NSG Senate Lobby: Four Scones and Seven Pastries Ago

[Yanalia]

I think that, if we are giving the right of self-determination to the Ukrainian people, the same right should be extended to the Crimeans and ethnic Russians of the Ukraine.

Yes, so the Crimeans should have fair elections and a fair nationwide secession referendum (in accordance with the requirements set forth in the Constitution of Ukraine).

If you truly support self-determination you would not support the current illegitimate Crimean government. A government appointed in a session of parliament being surrounded by armed pro-Russian militants is not one that has the air of legitimacy, nor is having a Crimean Prime Minister from a party that received less than 5% of the vote.

While Russian Unity received only 4% of the vote, the most represented pro Ukrainian party won only 7%. The Party of Regions won 49% of the vote, with the Communist Party another 7, the Union Party 5, all pro Russia/anti Maidan parties. So it isn't a sudden about-face or surprising turnaround.

[Mediciano]

Don't demonize Putin like all the other Western peons. He has done great things for the Russian state and people, and can be no more condemned than Obama or Merkel. That is not to say he is without faults, but rather that his faults are not greater than those of countless others on the international stage.

Great things for the Russian state like imprisoning any opponents of his agenda?

I'm glad that's never happened in Europe. Someone should really tell Brigitte Bardot, David Irving, Michel Houellebecq, Dieudonné M'bala M'bala, and countless others who have been imprisoned by laws limiting freedom of speech in the EU. Russia is not better than any of them, but it certainly isn't worse.

[Oneracon]

Great things for the Russian state like imprisoning any opponents of his agenda?

I'm glad that's never happened in Europe. Someone should really tell Brigitte Bardot, David Irving, Michel Houellebecq, Dieudonné M'bala M'bala, and countless others who have been imprisoned by laws limiting freedom of speech in the EU. Russia is not better than any of them, but it certainly isn't worse.

None of those people you named have been imprisoned.

[Mediciano]

I'm glad that's never happened in Europe. Someone should really tell Brigitte Bardot, David Irving, Michel Houellebecq, Dieudonné M'bala M'bala, and countless others who have been imprisoned by laws limiting freedom of speech in the EU. Russia is not better than any of them, but it certainly isn't worse.

None of those people you named have been imprisoned.

They've all been persecuted for their political views and expression (which is, I'll point out, in violation of the EU Charter on Fundamental Rights, Article 11:1).

[Oneracon]

None of those people you named have been imprisoned.

They've all been persecuted (which is, I'll point out, in violation of the EU Charter on Fundamental Rights, Article 11:1).

Please don't shift the goalposts. None of those people you named were imprisoned, they were (at worst) fined.

[Mediciano]

They've all been persecuted (which is, I'll point out, in violation of the EU Charter on Fundamental Rights, Article 11:1).

Please don't shift the goalposts. None of those people you named were imprisoned, they were (at worst) fined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Prosecutions_and_convictions

Take your pick. I was simply trying to give recognizable names, but if you really want to see imprisonment, just read that list. Those people all denied the Holocaust which, while certainly objectionable on a moral and historical standpoint, falls within the realm of free speech.

[Ainin]

None of those people you named have been imprisoned.

They've all been persecuted for their political views and expression (which is, I'll point out, in violation of the EU Charter on Fundamental Rights, Article 11:1).

"Nothing in this Charter shall be interpreted as restricting or adversely affecting human rights and fundamental freedoms as recognised, in their respective fields of application, by Union law and international law and by international agreements to which the Union or all the Member States are party, including the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, and by the Member States' constitutions."
- Article 53, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union

"Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law."
- Article 20, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (signed and ratified by all EU Member-states)

Selective reading is bad, Mr. Minister.

[Ainin]

Furthermore, the European Court of Human Rights has declared laws against denial or minimisation of genocides or crimes against humanity as perfectly acceptable, and the Council of Europe has actually advised member states to enact hate speech laws, under Recommendation R (97) 20.

[Mediciano]

They've all been persecuted for their political views and expression (which is, I'll point out, in violation of the EU Charter on Fundamental Rights, Article 11:1).

"Nothing in this Charter shall be interpreted as restricting or adversely affecting human rights and fundamental freedoms as recognised, in their respective fields of application, by Union law and international law and by international agreements to which the Union or all the Member States are party, including the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, and by the Member States' constitutions."
- Article 53, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union

"Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law."
- Article 20, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (signed and ratified by all EU Member-states)

Selective reading is bad, Mr. Minister.

What is your point? I would agree that they are contradictory, but the EU Charter trumps individually signed (with reservations, in some cases) international legislation. The ICCPR is a very non-binding treaty.

[Malgrave]

I call for the immediate resignation Marius Kruger for his horrific defence of holocaust denial and failing that I call for the Prime Minister to remove him from his Ministerial position.

[Mediciano]

I call for the immediate resignation Marius Kruger for his horrific defence of holocaust denial and failing that I call for the Prime Minister to remove him from his Ministerial position.

Wat.

[Ainin]

What is your point?

That your claim that it's in violation of Article 11 is wrong.

I would agree that they are contradictory,

The ICCPR takes precedence over the Charter on Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, which the Charter itself says.

but the EU Charter trumps individually signed (with reservations, in some cases) international legislation.

The bloody EU charter literally says that it doesn't.

[New Zepuha]

I call for the immediate resignation Marius Kruger for his horrific defence of holocaust denial and failing that I call for the Prime Minister to remove him from his Ministerial position.

Aye, seconded.

[Ainin]

The ICCPR is a very non-binding treaty.

"The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations."
-Part 1, Article 1, ICCPR

"The present Covenant shall enter into force three months after the date of the deposit with the Secretary-General of the United Nations of the thirty-fifth instrument of ratification or instrument of accession."
-Part 4, Article 49, ICCPR

"The provisions of the present Covenant shall extend to all parts of federal States without any limitations or exceptions."
-Part 4, Article 50, ICCPR

[Mediciano]

The bloody EU charter literally says that it doesn't.

I'll concede, as I was unaware of that clause. Regardless, there are too many anti-free speech laws in Europe to give the EU any right to criticize Russia.

[Oneracon]

I call for the immediate resignation Marius Kruger for his horrific defence of holocaust denial and failing that I call for the Prime Minister to remove him from his Ministerial position.

Aye, seconded.

Seconded as well.

[Mediciano]

I call for the immediate resignation Marius Kruger for his horrific defence of holocaust denial and failing that I call for the Prime Minister to remove him from his Ministerial position.

I said it fell under freedom of speech and political expression, I didn't defend it. I think Holocaust denial is as sickening an ideology as the next person.

[Ainin]

Aye, seconded.

Seconded as well.

Fourthed, or whatever.

[Yanalia]

Seconded as well.

Fourthed, or whatever.

Fifthed.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

SWIM recommends, if ever buying ecstasy, to stay away from the Obama pill stamp.

[Oneracon]

The bloody EU charter literally says that it doesn't.

I'll concede, as I was unaware of that clause. Regardless, there are too many anti-free speech laws in Europe to give the EU any right to criticize Russia.

Sure.

I mean just ask all those critics of European governments that are languishing in prison cells, swept away in black vans, arrested for protesting peacefully, or horse-whipped by law enforcement. Truly a quagmire of oppression.

[Ainin]

Regardless, there are too many anti-free speech laws in Europe to give the EU any right to criticize Russia.

Free speech isn't absolute. What Russia is doing isn't stopping incitement to discrimination through anti-hate laws, which the UN, EU and international community as a whole all condone, it's arbitrarily throwing dissidents in jail.

[Geilinor]

The bloody EU charter literally says that it doesn't.

I'll concede, as I was unaware of that clause. Regardless, there are too many anti-free speech laws in Europe to give the EU any right to criticize Russia.

People who criticize the government don't get thrown in prison in the EU.

[Unicario]

Fourthed, or whatever.

Fifthed.

Sixth'd.

[Uiiop]

I call for a Counter to protect Marius Kruger's position. It's a free speech concern denying the holocaust although it might look like it doesn't always mean an attempt to commit hate speech. Questioning the historic record (This is a clear-cut case however of the record being right) or raising BS concerns are reasons holocaust denial could be said. How about we just put hate speech laws in and arrest the Deniers who fit in those to avoid redundancy.