NSG Senate Chamber: I came, I saw, I cleaned up after myself

[Ainin]

"This House shall come to order."

"Debate on the Startup Calaverde Economic Development Act is suspended with immediate effect, while I address this whole mess."

[Argentarino]

"Then please, Mr Araullo, criticise the bill at hand, and do not fall subject to the same mistakes your colleague Mr Diaz has made in criticising a part of a bill that is factually incorrect. I am not politicking, I am saying that we have taken all necessary precautions, on the advice of Democratic Left members themselves, to close all possible loopholes in SCEDA. The only arguments I have heard come from the Opposition is about problems that are not even there. By all means, Mr Araullo, criticise the bill at hand. I am still waiting on the Opposition to begin. I am not politicking; I have been very open to criticism and very open to amendments proposed by members of the Opposition. Please avoid joining the one colleague that has stained your party's image and instead join those who work to cooperate and not to bicker."

"You mean the bill that you've been editing as we speak? I will not critique something that isn't finalized...it isn't classy. I thank the Honorable Speaker for hearing the motion."

[Zurkerx]

OOC: Well that was shit storm to read. Why do I always miss the good fights?

Dmitri walks into Parliament. He sees that the Chamber is tense and filled with energy. He has not seen Parliament like this before, even when he was Speaker.

"Damn, what did I just missed? Would anyone care to address he situation at hand here?"

[Ikania]

Kruger is asleep in his chair.

[The Danish Confederacy]

Kristiansen is just standing in a corner eating peanuts.

[Ainin]

"Mister Speaker, I am quite sure you are as fond of parliamentary procedure as I am, and as I recall, all amendments must be seconded, and then voted on for two hours. I do not believe that was the case for the Prime Minister's edits, and I would like to raise a point of order regarding them."

"That is for hostile amendments only. The chair overrules the point of order."

An aide rushed in, and spoke to Kenneth in a hushed tone. The Chief Whip nodded, and stood up again.

"Mister Speaker, it seems to me that the Right Honorable Prime Minister took a portion of the bill to the Coffee shop, in need of 'Opinions, thoughts, and criticism'. It seems to me that the Prime Minister herself is not even sure the bill is ready for chamber, and therefore I move to send the bill back to the Coffee Shop, for further edits that it most definitely needs."

"The chair rules this motion dilatory. This House cannot force a bill out of the queue without the author's consent."

"I am sorry for your constituents if this is how you react to updated legislation."

"The Prime Minister shall return to order."

"I am sorry for my constituents that you're the government."

"The Deputy Leader of the Official Opposition shall return to order."

"I am sorry for the members of this august body, having witnessed an individual try to desecrate its procedure, unlike any before. Save Boris Johnson. But he's good now."

"The member for Arecibo shall re... never mind. That's actually a potentially valid criticism."

"Motherfucking fifthed."

Pierre stares at Diego disapprovingly for two seconds.

Lykens, please read the goddamn bill. You're only embarrassing yourself.

Lykens, I know you're trying to be cute, but I talked to Atlanticatia and I closed all the loopholes. With Section 1, Articles 4, and A.

Not the place. We have an IRC channel, we have a Lobby. This is not either place. The other OOC comments were mostly questions and helpful answers, this is pointless spam that doesn't belong in the chamber.

"Now, we will resume debate on the Startup Calaverde and Economic Development Act, hopefully without all the nastiness involved."

[Ainin]

"For clarity's sake, starting from now."

Standing Order No 6 - Regarding Amendments

1
After first being presented to the Speaker, the original bill shall never be altered without the former's permission.

2
Friendly amendments to bills in queue or being debated must have their text presented in their entirety to the Speaker prior to edit. The text of a bill in queue or being debated shall never be altered without the Speaker's prior approval. The amendment shall then be announced by the author of the bill in the Chamber so that all members of the House are made aware of it. The bill shall then have the word "(Amended)" added to its short title.

3
Hostile amendments are only in order when brought against bills authored by the Speaker of the House.

4
Anyone that fails to respect this standing order is in contempt of Parliament.

[Arkolon]

Regina emits a low-tone chuckle and smirks, taking a drink from the water bottle she kept beside her.

[Zurkerx]

"I applaud the Speaker for the actions he has taken. Now, Mister Speaker, if you ever need my trusty gavel (Mjonlir), I will lend it to you. This thing can be heard all throughout the Chamber easily."

Dmitri pulls his trusty gavel out.

"It is okay I have it in here with me? It is a token of being the former Speaker ya know? If not, I will not bring it in here."

He then takes a sip of water. He adjusts himself in his chair so he's laying back a little.

"Now, the legislation at hand is alright. However, I am rather concern with some of the loopholes within this legislation. I will either be Abstaining or vote Aye depending on how condemning these loopholes are."

[Arkolon]

"Mr Covasku, could you please expand on the "loopholes" you believe there are in the SCEDA? I would like to address them."

[Zurkerx]

"Mr Covasku, could you please expand on the "loopholes" you believe there are in the SCEDA? I would like to address them."

"I am rather concern with the ' all private enterprises' part. While corporations would still have to pay the carbon tax, petroleum tax, and would not be allowed to open their headquarters in a NEZ, it still allows a corporation to gain some of the advantages off the NEZ. I just personally believe we should be helping small and start up businesses here. As for the Enterprise Investment Scheme, is an 'investment' by that individual only money or could it be anything?"

He pauses for a moment and takes a sip of water. He continues.

"As for the Work Remuneration Stimulus Programme and Employment Expansion Program, I see their potential but, I fear that this is only a temporary boost for our economy here. Are these tax breaks limited to small businesses or all? And, are these tax breaks good for that fiscal year only and then afterwards return to their normal rates? Business can only raise their wages and hire people so much here."

[Arkolon]

"Mr Covasku, could you please expand on the "loopholes" you believe there are in the SCEDA? I would like to address them."

"I am rather concern with the ' all private enterprises' part. While corporations would still have to pay the carbon tax, petroleum tax, and would not be allowed to open their headquarters in a NEZ, it still allows a corporation to gain some of the advantages off the NEZ. I just personally believe we should be helping small and start up businesses here. As for the Enterprise Investment Scheme, is an 'investment' by that individual only money or could it be anything?"

"Yes, Mr Covasku, SCEDA allows all commercial or industrial enterprises to set up shop in a New Economic Zone. Pardon me if the utilitarian argument does not get to you, but if we can provide a small tax break for, say, a multinational corporation to open a factory in the small, developing village of San Pablo -- where only the operations conducted in the NEZ would receive tax breaks-- so that that Localidad can have more jobs, more stores, more Gross Value Added, then I think it is worth it. The purpose of the NEZ programme is to help develop rural areas, and I think it does this very well-- regardless of where the CEO that helps us develop rural Calaverde was born.

And yes, it's only money. Why?"

He pauses for a moment and takes a sip of water. He continues.

"As for the Work Remuneration Stimulus Programme and Employment Expansion Program, I see their potential but, I fear that this is only a temporary boost for our economy here. Are these tax breaks limited to small businesses or all? And, are these tax breaks good for that fiscal year only and then afterwards return to their normal rates? Business can only raise their wages and hire people so much here."

The tax breaks are for all companies that grow their workforce or paychecks. Again, though, this would only apply to the operations conducted within Calaverde and not elsewhere in the world. Secondly, yes, the tax breaks are limited to that one year: if a company expands their workforce by 20% in one year, then they would receive tax breaks as to offset some of that cost. These provisions subsidise job creation and subsidise wage growth-- and they are particularly helpful for startups. A startup going from 5 employees to 6 in one year would see a workforce growth of 20%! This means that, just in tax benefits, that company has enough money to hire almost two new employees after just one year. This would be magnificent for startups and provide them with a huge leg up when growing themselves."

[Zurkerx]

"I am rather concern with the ' all private enterprises' part. While corporations would still have to pay the carbon tax, petroleum tax, and would not be allowed to open their headquarters in a NEZ, it still allows a corporation to gain some of the advantages off the NEZ. I just personally believe we should be helping small and start up businesses here. As for the Enterprise Investment Scheme, is an 'investment' by that individual only money or could it be anything?"

"Yes, Mr Covasku, SCEDA allows all commercial or industrial enterprises to set up shop in a New Economic Zone. Pardon me if the utilitarian argument does not get to you, but if we can provide a small tax break for, say, a multinational corporation to open a factory in the small, developing village of San Pablo -- where only the operations conducted in the NEZ would receive tax breaks-- so that that Localidad can have more jobs, more stores, more Gross Value Added, then I think it is worth it. The purpose of the NEZ programme is to help develop rural areas, and I think it does this very well-- regardless of where the CEO that helps us develop rural Calaverde was born.

And yes, it's only money. Why?"

"I see and I can understand where this is coming from but, I am still a little iffy on giving a corporation something like this. Regardless, I have heard both sides of the story. The reason I ask about EIS is because I thought it could be anything the investor can throw in there such as new appliances."

He pauses for a moment and takes a sip of water. He continues.

"As for the Work Remuneration Stimulus Programme and Employment Expansion Program, I see their potential but, I fear that this is only a temporary boost for our economy here. Are these tax breaks limited to small businesses or all? And, are these tax breaks good for that fiscal year only and then afterwards return to their normal rates? Business can only raise their wages and hire people so much here."

The tax breaks are for all companies that grow their workforce or paychecks. Again, though, this would only apply to the operations conducted within Calaverde and not elsewhere in the world. Secondly, yes, the tax breaks are limited to that one year: if a company expands their workforce by 20% in one year, then they would receive tax breaks as to offset some of that cost. These provisions subsidise job creation and subsidise wage growth-- and they are particularly helpful for startups. A startup going from 5 employees to 6 in one year would see a workforce growth of 20%! This means that, just in tax benefits, that company has enough money to hire almost two new employees after just one year. This would be magnificent for startups and provide them with a huge leg up when growing themselves."

"I would hope it wouldn't be outside of Calaverde. I can see how this works in the short term but, a small business can only grow so fast and I fear that with these incentives, they could possibly expand beyond their means. Tax incentives can only go so far. A corporation would not have that problem if they were to do that within Calaverde but, a developing small business may. Regardless, I will be voting Aye but, with some reluctance. If any future legislation comes up to fix some of this bill if it passes and is done properly, then I will back that legislation."

[The Saint James Islands]

Pierre stares at Diego disapprovingly for two seconds.

"Apologies, Mister Speaker," Diego said before returning to his seat, glaring at the Prime Minister disapprovingly. "Heat of the moment."

[The Nihilistic view]

"This is an a terribly unfair bill, every company should have a level tax playing field wherever they are based in the country. This New Economic Zone Programme is anti competition and puts those who are not inside one at a competitive disadvantage. It is inconceivable that every business in the country will be able to locate inside one and therefore it is a terribly unfair policy. It will not create more jobs and prosperity in the long run all it will do is make the companies in the zones the market leaders whilst those outside face decline. In the end there is no net gain only the government picking winners and losers instead of providing a level playing field and the market picking the winners and losers. It is government intervention that will heavily distort the market and also bring the risk of corruption and bribery and business desperately try and get inside a Zone so as not to be disadvantaged. For those who fail to win a place the future is bleak.

To be honest the only good idea in the bill is the wealth fund, and I think the the other 3 sections of the bill have been savaged enough already by my colleagues on the opposition benches for other reasons. Mr Speaker, the sooner this bill comes to vote, the sooner we can throw it out with the trash."

[Arkolon]

"Mr Johnson, I think you may be exaggerating the effects of the NEZ programme. It would be coupled with a halving of the business tax and a reduction in the consumption tax by 40%, so as to make the national average very similar to but still slightly higher than a NEZ1, anyway. Additionally, since the NEZ programme only taxes operations conducted within the NEZ, and these Zones are not huge in size, the SCEDA is not anti-competition since bigger producers would still have the benefit of being an economy of scale. The NEZ programme gives small and local businesses a leg up by leveling the playing field for Made In Calaverde firms. Regardless of that, anyway, the purpose of the SCEDA is to help poor regions flourish by targeting where business grows. The tax cuts in profit are mild, and the reduction in the consumption tax designates areas where consumers would begin flocking to. The effects would not be as pronounced as you make them sound even in a worst-case scenario."

[Zurkerx]

"Mr. Johnson does raise an interesting point that I didn't even think about. While the NEZ's affects may not be as bad as described, it still can lead to anti-competition within the surrounding area. Regardless, I am oppose to the government picking winners and losers and that should be minimum as possible."

[New Werpland]

Balthazar has left the building.

[Arkolon]

"Mr. Johnson does raise an interesting point that I didn't even think about. While the NEZ's affects may not be as bad as described, it still can lead to anti-competition within the surrounding area. Regardless, I am oppose to the government picking winners and losers and that should be minimum as possible."

"Mr Covasku, the NEZ programme is to stimulate the development of CBDs in Calaverde's developing regions. Even without government interference, these CBDs would develop themselves over time, but at a much slower place, and their success is far from guaranteed. Once the free market forms a CBD, it is by definition a better place to conduct business than anywhere else in a town or city. SCEDA just makes CBDs develop much, much quicker and ensures their success and proper fruition. Mr Covasku, in reality, the SCEDA is no more anti-competition than the free market itself-- which is to say that the SCEDA is not that anti-competition at all."

[The Nihilistic view]

"Mr. Johnson does raise an interesting point that I didn't even think about. While the NEZ's affects may not be as bad as described, it still can lead to anti-competition within the surrounding area. Regardless, I am oppose to the government picking winners and losers and that should be minimum as possible."

"Mr Covasku, the NEZ programme is to stimulate the development of CBDs in Calaverde's developing regions. Even without government interference, these CBDs would develop themselves over time, but at a much slower place, and their success is far from guaranteed. Once the free market forms a CBD, it is by definition a better place to conduct business than anywhere else in a town or city. SCEDA just makes CBDs develop much, much quicker and ensures their success and proper fruition. Mr Covasku, in reality, the SCEDA is no more anti-competition than the free market itself-- which is to say that the SCEDA is not that anti-competition at all."

"Even you concede it's at least a bit anti competition. There are ways to create thriving CBDs without putting firms outside them at a competitive disadvantage from a cost perspective or establishing them without so much government interference and control.

Secondly do the people in rural areas want to have industrial centers dumped on them by the government or are they perfectly happy as they are with their current way of life in the countryside working the land. These things would go much smoother if they are allowed to develop of their own accord rather than forced on people who might prefer their current way of life. What of the farmers or other people already living in the areas the zones will go? Will they be forcible displaced? Will the tax breaks be given to them as they are there already?

The more you try and argue for the bill the more problems and questions it brings up in my mind. That is very rare I fine with legislation and indicates to me it's not properly thought through."

[Arkolon]

"Mr Covasku, the NEZ programme is to stimulate the development of CBDs in Calaverde's developing regions. Even without government interference, these CBDs would develop themselves over time, but at a much slower place, and their success is far from guaranteed. Once the free market forms a CBD, it is by definition a better place to conduct business than anywhere else in a town or city. SCEDA just makes CBDs develop much, much quicker and ensures their success and proper fruition. Mr Covasku, in reality, the SCEDA is no more anti-competition than the free market itself-- which is to say that the SCEDA is not that anti-competition at all."

"Even you concede it's at least a bit anti competition. There are ways to create thriving CBDs without putting firms outside them at a competitive disadvantage from a cost perspective or establishing them without so much government interference and control.

Secondly do the people in rural areas want to have industrial centers dumped on them by the government or are they perfectly happy as they are with their current way of life in the countryside working the land. These things would go much smoother if they are allowed to develop of their own accord rather than forced on people who might prefer their current way of life. What of the farmers or other people already living in the areas the zones will go? Will they be forcible displaced? Will the tax breaks be given to them as they are there already?

The more you try and argue for the bill the more problems and questions it brings up in my mind. That is very rare I fine with legislation and indicates to me it's not properly thought through."

"Mr Johnson, I admitted that markets are only perfectly competitive in theory and that theory does not stand true in the real world. As I mentioned to Mr Covasku, the SCEDA is no more anti-competition than the free market itself-- and the free market is the closest we can get to maximal competition. But please, if you say there are ways to make thriving CBDs, could you list me them, or perhaps propose an amendment right here. I see the Chamber as a place to improve the nation collectively, not to bicker, so I always welcome constructive commentary and criticism from the opposition bench.

Additionally, Mr Johnson, you should take note that the bill specifically mentions that NEZs are designated at the request of the local municipalities, so if local municipalities do not wish to have a NEZ, then they may as well just ... not ask for one."

[Nova Anglicana]

"Mr Covasku, the NEZ programme is to stimulate the development of CBDs in Calaverde's developing regions. Even without government interference, these CBDs would develop themselves over time, but at a much slower place, and their success is far from guaranteed. Once the free market forms a CBD, it is by definition a better place to conduct business than anywhere else in a town or city. SCEDA just makes CBDs develop much, much quicker and ensures their success and proper fruition. Mr Covasku, in reality, the SCEDA is no more anti-competition than the free market itself-- which is to say that the SCEDA is not that anti-competition at all."

"Even you concede it's at least a bit anti competition. There are ways to create thriving CBDs without putting firms outside them at a competitive disadvantage from a cost perspective or establishing them without so much government interference and control.

Secondly do the people in rural areas want to have industrial centers dumped on them by the government or are they perfectly happy as they are with their current way of life in the countryside working the land. These things would go much smoother if they are allowed to develop of their own accord rather than forced on people who might prefer their current way of life. What of the farmers or other people already living in the areas the zones will go? Will they be forcible displaced? Will the tax breaks be given to them as they are there already?

The more you try and argue for the bill the more problems and questions it brings up in my mind. That is very rare I fine with legislation and indicates to me it's not properly thought through."

Senator Agustín Tejeda, having somehow been re-elected, rises to agree with Mr. Johnson.

"The shared history of Latin America has shown us that when big business comes to the countryside, it dominates the land and its people. While I believe that our more rural areas (including my constituency) deserve to share in the prosperity of modernity, we cannot sacrifice our homes and our land to make way for business. I have concerns about the rapacious and expansionist nature of business in the countryside. I do not wish for my constituents to be reduced to laborers, whether for large landowners or industry. There is dignity in owning and working one's own land and it must be preserved."

[The Danish Confederacy]

"You know what? Screw this, I am out" says Håvard Theodor Tormod Kristiansen as he leaves the building.

[New Werpland]

"You know what? Screw this, I am out" says Håvard Theodor Tormod Kristiansen as he leaves the building.

Balthazar bumps into him one his way back into the building, spilling his sticky Lemonade all over Håvard's front.

[The Danish Confederacy]

"You know what? Screw this, I am out" says Håvard Theodor Tormod Kristiansen as he leaves the building.

Balthazar bumps into him one his way back into the building, spilling his sticky Lemonade all over Håvard's front.

"Well, This is unfortunate. Good thing I had a chocolate bar in my pocket" Håvard says before squishing a melted chocolate bar on Balthazar's suit/shirt.