law at the time the crime was committed. This is a basic tenet of justice.

I have directly discussed with a moderator our capabilities as administrators regarding punishments for off-site infractions. I quote: "A thread OP (on a board where thread ownership is valid, such as the roleplaying boards) has the power to ban a person from their thread for any reason, including none." I accept full responsibility for not clarifying this with the moderators earlier. Nonetheless, this does not change the ruling; the rule at the time of the doxxing was that we, the administrators, would not punish people on the forums for infractions on the IRC.

We will exercise the power to administer forum-side punishments for IRC infractions starting now. The precise extent of our use of this power, for example the types of IRC infractions and the relative lengths of punishments, had not yet been determined. This is something we want the community to discuss and set expectations for, and we will follow your guide. We also want to hear from you about how we can make the IRC a more welcoming place, how we can control it better, and so on. The admins have ideas about where we want things to head, but we don't have all the answers and suspect that, on this front, a community effort is better than our effort alone. We want your help.

Sorry MV, but no dice on that. This is effectively a common law crime. Just because in the days before a criminal code can be put into effect by a government that just formed out anarchy doesn't mean that indiscriminate killing is legal until the code comes into effect. This goes way beyond an "infraction". We've all had fun playing with NWO, but she has crossed a line and should no longer be welcome in this community. Previous iteration of NSGS have had a name posted at the end of every admin started thread which was forever barred from participation. A new name needs to be added now.

[Arkolon]

A more practical question now: how would you quantify those industries for import/export?

Admittedly, I'm not sure, as it seems suprisingly hard to find information on it for these particular industries. I imagine it would be in equilibrium.

Instead of doing it like the gdoc suggested, where the Steel industry's trade balance is price of steel * steel export - price of intermediate material * steel production, I'm thinking of instead having it set as four or five "major exports" and four or five "major imports", of equal numerical value, but with fluctuating dollar values. So, concretely, we need a list of major imports as well as exports.

Exports: palm oil, textiles, rubber, _______, _______.
Imports: _______, _______, _______, _______, _______.