NSG Senate Coffee Shop: We don't serve decaf

[Great Nepal]

I am interested, TLT, in what nation has outlawed conscription? Few have. That is because few nations are capable of winning a war without it.

You have got that backwards, 105 nations have no enforced conscription while nineteen further have no (or very limited) armed forces at all. Nations such as Russia, China and Iran are prominent in their conscription and I would argue these aren't nations we wish to emulate.

[Arkolon]

No you cannot obey the law if you fundamentally disagree with it. If your loyalty lies with another nation, and you act upon it, that is high treason.

I am interested, TLT, in what nation has outlawed conscription? Few have. That is because few nations are capable of winning a war without it.

So maybe they should figure out how to win a war without conscription, because throwing bodies at an invading enemy won't work.

Every traditional war can be reduced to throwing bodies at an invading enemy. It's how wars have always worked. You just have to pray your guys know how to kill people faster than the others do, and sometimes size beats training efficiency.

[The Liberated Territories]

Oh please, stop with this false comparison. You can obey the law, and the law will leave you alone, whether you are rich or poor. But even the poor can't refuse something like national service.

No you cannot obey the law if you fundamentally disagree with it. If your loyalty lies with another nation, and you act upon it, that is high treason.

I am interested, TLT, in what nation has outlawed conscription? Few have. That is because few nations are capable of winning a war without it.

Moving the goalposts won't get you anywhere. You very much know I am arguing against compulsory conscription and that most nations do not enforce their conscription laws anymore.

For most of history nationstates relied on a professional army. Not only that, but all the wars that have been "funded" by conscription had seen the highest fatality rates. Who "won" WW1 really?

[Great Nepal]

Since when do we imprison people for no action except for being resident of the nation?

For not paying taxes.

Failure to pay tax is a voluntary choice and an action - I specifically stated for no action other than being resident of the nation. A person who takes no other voluntary action apart from being resident of the nation can be conscripted.

[Estva]

I am interested, TLT, in what nation has outlawed conscription? Few have. That is because few nations are capable of winning a war without it.

You have got that backwards, 105 nations have no enforced conscription while nineteen further have no (or very limited) armed forces at all. Nations such as Russia, China and Iran are prominent in their conscription and I would argue these aren't nations we wish to emulate.

No, those states do not have currently enforced conscription. The US can still conscript, yet is marked as having "abolished" the draft. Those states "with conscription" have peacetime conscription.

I don't understand what you hate about the idea so much. It would have to be passed through the Senate, just as a bill requiring conscription would.

[Estva]

For not paying taxes.

Failure to pay tax is a voluntary choice and an action - I specifically stated for no action other than being resident of the nation. A person who takes no other voluntary action apart from being resident of the nation can be conscripted.

Failure to pay tax is not an action. It is an inaction. Paying taxes is a forceful obligation the state pushes on its citizens. A resident who takes no voluntary action apart from being a resident can be imprisoned.

[Estva]

Moving the goalposts won't get you anywhere. You very much know I am arguing against compulsory conscription and that most nations do not enforce their conscription laws anymore.

They do not enforce" conscription because they do not have peacetime conscription, which is an entirely different issue.

For most of history nationstates relied on a professional army. Not only that, but all the wars that have been "funded" by conscription had seen the highest fatality rates. Who "won" WW1 really?

"You know what a professional army is right? It is an army made up of professional soldiers, which can be conscripts. During WW2 Germany, the US, UK, and Japan all relied heavily on conscripts. Which of these wars do you think was funded by only volunteers?

[The Liberated Territories]

Moving the goalposts won't get you anywhere. You very much know I am arguing against compulsory conscription and that most nations do not enforce their conscription laws anymore.

They do not enforce" conscription because they do not have peacetime conscription, which is an entirely different issue.

For most of history nationstates relied on a professional army. Not only that, but all the wars that have been "funded" by conscription had seen the highest fatality rates. Who "won" WW1 really?

"You know what a professional army is right? It is an army made up of professional soldiers, which can be conscripts. During WW2 Germany, the US, UK, and Japan all relied heavily on conscripts. Which of these wars do you think was funded by only volunteers?

Redundant.

Professional comes from "profession" which translates to "career." The common use of "professional army" means an army full of volunteer or career soldiers.

Why do I care?

[Estva]

Redundant.

It isn't redundant because you don't seem to grasp the difference. Those states do not practice peacetime conscription. During a major war, it is pretty much accepted by everyone they will resume conscription. Thats how it is in the US, and I'm fairly certain that's how it is in the UK.

Professional comes from "profession" which translates to "career." The common use of "professional army" means an army full of volunteer or career soldiers.

"A standing army is a permanent, often professional, army. It is composed of full-time soldiers (who may be either career soldiers or conscripts)
A professional army is composed of full-time soldiers, not career soldiers. This is contrasted with militia, and reserves, who are not full-time.

Why do I care?

You are the one who brought it up in the first place.

[The Liberated Territories]

Redundant.

It isn't redundant because you don't seem to grasp the difference. Those states do not practice peacetime conscription. During a major war, it is pretty much accepted by everyone they will resume conscription. Thats how it is in the US, and I'm fairly certain that's how it is in the UK.

Professional comes from "profession" which translates to "career." The common use of "professional army" means an army full of volunteer or career soldiers.

"A standing army is a permanent, often professional, army. It is composed of full-time soldiers (who may be either career soldiers or conscripts)
A professional army is composed of full-time soldiers, not career soldiers. This is contrasted with militia, and reserves, who are not full-time.

Why do I care?

You are the one who brought it up in the first place.

I'm sure it is. But "because everyone else is doing it" is not an argument.

Wikipedia also defines in as the opposite of a conscripted army, a la Rousseau, on their conscription article.

More: https://books.google.com/books?id=kcvse ... my&f=false

[Estva]

I'm sure it is. But "because everyone else is doing it" is not an argument.

That's not what I am arguing. I am arguing they do this for a reason.

Wikipedia also defines in as the opposite of a conscripted army, a la Rousseau, on their conscription article.

More: https://books.google.com/books?id=kcvse ... my&f=false

Then if we are using that definition of professional army, they were certainly not used in the major wars. They were used for colonial expansion, revolt suppression, and small order conflicts with weak states. Not wars with states of similar size.

[Lykens]

How about a compromise?

Since our military will be a defense force, and only that, we only allow conscription if we're ever invaded by another nation?

[Estva]

How about a compromise?

Since our military will be a defense force, and only that, we only allow conscription if we're ever invaded by another nation?

Very well, I'll add that in. That was my intention for its use to begin with.

[Skeckoa]

How about a compromise?

Since our military will be a defense force, and only that, we only allow conscription if we're ever invaded by another nation?

How about no. THe only people are army will ever be fighting are domestic terror groups. Potentially.

[Lykens]

How about a compromise?

Since our military will be a defense force, and only that, we only allow conscription if we're ever invaded by another nation?

How about no. THe only people are army will ever be fighting are domestic terror groups. Potentially.

If our troops will be fighting domestic terror groups, I'd prefer if they were professional soldiers, not random joes given a gun and told to shoot.

[The Liberated Territories]

If our citizens were well ARMED *coughliberalscough* we wouldn't probably need conscription if we were invaded, but regardless, I feel like the senate is with me in striking this bill down unless some serious revisions are made.

[Estva]

How about a compromise?

Since our military will be a defense force, and only that, we only allow conscription if we're ever invaded by another nation?

How about no. THe only people are army will ever be fighting are domestic terror groups. Potentially.

A volunteer force is sufficient to fight domestic terrorism. Should a neighbor ever be taken over by radicals, we should have a provision in place to ensure an invasion by them does not destroy us.

[Kralta]

Failure to pay tax is a voluntary choice and an action - I specifically stated for no action other than being resident of the nation. A person who takes no other voluntary action apart from being resident of the nation can be conscripted.

Failure to pay tax is not an action. It is an inaction. Paying taxes is a forceful obligation the state pushes on its citizens. A resident who takes no voluntary action apart from being a resident can be imprisoned.

In my experience, people "fail" to pay taxes by intentionally misleading the tax collectors of their income. That seems like an action to me.

[Estva]

Failure to pay tax is not an action. It is an inaction. Paying taxes is a forceful obligation the state pushes on its citizens. A resident who takes no voluntary action apart from being a resident can be imprisoned.

In my experience, people "fail" to pay taxes by intentionally misleading the tax collectors of their income. That seems like an action to me.

Misdirection is an action. If Ii receive my tax notification, and simply do not pay the taxes, that is inaction. Paying taxes is an obligation to the state.

[Skeckoa]

How about no. The only people are army will ever be fighting are domestic terror groups. Potentially.

If our troops will be fighting domestic terror groups, I'd prefer if they were professional soldiers, not random joes given a gun and told to shoot.

AKA, 18-20 males who would rather be somewhere else and were given a gun to shoot (or just do boring regiment training). I can't tell if you are for or against, but a volunteer army is more than sufficient.

[Lykens]

If our troops will be fighting domestic terror groups, I'd prefer if they were professional soldiers, not random joes given a gun and told to shoot.

AKA, 18-20 males who would rather be somewhere else and were given a gun to shoot (or just do boring regiment training). I can't tell if you are for or against, but a volunteer army is more than sufficient.

I think I misunderstood you before, and I don't think I understand what you're saying now.

Can you clarify?

[Belmaria]

Substance Enforcement Guidelines Act (SEGA)
| Authors: Belmaria (FCP) | Great Nepal (LDP) |
| Sponsors: Sebastianbourg (NPF) | The Neo-Confederate States of America (LDP) | The Liberated Territories (FCP) | New Zepuha (FCP) | Skeckoa (FCP) |

§1 On Alcohols and Alcoholic Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of alcohol or alcoholic substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of alcohols or alcoholic substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of alcohol or alcoholic substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of alcohol by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§2 On Marijuana and Marijuana-Containing Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of Calaverde.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§3 On Hypnotics, Psychedelics, Hallucinogens, and Sedatives (HPHS)
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.
iv. Preventing the sale, consumption, or otherwise distribution of any HPHS or HPHS-containing substance to individuals without a physician-issued prescription for the drug or substance, if required by any legislation passed by the legislative body of Calaverde.

Guis, guis, guis, I need sponsors pls.

[MERIZoC]

Substance Enforcement Guidelines Act (SEGA)
| Authors: Belmaria (FCP) | Great Nepal (LDP)
| Sponsors: Sebastianbourg (NPF) | The Neo-Confederate States of America (LDP) |

§1 On Alcohols and Alcoholic Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of alcohol or alcoholic substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of alcohols or alcoholic substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of alcohol or alcoholic substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of alcohol by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§2 On Marijuana and Marijuana-Containing Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of Calaverde.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§2 On Hypnotics, Psychedelics, Hallucinogens, and Sedatives (HPHS)
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.
iv. Preventing the sale, consumption, or otherwise distribution of any HPHS or HPHS-containing substance to individuals without a physician-issued prescription for the drug or substance, if required by any legislation passed by the legislative body of Calaverde.

Guis, guis, guis, I need sponsors pls.

Opposed due to subclauses 2.

[Belmaria]

Substance Enforcement Guidelines Act (SEGA)
| Authors: Belmaria (FCP) | Great Nepal (LDP)
| Sponsors: Sebastianbourg (NPF) | The Neo-Confederate States of America (LDP) |

§1 On Alcohols and Alcoholic Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of alcohol or alcoholic substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of alcohols or alcoholic substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of alcohol or alcoholic substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of alcohol by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§2 On Marijuana and Marijuana-Containing Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of Calaverde.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§3 On Hypnotics, Psychedelics, Hallucinogens, and Sedatives (HPHS)
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.
iv. Preventing the sale, consumption, or otherwise distribution of any HPHS or HPHS-containing substance to individuals without a physician-issued prescription for the drug or substance, if required by any legislation passed by the legislative body of Calaverde.

Guis, guis, guis, I need sponsors pls.

Opposed due to subclauses 2.

Opposed due to marijuana legalization? What?

[The Liberated Territories]

Substance Enforcement Guidelines Act (SEGA)
| Authors: Belmaria (FCP) | Great Nepal (LDP)
| Sponsors: Sebastianbourg (NPF) | The Neo-Confederate States of America (LDP) |

§1 On Alcohols and Alcoholic Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of alcohol or alcoholic substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of alcohols or alcoholic substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of alcohol or alcoholic substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of alcohol by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§2 On Marijuana and Marijuana-Containing Substances
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of Calaverde.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of marijuana or marijuana-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.

§3 On Hypnotics, Psychedelics, Hallucinogens, and Sedatives (HPHS)
The national government of Calaverde shall not prohibit sale of or consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by any individual, group, organization or business unless for the explicit purposes of:
i. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances to individuals under the age of majority, which, unless otherwise defined, shall be 18.
ii. Preventing sale of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances which are deemed unsafe for human consumption by the legislative body of the nation.
iii. Preventing the forced consumption of HPHS or HPHS-containing substances by parties deemed malicious by a court of law.
iv. Preventing the sale, consumption, or otherwise distribution of any HPHS or HPHS-containing substance to individuals without a physician-issued prescription for the drug or substance, if required by any legislation passed by the legislative body of Calaverde.

Guis, guis, guis, I need sponsors pls.

Sponsor.